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The points were two:

1. Using the existing electricity infrastructure better by making it LEGAL to use an existing 240v socket to charge an EV ... would be a good thing.

2. Being able to BUY a LEGAL 240v plug-in EVSE (not build an illegal interface), ... would also be good.

There are many excuses why this should not be done, but they are not really technical. An existing socket could be replaced without a building permit. But "regulations", however well-meaning, are sometimes more "political" than "technical".

For "other rules", look at what the rest of the world does, successfully.

In any case, isn't it a bit strange if we have millions of "charge points" already existing, and somebody thought it would be better to make them illegal to use instead of finding a creative way to make them "sufficiently" safely usably?

Note: the National Electrical Code (NEC) article 625 (for EV charging) might actually allow an "indoor-use", sufficiently-interlocked EVSE (or charger) to be NOT hard-wired.
 
The existing charge points I use are legal avcon and paddle chargers. These need to remain for legacy vehicles or they will need adaptors. What and where are the charge points that you mention? Here in the US with all the lawyers and non-thinking and planing consumers, y
You think a 40A 240 live cord is a safe idea on a garage floor? If there is going to be a legal cord for portable use then someone will do it if allowed if there is demand but who cares if the few that want one can make one Also, if this were the case right off the bat there would be less pressure to get more charge points installed in more locations.
 
EVDRIVER said:
The existing charge points I use are legal avcon and paddle chargers. These need to remain for legacy vehicles or they will need adaptors. What and where are the charge points that you mention? Here in the US with all the lawyers and non-thinking and planing consumers, y
You think a 40A 240 live cord is a safe idea on a garage floor? If there is going to be a legal cord for portable use then someone will do it if allowed if there is demand but who cares if the few that want one can make one Also, if this were the case right off the bat there would be less pressure to get more charge points installed in more locations.

who said anythng about a live cord? He (and I) are just asking for 240V 30-50A dryer type outlets to be availble, you would supply your own 240V EVSE, if you have one. Joe Consumer is not going to have one, so it won't matter to him. These would use Dryer or Welding outlets (30 to 50A), and you would have to set the maximum current allowed manually on the portable 240V EVSE adapter. (that you take with you)
 
Who makes (will make) money on charge points?
Who benefits if you cannot legally charge from a dryer socket?
Making one, no matter how well done, is NOT a legal solution, at this point.
 
garygid said:
Who makes (will make) money on charge points?
Who benefits if you cannot legally charge from a dryer socket?
Making one, no matter how well done, is NOT a legal solution, at this point.

The 240V EVSE adapter would likely be used when you are traveling or visting a friend, some motels may have the outlets for their in wall AC units, your buddy may have an electric dryer. Also, there are for profit companies ALREADY in the charge point business, they mostly have level 1 out now, but I am sure they will have many level 2 charge points, as EV's become more popular, click on the link, will show you ones near your IP address, if there are any:

http://www.chargepointportal.net/index.php/device/devicelocation.html
 
If I drive the EV to Temecula to visit a friend and see the festival, I would like to be able to plug into his dryer plug for 4 hours, instead of using the 120 for 16 to 18 hours, or waiting to make the trip until sufficient "public" chargers are installed.

Charging at his home is a LOT more convenient that using a downtown charger and walking the 5 miles to his house or getting him to pick me up. Even if this "public" charger exists, it might be occupied, even a waiting line. Then, when my Leaf is sufficiently charged there (maybe 4 or 8 hours later), I should go back and move my car so that others can e-fuel.

Maybe such use sounds "unreal" to you, but it is quite real to me.

Yes, I have actual EV-using and "remote" charging experience.
 
Many of the "public" chargers are reported to be "broken".

None that I have seen listed on-line are J1772 equipped, and 120 sockets are generally not listed even if they exist.

So, right now, the real, usable, often-available source of electricity, for both routine and emergency charging, is in existing homes, occupied by kind people.
 
garygid said:
If I drive the EV to Temecula to visit a friend and see the festival, I would like to be able to plug into his dryer plug for 4 hours, instead of using the 120 for 16 to 18 hours, or waiting to make the trip until sufficient "public" chargers are installed.

I think this is one of those cases where the idea of catering to the lowest common denominator (that it should be idiot proof) actually is the problem. I'd just say hack a EVSE if you know what you are doing and be very careful.
 
Again, I could be illegal, but most folks, including myself, do NOT WANT illegal.

A legal solution, easily available to all, would be better.

Which would you like to pay (thev$2200 or so) for?

1. AV's EVSE hardwired in your garage. Illegal to un-wire and use elsewhere.

2. The same EVSE hung on a hook in the same spot, easily portable but wired to a plug that plugs into a newly-installed 240v socket there. And, it can be un-plugged and legally used (perhaps with a short adapter) at MANY other locations. Even at the other side of a 3-car garage.

How long is AV's EVSE-to-car cable?
It looks like one can unplug it from the EVSE and then buy a longer "J1772" fueling cable if needed.
What is the max length available from AV?
Enough to charge a car at the curb?

No, a build-it-yourself cable is probably not legal, since it appears that all the "components", right up to (but not including) the charge socket on the car, must be "listed" (and possibly "stickered").
 
garygid said:
Again, I could be illegal, but most folks, including myself, do NOT WANT illegal.

A legal solution, easily available to all, would be better.

Which would you like to pay (thev$2200 or so) for?

1. AV's EVSE hardwired in your garage. Illegal to un-wire and use elsewhere.

2. The same EVSE hung on a hook in the same spot, easily portable but wired to a plug that plugs into a newly-installed 240v socket there. And, it can be un-plugged and legally used (perhaps with a short adapter) at MANY other locations. Even at the other side of a 3-car garage.

How long is AV's EVSE-to-car cable?




Illegal- ok, so your friends are going to call the electrical police? LOL. Cut a cord, make an adaptor in 5 minutes and be done with it. Peole have been doing it for more than 10 years with no issue, let's not raise one now. Jeeze, do you walk outside the crosswalk lines:)
It looks like one can unplug it from the EVSE and then buy a longer "J1772" fueling cable if needed.
What is the max length available from AV?
Enough to charge a car at the curb?

No, a build-it-yourself cable is probably not legal, since it appears that all the "components", right up to (but not including) the charge socket on the car, must be "listed" (and possibly "stickered").
 
garygid said:
Again, I could be illegal, but most folks, including myself, do NOT WANT illegal.

A legal solution, easily available to all, would be better.

Which would you like to pay (thev$2200 or so) for?

1. AV's EVSE hardwired in your garage. Illegal to un-wire and use elsewhere.

2. The same EVSE hung on a hook in the same spot, easily portable but wired to a plug that plugs into a newly-installed 240v socket there. And, it can be un-plugged and legally used (perhaps with a short adapter) at MANY other locations. Even at the other side of a 3-car garage.

How long is AV's EVSE-to-car cable?




Illegal- ok, so your friends are going to call the electrical police? LOL. Cut a cord, make an adaptor in 5 minutes and be done with it. Peole have been doing it for more than 10 years with no issue, let's not raise one now. Jeeze, do you walk outside the crosswalk lines:)
It looks like one can unplug it from the EVSE and then buy a longer "J1772" fueling cable if needed.
What is the max length available from AV?
Enough to charge a car at the curb?

No, a build-it-yourself cable is probably not legal, since it appears that all the "components", right up to (but not including) the charge socket on the car, must be "listed" (and possibly "stickered").
 
EVDRIVER said:
The boxes are a complete rip off, yes. In a while you will be able to buy these with the cord for about $600 I bet. The ones rated for outdoor use are more costly.
I'm afraid you have totally missed the point here. You will not be charged anywhere near $2200 for "the box". I would be surprised if the hardware part was even close to $600. What you are paying for is service. Here is what Nissan says:
FAQ: We expect the standard home charging dock installation to be around $2,200, but this will vary with the age and configuration of your home.
[highlighting added] Now, listen to what the associated video says:
... a certified electrician will visit your home and determine the best way to install the charging dock. The quote will vary based on the age and configuration of your home. ... Now that you've received your quote it's time to install. ... On the day you choose, the electrician will come to your home and install the charging dock. He will run a dedicated 240 V circuit from your electrical panel to the garage then mount the charging dock. Finally the electrician will run diagnostic tests to make sure your dock is working properly.
This doesn't sound like a rip off to me if the cost includes two home visits by a professional, and running in-wall conduit (as the video shows) from your breaker box to where the EVSE will be mounted.
 
If plug-in installation is allowed:

1. Old style dryer:
To use the old-style NEMA 10-30R (receptacle) dryer "socket" is problematic. Although this 3-pin plug has a Neutral, it does not have a Ground ... that the EVSE most likely "requires". Of course, illegal users might be tempted to use the Neutral as Ground, but that is not usually recommended.

2. New-style (last 14 years) dryer:
The newer 4-pin NEMA 14-30R "socket" (receptacle) is used, which includes both Neutral and Ground pins. This should work fine.

In either case, the 30-amp breaker limits the legal maximum "continuous" current that should be drawn from the circuit to 24 amps (80% of 30 amps).

An adapter could be made to add a ground wire to the 3 wires (minimum #10 gauge wires) coming from an older 3-pin plug, and running them to a 4-pin 50-amp female twistlock.

Then, other similar adapters could be made, so that other sockets could be used.

Finally, the cord to the EVSE could have a male 50-amp twistlock, to mate with the selected adapter.

More later when I get more info from AeroVironment about whether they will install their EVSE in a plug-in configuration.
 
Even at $2200, with half the cost covered by Obamabucks, for me it's not worth fooling around with some kind of "roll your own" solution. Like all DIY projects around the house you think it's going to cost X and by the time you're done you've way overspent that, not to mention your time and the fact you're left with a half-ass solution, and who knows what that means your warranty coverage on the car. Also I'm not seeing the idea you can build a circuit to signal the charger for $2 in parts from radio shack. I don't think they sell a single component off their back wall for that.
 
It may be possible, once we see the specs of the Leafs DC port, to charge using this external charger, it's up to 12KW (50AMPs @ 240VAC), output is adjustable, and it's designed for EV battery charging. It has a control buss, some perhaps even a control circuit to interface between ther Leaf and the DC charger would be possible. Also, it's not too expensive. You will have to be knowledge in higher power electrical wiring, and be aware of what you are doing, but it looks like it may be possible. We don't know enough yet about the DC charging port, or the connector/wiring yet to build the required adapter, but at least there is a DC port already. if the Leaf where essentialy empty, it would be possible to charge in 2 hours with this DC charger, if the Leaf's battery pack can handle the current, and if they are going to have a 50KW charger, it should be able to handle it, also it only weighs 42 #, so not too bad to take a long with you as well.

$3267 here, but none in stock: http://www.revoltevc.com/chargers/pfc50.html
$3300 here: http://www.evsource.com/tls_pfc50.php

mfr: http://www.manzanitamicro.com/index.php ... &Itemid=64
pdf manual: http://www.manzanitamicro.com/index.php ... wnload&cid[]=5
 
I'm sure this has been discussed somewhere already so forgive the duplication, but why are there two charging ports on the leaf? I thought the J1772 standard supports 120VAC 15A connections as well as 240VAC and higher voltage DC supply.
 
I think that the J1772 supports "Level 1" (120v up to 20 amps) and Level 2 (240v up to 80 amps, or so), but not the higher-power 480v 100-amp (and more) "Level 3" charging needed for 30-minute (or faster charging).

So, one J1772 port (home strength, and more) and one "Level 3" port (industrial strength).

Yes, it does seem a little bit like a waste to use two different ports.
 
garygid said:
I think that the J1772 supports "Level 1" (120v up to 20 amps) and Level 2 (240v up to 80 amps, or so), but not the higher-power 480v 100-amp (and more) "Level 3" charging needed for 30-minute (or faster charging).

So, one J1772 port (home strength, and more) and one "Level 3" port (industrial strength).

Yes, it does seem a little bit like a waste to use two different ports.

It makes sense to have them due to cord size.

For those that think the boxes only cost $600 then if that were true they would be available on the open market to purchase at that price. If there is money to be made selling or installing boxes then they will be avaiable on the open market. If you have a panel in your garage it could be as simple as adding the unit right next to it which is not expensive. Nissan is taking extra steps to insure a smooth launch and I,m sure there will be options available at the end of the year. Besides, I'm sure people will buy these for second locations and they will be available for purchase. I have seen some of these listed to sell at $2k without intallation. The portability issue will work itself out soon enough and one the car is launched you guys will see it's not going to be a big issue
 
Its very simple:

The port on the left is for DC charging, it is connected directly to the battery pack. It is probably in the range of 240V-400V DC, we don;t yet know the voltage of the Leafs pack.

the port on the right is the J-1772 AC input port, it connected to the Leafs onboard 3.3KW charger. You supply AC power via the J-1772 connector, this is for Level 1 and Level 2 EVSE's (note, NOT chargers, just a way to connect AC power to the onboard charger)

The DC port is for an external CHARGER, a 3 phase 480V, 50KW unit is being developed, it's output however is DC, and would connect directly to the battery pack via the left DC charging port. I also posted some links above for an external 12KW DC charger, that costs $3300. Of course it needs some connectors and wiring, and a 240V 50A AC Circuit to run the charger, but it would be able to charge the Leaf from nearly empty in about 2 hours.

do not confuse the 2, one is for supplying AC power to the onboard charger, while the other is direct access to the pack for higher power DC charging.
 
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