Is a Leaf usable in Park City, Utah?

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hanz64

Member
Joined
Jul 9, 2011
Messages
11
Location
Richardson, TX
We are getting a house near Park City, Utah and I wonder if it would be worth the effort to use my Leaf there. I have been driving it for two winters in Texas and I have noticed that when we run the heater the range is drastically reduced (even with the Texas mild winters). So in a colder and more mountainous area like the Park City area I suppose that the range could be so limited that the Leaf might not be a useful car.

Also there does not seem to be a lot of charging stations in Park City. I have only found one so far.

Does anyone have a comment on this?
 
How usable it will be is going to depend on many factors, the most important one being how much driving do you expect to get out of it between charging sessions (especially if you're only limited to 120 volt outlets). If you expect the car to stay just in-town it shouldn't be a problem, but don't expect to be able to to SLC-Park City round trip everyday in the winter on a single charge.

Another one is how many bars have you lost so far, since you have a 2011 model?

Take your winter numbers in Texas and perhaps cut that in half to account for terrain, increased rolling resistance due to snow on the roads, and increased heater usage, and see if that is doable for you.
 
hanz64 said:
We are getting a house near Park City, Utah and I wonder if it would be worth the effort to use my Leaf there. I have been driving it for two winters in Texas and I have noticed that when we run the heater the range is drastically reduced (even with the Texas mild winters). So in a colder and more mountainous area like the Park City area I suppose that the range could be so limited that the Leaf might not be a useful car.
Also there does not seem to be a lot of charging stations in Park City. I have only found one so far.
Does anyone have a comment on this?
My LEAF has just over 11,000 miles on it and we have been to Park City many times.

Would you like to go with me to visit the mayor of Park City and talk about the lack of charge stations in that great town ?
 
RonDawg said:
How usable it will be is going to depend on many factors, the most important one being how much driving do you expect to get out of it between charging sessions (especially if you're only limited to 120 volt outlets). If you expect the car to stay just in-town it shouldn't be a problem, but don't expect to be able to to SLC-Park City round trip everyday in the winter on a single charge.

Another one is how many bars have you lost so far, since you have a 2011 model?

Take your winter numbers in Texas and perhaps cut that in half to account for terrain, increased rolling resistance due to snow on the roads, and increased heater usage, and see if that is doable for you.

Yes, this is what worries me. I agree with you that I probably have to expect a 50% reduction in range due to the cold climate and the terrain. Our home is about 10 miles outside of Park City. And I have lost quite a few bars since the car was new. Now the car reports about 65-70 miles range when it is charged to 80%. It used to report 90+ miles at the 80% charge a year ago.

So in the winter conditions I would only have a 30-35 mile range. And if I can't charge it in Park City during the day, it will be close call to make it back home. It means that I can only travel about 15 miles from my home before I have to turn around. That is quite a dilemma.

I assume that in the summer it would work better, but it is hard to to justify having to have two vehicles; one for the summer and another for the winter.

I wouldn't mind scheduling a visit with mayor of Park City. I have already called the city and asked them about their EV charging plans. They said that there has been some talk about it, but they don't have any definite plans. They claim that they have such limited parking space as is so they find it hard to dedicate some parking spaces for EVs.
 
hanz64 said:
And I have lost quite a few bars since the car was new. Now the car reports about 65-70 miles range when it is charged to 80%. It used to report 90+ miles at the 80% charge a year ago.
Say what? I wasn't aware that anyone had lost more than three capacity bars. How many do you have (the skinny bars at the far right edge of the dash, including the two red ones at the bottom)?

I don't think we really care what the lying GuessOMeter says. How many miles can you drive from 80% to Low Battery Warning? Your real range is how far you can drive from 100% to Very Low Battery Warning. I agree that you don't want to let the battery stay at 100% for very long, but that doesn't mean you can't take it to that level before using it.

Ray
 
planet4ever said:
hanz64 said:
And I have lost quite a few bars since the car was new. Now the car reports about 65-70 miles range when it is charged to 80%. It used to report 90+ miles at the 80% charge a year ago.
Say what? I wasn't aware that anyone had lost more than three capacity bars. How many do you have (the skinny bars at the far right edge of the dash, including the two red ones at the bottom)?

I don't think we really care what the lying GuessOMeter says. How many miles can you drive from 80% to Low Battery Warning? Your real range is how far you can drive from 100% to Very Low Battery Warning. I agree that you don't want to let the battery stay at 100% for very long, but that doesn't mean you can't take it to that level before using it.

Ray

The car is charging right now, but I guess I should rephrase my previous post. I think I still have as many bars as I have always had when I charge it to 80%. It is just the GuessOMeter that has changed and is now displaying a lower number. But I think the GuessOMeter is somewhat accurate. I used to be able to drive to the DFW airport and back home without charging. But I can no longer do that without getting to a lower range than 10 miles. The airport is 35 miles from the house. So that is a 70 mile round-trip, which is mostly highway miles. I usually try to keep the speed below 60 mph on the highway. I can't go much slower than that since the speed limit is 70 mph and cars will just be flying by me if I slow down any further. The DFW area is almost flat. Summit county in Utah is not. So I am skeptical.

I suppose I could always try to use the Leaf in the Park City area and charge it to 100% most of the time in the winter. If I see that the range is just inadequate I could trade the car at that time.

Does anyone have a comment about how the Leaf handles in snow?
 
There is nothing wrong with charging to 100% just before you drive the car. Make use of the timers with only the end time set.

The traction control on the LEAF is very good. The ecrapia tires are very bad in the snow. Buy a set of aggressive snow tires and it will surprise you.

Ignore the GOM and buy yourself a GID meter.
 
hanz64 said:
planet4ever said:
hanz64 said:
And I have lost quite a few bars since the car was new. Now the car reports about 65-70 miles range when it is charged to 80%. It used to report 90+ miles at the 80% charge a year ago.
Say what? I wasn't aware that anyone had lost more than three capacity bars. How many do you have (the skinny bars at the far right edge of the dash, including the two red ones at the bottom)?
The car is charging right now, but I guess I should rephrase my previous post. I think I still have as many bars as I have always had when I charge it to 80%.
As others have said, forget the GOM. We really would like to know how many capacity bars have been lost. See http://www.mynissanleaf.com/wiki/index.php?title=File:Scott_3_bars_s.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; for an example of 3 capacity bars lost and what you should be counting.
 
The weight distribution of the LEAF, owing to the placement of the battery pack, is very good for stability and handling on mountain roads and slippery conditions. The relatively generous ground clearance is also a plus in snow.

As a mountain car, a LEAF can work quite well as long as the range is adequate for one's needs. As a rough rule of thumb, when climbing a mountain, expect to use an additional bar of charge for every 1000' climbed. Whenever we climb the 5000' from the valley below our mountain range, we use climate control very sparingly and drive slowly in order to save energy. Driving back and forth between nearby mountain towns where the elevation changes are more like 1000'-2000', however, we heat the car as much as we please (we almost never use air conditioning up here) and feel free to zip around.
 
The Leaf is the 10th best selling car model in Norway, which is as mountainous as Utah while being colder having more snow. I wouldnt stress about it. You'll have shorter range when the temperatures are freezing, but even at -10 centigrade my Leaf has been more than good enough to get me though all my daily routines. In the summer I'd charge it every 2-2.5 days. In the winter I charge every night just to be safe, but could get a couple days out of it.

Yes, it helps to have chargers around, but that's more a matter of flexibility - the range on the car can get you around and back home every night. You might have to change your driving style a bit and not be so heavy on the accelerator, but otherwise fine.
 
Ok, I looked at the charge meter this morning. I have a 9 small bars on the right side plus two red ones, for a total of 11.

Where can I get a GOD?

Thanks for all of the input. It seems like the Leaf is being used in some mountainous terrain around the world (like in Norway). I should probably give it a try in Park City.
 
We live at 7400 feet and we make regular 55 mile round-trips to a destination that is at 6000 feet with our 2012 SL. Lots of hills on the drive. On days with mild temps we get about 3.5 miles/kWh on the journey - I know that the Leaf can get 4.5 and better on flat ground but that seems to be the mileage discount with the hills. On very cold days (below 10F) the mileage drops to around 3.0/kWh (all these figures are with climate control on). There are a few level 2 charging stations on the way which we can use if we have to on the way back - so far haven't needed to.
 
hanz64 said:
Ok, I looked at the charge meter this morning. I have a 9 small bars on the right side plus two red ones, for a total of 11.
Where can I get a GID?
Thanks for all of the input. It seems like the Leaf is being used in some mountainous terrain around the world (like in Norway). I should probably give it a try in Park City.
The GID meter that I use came from garygid. It has been great for the last year, no problems.
http://www.wwwsite.com/puzzles/socmeter/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
You can save some money by putting it together yourself. My soldering skills are really bad, so I just paid gary to put it together for me.
 
If you are trying to do just ten miles to Park City and back your LEAF will work fine. If you want to get to SLC and back with a LEAF that is down one capacity bar that might be difficult, depending on where in that large metro area you were going.

Driving in the Park City area is likely to be at slower speeds than doing 60 mph on the freeway in the DFW area. And that drastically increases range. In Park City you will also have increased range due to altitude, which makes up for the colder temperatures somewhat.

Some factors to consider:
Will you be parking and charging outside or in a garage? If in a garage, how cold does it get in winter? If you will be charging outside you will take a hit to the battery capacity in winter.

What speeds will you be driving? If something fairly slow, say 45 mph or less, your range should be upwards of 50 miles on dry roads even at 20ºF or less.

Will you be doing a lot of hill climbing? If so that will reduce your range somewhat since you don't get back going downhill all of what you put in to go uphill.


As others have said, the LEAF handles fine in snow but you will need snow tires for decent traction unless you can wait for roads to be plowed and sanded.

I routinely get 65 miles in winter with 2300 feet of elevation change on dry roads. My LEAF is down about 5% to 10% in battery capacity since new; yours is down twice that or more. My home elevation of 7670 feet is similar to Park City and my speeds on such a trip are about half at 50-60 mph and the rest mostly at 35 mph. I charge in a garage that doesn't get below freezing, I don't use or need the heater on such trips, and my mileage efficiency is typically above 4.0 miles/kWh at 20ºF. But I don't try such a trip if roads are snowpacked since I don't have snowtires and the trip is discretionary. In my mountainous area the LEAF GOM is utterly, completely, useless. FWIW.
 
I have taken my Leaf up to Park City from downtown SLC several times. It makes it there and back, but barely. And only in the summer. Since SLC has very limited charging infrastructure, you would not be able to reliably travel to SLC and back if you live in Park City.
 
dgpcolorado said:
If you are trying to do just ten miles to Park City and back your LEAF will work fine. If you want to get to SLC and back with a LEAF that is down one capacity bar that might be difficult, depending on where in that large metro area you were going.

Driving in the Park City area is likely to be at slower speeds than doing 60 mph on the freeway in the DFW area. And that drastically increases range. In Park City you will also have increased range due to altitude, which makes up for the colder temperatures somewhat.

Some factors to consider:
Will you be parking and charging outside or in a garage? If in a garage, how cold does it get in winter? If you will be charging outside you will take a hit to the battery capacity in winter.

What speeds will you be driving? If something fairly slow, say 45 mph or less, your range should be upwards of 50 miles on dry roads even at 20ºF or less.

Will you be doing a lot of hill climbing? If so that will reduce your range somewhat since you don't get back going downhill all of what you put in to go uphill.


As others have said, the LEAF handles fine in snow but you will need snow tires for decent traction unless you can wait for roads to be plowed and sanded.

I routinely get 65 miles in winter with 2300 feet of elevation change on dry roads. My LEAF is down about 5% to 10% in battery capacity since new; yours is down twice that or more. My home elevation of 7670 feet is similar to Park City and my speeds on such a trip are about half at 50-60 mph and the rest mostly at 35 mph. I charge in a garage that doesn't get below freezing, I don't use or need the heater on such trips, and my mileage efficiency is typically above 4.0 miles/kWh at 20ºF. But I don't try such a trip if roads are snowpacked since I don't have snowtires and the trip is discretionary. In my mountainous area the LEAF GOM is utterly, completely, useless. FWIW.

Yes, I will be parking it and charging it in a garage at home. Some of the driving in the area between Heber City and Kimball Junction will be on a highway where the speed limit is about 65 mph or so. However, as you say the speed limit is much lower in Park City proper. Our house sits on top of a mountain so you have to climb up to get back home. I suppose I need to reserve a certain charge to make that climb each day.

The only time we would take the Leaf to Salt Lake City would be to get it serviced at the Nissan dealer there. And they would have a charging station so as long as I can climb the 3,000 feet or so from SLC to get back home with a full charge I guess I should be ok.

So when you say that the GOM is utterly useless, does that apply to the number (miles) that is displayed, or does it apply to the the number of charge bars on the left that are displayed as well. I assumed that the charge bars just showed the percentage of the total full charge. I.e. if you have 6 out of 12 bars would that not mean that you have a 50% charge in the battery?

Also I would like to know why I could expect a better range at higher altitude? Does the lithium battery operate more efficiently at higher altitude?

I just looked at my average kilowatt hour mileage, and I am getting 4.8 miles/kWh. So I guess that is considered fairly good. So if you get about 4.0 miles/kWh in a mountainous terrain that is better than I was hoping for.

I am getting more and mor convinced that I should try to use the Leaf in Park City. It might not be the ultimate vehicle for that area, but as long as we have a second car (burning fossil fuels) then we will hopefully be ok.

I really appreciate all the feedback. This is a great community.
 
tcherniaev said:
I have taken my Leaf up to Park City from downtown SLC several times. It makes it there and back, but barely. And only in the summer. Since SLC has very limited charging infrastructure, you would not be able to reliably travel to SLC and back if you live in Park City.

Thanks for the feedback. This was valuable information. Hopefully SLC will improve the infrastructure in the future so they can promote EVs and improve the air quality in the city.

As I stated in my previous posts, I don't plan on commute to SLC and back to Park City. It would only be an occasional trip to the Nissan Dealer for service.
 
hanz64 said:
So when you say that the GOM is utterly useless, does that apply to the number (miles) that is displayed, or does it apply to the the number of charge bars on the left that are displayed as well. I assumed that the charge bars just showed the percentage of the total full charge. I.e. if you have 6 out of 12 bars would that not mean that you have a 50% charge in the battery?
Only the GOM is useless in the mountains. If I'm driving down a mountain, obviously I'm not going to keep doing that for the next 75 miles. But the current GOM doesn't know that. The charge bars function as expected.

hanz64 said:
Also I would like to know why I could expect a better range at higher altitude? Does the lithium battery operate more efficiently at higher altitude?
You get better range because the air is thinner and there's less drag as a result. While an ICE is affected by the altitude due to having less oxygen for combustion, the electric motor and battery don't care.
 
hanz64 said:
Yes, I will be parking it and charging it in a garage at home. Some of the driving in the area between Heber City and Kimball Junction will be on a highway where the speed limit is about 65 mph or so. However, as you say the speed limit is much lower in Park City proper. Our house sits on top of a mountain so you have to climb up to get back home. I suppose I need to reserve a certain charge to make that climb each day.
Yes, you will soon learn how many fuel bars it takes to make the climb home. Where I live it takes me two fuel bars to make the nine mile trip home from town, an elevation gain of 1000 feet.
The only time we would take the Leaf to Salt Lake City would be to get it serviced at the Nissan dealer there. And they would have a charging station so as long as I can climb the 3,000 feet or so from SLC to get back home with a full charge I guess I should be ok.
As you say, since you will be able to charge at the SLC dealer, getting home to the Park City area will be fairly simple. My trip home from the dealer here is much more challenging.
So when you say that the GOM is utterly useless, does that apply to the number (miles) that is displayed, or does it apply to the the number of charge bars on the left that are displayed as well. I assumed that the charge bars just showed the percentage of the total full charge. I.e. if you have 6 out of 12 bars would that not mean that you have a 50% charge in the battery?
As abasile said, I was just referring to the GOM; the fuel bars work fine and I use them to track how far I can go. Be aware that given the "hidden fuel bars", 50% charge is roughly five fuel bars, not six. Since your battery has declined in capacity, a greater portion of what's left is below the Low Battery Warning now, since it is a fixed number of "Gids", an approximation of the state of charge.
Also I would like to know why I could expect a better range at higher altitude? Does the lithium battery operate more efficiently at higher altitude?
Again, as abasile said, thin air means reduced air density and decreased drag—fewer air molecules to push out of the way. Air density is logarithmic so the density is significantly lower as one increases in altitude. I long ago found that I get significantly higher gas mileage here in Colorado than when I drive down to sea level. The effect is even more pronounced with electric cars. If you look at the footnotes in Tony Williams' Range Chart you will see that he estimates an increase in mileage of 1.5% for each 1000 feet of elevation gain, other things being equal.

The reason I mentioned it is that people who live at low elevations are often unaware of the reduced drag at high elevations. Here in Colorado we tend to take it for granted because there are no low elevations here—the lowest is 3315 feet near the Kansas/Nebraska border. Utah is much the same.
I just looked at my average kilowatt hour mileage, and I am getting 4.8 miles/kWh. So I guess that is considered fairly good. So if you get about 4.0 miles/kWh in a mountainous terrain that is better than I was hoping for.
Here is a seasonal chart of my mileage:

The pink line is my dash meter mileage. But my speeds never exceed 60 mph because there are no freeways within LEAF range. Those who drive freeways can expect lower numbers at winter temperatures.
I am getting more and mor convinced that I should try to use the Leaf in Park City. It might not be the ultimate vehicle for that area, but as long as we have a second car (burning fossil fuels) then we will hopefully be ok.

I really appreciate all the feedback. This is a great community.
I think you will be fine with using the LEAF in Park City. Even when it snows!
 
dgpcolorado said:
Here is a seasonal chart of my mileage:

The pink line is my dash meter mileage. But my speeds never exceed 60 mph because there are no freeways within LEAF range. Those who drive freeways can expect lower numbers at winter temperatures.

I am amazed by the detailed information that you have provided. You have a very scientific approach to driving an EV. :)

Thanks again for the information. I will tow my Leaf on a car trailer behind the moving van when I head to Utah and try it out.
 
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