Leaf charging info.

LTLFTcomposite said:

Even at $2200, with half the cost covered by Obamabucks, for me it's not worth fooling around with some kind of "roll your own" solution. Like all DIY projects around the house you think it's going to cost X and by the time you're done you've way overspent that, not to mention your time and the fact you're left with a half-ass solution, and who knows what that means your warranty coverage on the car. Also I'm not seeing the idea you can build a circuit to signal the charger for $2 in parts from radio shack. I don't think they sell a single component off their back wall for that.

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Funny- radio shack sells resistors and the like and it is convenient. If you don't believe me I can dig up such a box I built and also show you the signal circuit which cost under $2 in parts. The circuits are only to tell the wall, box to turn off or on for the most part and don't impact the car. This entire situation is no different then when the avcon chargers came out and it is why people made portable cords and adaptors and pilot circuits fo certain applications a d also why a company sold the avcon female ports for this exact use. I see all of the concerns over the charging boxes as minimal as there will, be easy solutions, the real issue is cost for some. It is really quite basic and everyone is making more out of a silly glorified switch box, but the industry will take advantage of that for as long as they can.

It's also amazing how manzanita micro has stayed in business all these years selling high-power chargers to those without any charge box solution. This issue will be beaten to death and then soon forgotten.

It is likely that the Level 3 "charging" is monitored and regulated by an on-board "L3-controller", because only it, not the external L3 unit, can know how much and how fast to charge the battery, and when to stop.

The Leaf needs to be monitoring the cells, and protecting the health of the battery.

I will be quite suprised if the Leaf's battery buss is connected directly to the Leaf's L3 onboard connector. Most likely the "direct" connection, if any, is made only after some "protective" circuitry has verified the external L3 device's capabilities. I doubt it is a "dumb" connect-any-charger arrangement.

In operation, if the external L3 power gets connected "directly" to the battery, and a vehicle's battery pack might be any chemistry or voltage, the L3's DC voltage will need to be variable, perhaps from perhaps 50 to 500 (or more?) volts, and I have not yet heard of a voltage RANGE spec, just the 480 volts.

Also, I thought that some varient of the L3 "station" could provide 480v 3-phase to the vehicle. But, the Leaf's L3 connector appears to have only two (not 3) power (hi-current) connections.

So, clearly I do not yet know enough about the proposed "standard".
Does anybody have a reference (in English)?

garygid, it is very likely the Level 3 DC port is directly connected to the pack (through some fuses or a 2 pole circuit breaker), and there are some low voltage signalling wires from the onboard BMS (Battery Management System) that "talk" to the DC charger, it really is not as complicated as you might think. I'm sure any number of DC chargers will be able to be fitted to the Leaf, with the proper control interface. Nissan might not want people to use the DC charging port with homebrew chargers,but it is going to happen, you can see you get a lot better value for your $3300 (probably $4k with cabling, plugs, etc needed to get it working) with a "real" 12KW DC charger, than with the estimated $2200 "EVSE" + including installation, they want to sell us.

I am glad I will not be getting a Leaf in the december first shipment, this will allow time for all of those western pioneers to figure out the DC charging port and come up with ways of using the manzanitamicro PFC-50. 2 hour charging will be sweet, if you have a 240V 50A dryer outlet/power availble (to run the PFC-50)

http://www.manzanitamicro.com/index.php?page=shop.browse&category_id=14&option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=64

mitch672 said:

garygid, it is very likely the Level 3 DC port is directly connected to the pack (through some fuses or a 2 pole circuit breaker), and there are some low voltage signalling wires from the onboard BMS (Battery Management System) that "talk" to the DC charger, it really is not as complicated as you might think. I'm sure any number of DC chargers will be able to be fitted to the Leaf, with the proper control interface. Nissan might not want people to use the DC charging port with homebrew chargers,but it is going to happen, you can see you get a lot better value for your $3300 (probably $4k with cabling, plugs, etc needed to get it working) with a "real" 12KW DC charger, than with the estimated $2200 "EVSE" + including installation, they want to sell us.

I am glad I will not be getting a Leaf in the december first shipment, this will allow time for all of those western pioneers to figure out the DC charging port and come up with ways of using the manzanitamicro PFC-50. 2 hour charging will be sweet, if you have a 240V 50A dryer outlet/power availble (to run the PFC-50)

http://www.manzanitamicro.com/index.php?page=shop.browse&category_id=14&option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=64

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I suspect that your "western pioneers" will be Rich Rudman himself. If I were him I'd design a circuit to work with my chargers to allow them to communicate to the LEAF and be able to sell them to LEAF owners. The madman has probably already got a prototype designed already.

I'm sure mr Rudman is already on the case, or will be as soon as he can get his hands on a Leaf for experimentation with in December... I fully expect he'll make a model designed just for the Leaf, with the correct DC charging cord, or at a minimum, he'll have instructions on how to make it up, and where to source the parts required from

He's already working on a 54KW 480V 3 phase charger as well, looks like it contains 3 of the PFC-75's rack mounted and some other goodies, not cheap though ($24.5K)

http://www.manzanitamicro.com/index.php?page=shop.product_details&flypage=flypage.tpl&product_id=59&category_id=14&option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=64

Once I get my car I will be looking into making this work, I have customized several PFC chargers for EVs before and it should be a good project. To Gary's point, the HV connection must go straight to the pack before BMS so the system will most likely need to talk back to the PFC- XX used. No different than any other setup that needs charge control.

EVDRIVER said:

Once I get my car I will be looking into making this work, I have customized several PFC chargers for EVs before and it should be a good project. To Gary's point, the HV connection must go straight to the pack before BMS so the system will most likely need to talk back to the PFC- XX used. No different than any other setup that needs charge control.

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if you are anywhere near Kingston, WA, Rich Rudman will probably be willing to work with you, he is interest in making a product for the Leaf. Still trying to get the full specs on the Level 3 standard/protocols, not easy to find.

http://www.manzanitamicro.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=57&Itemid=18

mitch672 said:

EVDRIVER said:

Once I get my car I will be looking into making this work, I have customized several PFC chargers for EVs before and it should be a good project. To Gary's point, the HV connection must go straight to the pack before BMS so the system will most likely need to talk back to the PFC- XX used. No different than any other setup that needs charge control.

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if you are anywhere near Kingston, WA, Rich Rudman will probably be willing to work with you, he is interest in making a product for the Leaf. Still trying to get the full specs on the Level 3 standard/protocols, not easy to find.

http://www.manzanitamicro.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=57&Itemid=18

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Thanks- I have worked with him in the past and have already contacted them. I have used many of his products over the years.

LTLFTcomposite said:

I'm sure this has been discussed somewhere already so forgive the duplication, but why are there two charging ports on the leaf? I thought the J1772 standard supports 120VAC 15A connections as well as 240VAC and higher voltage DC supply.

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One more comment on the question that started this flood of comments. Yes, J1772 is architected to support DC (external charger) in addition to AC (internal charger). But the Yazaki J1772 connector, which is what we tend to think of as J1772, and is what most if not all EV and PHEV makers seem to be adopting, is only approved up to 30A, 240V.

I believe the second charging port on the Leaf is not J1772-compliant at all, but is JARI Level 3 DC. That's a different standard that several Japanese auto makers have been pushing.

I believe it is the older "square" j1772 connector that was limited to 30 amps. The 2009 version "round" connector used with the Leaf can take 70 amps, I believe.

planet4ever said:

LTLFTcomposite said:

I'm sure this has been discussed somewhere already so forgive the duplication, but why are there two charging ports on the leaf? I thought the J1772 standard supports 120VAC 15A connections as well as 240VAC and higher voltage DC supply.

Click to expand...

One more comment on the question that started this flood of comments. Yes, J1772 is architected to support DC (external charger) in addition to AC (internal charger). But the Yazaki J1772 connector, which is what we tend to think of as J1772, and is what most if not all EV and PHEV makers seem to be adopting, is only approved up to 30A, 240V.

I believe the second charging port on the Leaf is not J1772-compliant at all, but is JARI Level 3 DC. That's a different standard that several Japanese auto makers have been pushing.

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The JARI is the one used for an external charger not the other. One is for AC only on the LEAF.

Can anyone explain this to me? The way I read it I need a 40A breaker.

This is from Nissan's Leaf website;

A: The home charging dock will require a 220/240V 40 amp dedicated circuit connected to a breaker. The charging dock will need to be hard-wired directly to the circuit by a certified electrician.

Thank you for explaining

3.3 kW charging, 240v 15a, requires a 20-amp breaker to be in code for a "continuous" load (charging).

6.6 kW charging, to be available when the first Leafs are "upgraded", uses 30a from the 240v circuit, requiring a 40-amp braker (at least 125% of the continuous load) to be in code.

Thus, for now, a 20-amp circuit would be enough, but might as well wire (and size the breaker) for the comming-soon faster charging ... if possible.
If not possible, wire the 20-amp circuit and just stay with that "8-hour" charge rate.

planet4ever said:

One more comment on the question that started this flood of comments. Yes, J1772 is architected to support DC (external charger) in addition to AC (internal charger). But the Yazaki J1772 connector, which is what we tend to think of as J1772, and is what most if not all EV and PHEV makers seem to be adopting, is only approved up to 30A, 240V.

I believe the second charging port on the Leaf is not J1772-compliant at all, but is JARI Level 3 DC. That's a different standard that several Japanese auto makers have been pushing.

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I have a copy of the Jan 2010 J1772. Level 1 and 2 are covered by J1772 and while it does provide data for the Yazaki connector, it also includes info for the 'previous' square coupler.

The J1772 doc does talk about Level 3 within the context of the earlier revision, but makes it clear that while Level 3 was never previously implemented, it is 'under development' for the current configuration. The J1772 committee should be voting on the new DC Level 3 configuration in late June.

For the Yazaki Level 1 and 2... The pilot/control signal upper limit is 80A. The Level 2 charge ratings are specified to be 208-240V single phase AC at less than or equal to 80A. This connector appears to be designed and specified for Level 1 and 2 AC connection at up to the 80A continuous rating.

The earlier square connector appears to have a 40A limit for AC charging. It did have an option of including DC Level 3 charging at up to 600VDC and 400A, the J1772 doc clearly states that Level 3 has never been implemented in the US.

The quick charge port - likely to end up being the Yari/TEPCO configuration will be included in J1772 once ratified.

Andy

Although most buyers of the Leaf won't use a fast DC charger, it's an important feature for the EV industry in the future.

The EV Project that's installing EVSE's and chargers for Nissan in early adopter locations has hundreds of fast charging spots planned.

If SAE is too slow in setting the J-1772 DC fast charging standard, Nissan could set the "de facto" standard in the US.
Maybe SAE will just choose to let Nissan's chosen standard to be the SAE standard.

Check out Clipper Creek http://www.clippercreek.net/ClipperCreek Products v05.htm

I hope this is true because my installation is very easy. I have a 200 amp service panel outside my garage that feeds a 125 amp panel in the center of a 3 car garage. I will mount the charge station on the wall directly next to this sub-panel which will allow the cord to reach all three garage stalls. I should be able to get it all done for about $500-$750. Worst case it has to be mounted on the wall next to the 200 amp panel and the charger can only reach two of the three stalls.

Jonathan Read, president and CEO of ECOtality (the company working with Nissan to create home charging stations for the Leaf EV), told The New York Times that the hardware for the charging station will be around $300 to $350, and typical installation costs will range from $500 to $1500. That's for homes equipped with a typical 200-amp or higher electrical service. According to Richard Lowenthal, CEO of charging company Coulomb, the cost of installation could increase to as much as $10,000 “if new service and panels are needed.”

Read more: http://wot.motortrend.com/6654897/green/equipping-a-home-with-an-ev-charger-could-get-pricey/index.html#ixzz0rELLUW6b

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http://wot.motortrend.com/6654897/green/equipping-a-home-with-an-ev-charger-could-get-pricey/index.html

palmermd said:

Jonathan Read, president and CEO of ECOtality (the company working with Nissan to create home charging stations for the Leaf EV), told The New York Times that the hardware for the charging station will be around $300 to $350, and typical installation costs will range from $500 to $1500. That's for homes equipped with a typical 200-amp or higher electrical service. According to Richard Lowenthal, CEO of charging company Coulomb, the cost of installation could increase to as much as $10,000 “if new service and panels are needed.”

Read more: http://wot.motortrend.com/6654897/green/equipping-a-home-with-an-ev-charger-could-get-pricey/index.html#ixzz0rELLUW6b

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I remember reading this .... we don't know whether Nissan's $2,200 is a minimum, optimistic, average or pessimistic number. We will know in a few weeks ...

mywaracfirfoyff said:

I found this list of charging levels on the RAV4-EV mailing list, and though it might be of interest to the people here.

The 2011 Leaf will come with a 3.3KW charger on board.
The 2012 Leaf will have a 6.6KW charger.
It will be possible to upgrade the 2011 with the faster charger (at extra cost) when the 2012 model comes out.

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I know that this is a very old thread, and I know that this topic has been addressed in other threads, but I feel that the following subject needs to be addressed.

Where has Nissan - in a publicly available press release - announced any of this?

I have also seen others say that future LEAFs will have a 6.6kw charger. I have seen no one site Nissan as the source (other than one Nissan online chat, where the operator said basically that everything was subject to change). I mean, let's face it, Nissan hasn't even finalized specifications of the 2011 LEAF. Now all of this may actually come to pass. But I won't believe any of it until I see a Nissan executive say it, or see it in a Nissan press release.

LEAFguy said:

mywaracfirfoyff said:

I found this list of charging levels on the RAV4-EV mailing list, and though it might be of interest to the people here.

The 2011 Leaf will come with a 3.3KW charger on board.
The 2012 Leaf will have a 6.6KW charger.
It will be possible to upgrade the 2011 with the faster charger (at extra cost) when the 2012 model comes out.

Click to expand...

I know that this is a very old thread, and I know that this topic has been addressed in other threads, but I feel that the following subject needs to be addressed.

Where has Nissan - in a publicly available press release - announced any of this?

I have also seen others say that future LEAFs will have a 6.6kw charger. I have seen no one site Nissan as the source (other than one Nissan online chat, where the operator said basically that everything was subject to change). I mean, let's face it, Nissan hasn't even finalized specifications of the 2011 LEAF. Now all of this may actually come to pass. But I won't believe any of it until I see a Nissan executive say it, or see it in a Nissan press release.

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Leafguy: I really appreciate your efforts to keep the info on these posts factual---instead of rumors and hearsay. I wish we could all limit our posts to FACTS. There's way too much BS being put out here