125A Load Center, what are my options?

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^^^ Yeah, that's another good idea, thanks. I like the fact that it will allow for an easier path to a future 200A service upgrade. One additional unrelated issue is that this is my new home and I haven't moved in yet, so I don't really know what my usage is which is sort of important for properly sizing the solar. But all this is good info that will help me to make a decision, hopefully later this year.
 
A supply side tap is exactly how I wired my solar system. It wasn’t hard to do and I did it because otherwise I would have exceeded 20% of my 200A panel (55A is the max my system can produce). With a supply side tap, you won’t have to change your existing panel at all, but you will probably need a new “combiner panel” and exterior lockable disconnect switch/knife switch.

Below is a drawing that I prepared for my utility and my inspector. Notice the flat rectangle just above both meters? That is an outdoor rated wireway and I did my supply side tap there, using some GP-250 splices that can be found here http://www.elliottelectric.com/Products/Detail.aspx?v=NSI&c=GP250WC

Valdemar said:
Of course I will double check but I don't see why a 125A panel with a 100A breaker should raise any red flags, as the utility (SCE) only cares about not overloading their feed cables that can only handle up to 125A according to them. I suspect it is a lie and they just want to err on the safe side or they may have another reason such as a transformer already running at capacity that they do not want to upgrade. They won't tell.

It sounds like it might be best to postpone my solar install, as on one hand I'm not ready to upgrade to a 200A panel yet as there is no real need for it and it will be quite costly, and while getting a 125A panel with a 100A breaker will allow me to get to desired solar power a year or two down the road I may need to upgrade to 200A so the money spent on the new 125A panel upgrade will be wasted. I don't think I can keep my old Zinsco 100A panel and add solar to it unless there is some creative way to add a supply side connection for solar.

 
FairwoodRed said:
A supply side tap is exactly how I wired my solar system. It wasn’t hard to do and I did it because otherwise I would have exceeded 20% of my 200A panel (55A is the max my system can produce). With a supply side tap, you won’t have to change your existing panel at all, but you will probably need a new “combiner panel” and exterior lockable disconnect switch/knife switch.

Below is a drawing that I prepared for my utility and my inspector. Notice the flat rectangle just above both meters? That is an outdoor rated wireway and I did my supply side tap there, using some GP-250 splices that can be found here http://www.elliottelectric.com/Products/Detail.aspx?v=NSI&c=GP250WC

But what if someone rips all the solar panels off the roof and then uses the PV combiner panel for some massive grow lights?! Then the service line will melt and kill all the children. Sorry, I just find the utilities logic silly and if you start using their logic then all sorts of normal approved things are no longer allowed. Anyway, very nice solution, the exterior raceway definitely helps make that clean, seems like you'd have problems doing that inside just the meter box.

Have you already installed phase 3?
 
The concerns about grow lights is exactly why they made me put SO MANY warning labels on the panel. Also, PSE prevented me from making that supply side tap connection inside the meter base. I’m allowed one set of wires in my meter base and that it. That’s too bad, because you can easily get dual lug meter bases and that would have cleaned my install up a bunch.

I ended up installing it all at once so I’ve now had all 60 panels up and running for 2 years (anniversary was just last week). I generate 96% of my annual electric needs, but I still forfeit some of what I bank due to when they reset the solar year (April). By the end of March, I have no banked kWh’s left and by the end of April, I’m producing more than I use. But that’s OK. I’m very happy with how it’s working out.

<edit> You *could* take power from the main panel, use a transformer to raise the voltage a couple percent, then feed it into the production panel to rack up the state production credits! Of course, they might wonder how your solar was producing power at midnight 8)
 
Valdemar said:
wwhitney said:
What's your present main breaker?

I have an old 100A Zinsco panel.
LOL The staple of the San Fernando Valley!! :lol:

I kept mine because my friends here locally still have theirs in place!!

This is true reading all this.. while we're in the midst of our upgrade.. our 100a Zinsco got yanked out for a 200a unit..

Almost everyone I know has these old breakers!!
 
For what it's worth... I have a 100 amp zinsco panel, and I kept mine and went with 17 M215s on 250w panels. I'm really pleased with the output I'm getting from the enphase system.

It would have been a significant additional cost to replace my main panel and all of the breakers. Note that you won't be reusing zinsco breakers in a non-zinsco panel....

Anyways, I thought I'd share my similar issue & my solution, and my satisfaction with my choice.

Good luck with your decision. I'm sure you'll be happy when you are watching the meter run backwards! :D
 
Splittinglanes said:
For what it's worth... I have a 100 amp zinsco panel, and I kept mine and went with 17 M215s on 250w panels. I'm really pleased with the output I'm getting from the enphase system.

It would have been a significant additional cost to replace my main panel and all of the breakers. Note that you won't be reusing zinsco breakers in a non-zinsco panel....

It's not the panel/breakers that cost very much it's the labor. A new GE panel with a sampling of breakers is under $150.
 
You also get 30% back on your taxes if the panel is done for solar, so you''re looking at about $1500 out of pocket or less for a new panel, so not too bad overall.
 
Valdemar said:
You also get 30% back on your taxes if the panel is done for solar, so you''re looking at about $1500 out of pocket or less for a new panel, so not too bad overall.

It's a separate permit and approval, plus power out for a day, plus $3k cost. Yeah, 30% back... But it's a lot of expense for a house that tops out at 40 amp load, and it cuts in to the payoff of the solar.
 
Valdemar said:
It sounds like it might be best to postpone my solar install, as on one hand I'm not ready to upgrade to a 200A panel yet as there is no real need for it and it will be quite costly, and while getting a 125A panel with a 100A breaker will allow me to get to desired solar power a year or two down the road I may need to upgrade to 200A so the money spent on the new 125A panel upgrade will be wasted. I don't think I can keep my old Zinsco 100A panel and add solar to it unless there is some creative way to add a supply side connection for solar.

Is there a risk in waiting so long? I read somewhere that the current law (or CPUC agreement, whatever) calls for a pause in approving new NEM agreements to allow time for an evaluation of the costs vs societal benefits of residential solar. IIRC that pause was scheduled for the end of 2014, but I could be very wrong there, and it could be triggered by the number or percent of homes with solar.

Anyhoo, please take this as a prompt to inform yourself on this matter.
 
^^^ I'm thinking maybe next year, so should be ok. Meanwhile I'll work on minimizing my footprint with Led lights and variable speed pool pump, should get quicker return on investment and minimize future solar needs.
 
Splittinglanes said:
Valdemar said:
You also get 30% back on your taxes if the panel is done for solar, so you''re looking at about $1500 out of pocket or less for a new panel, so not too bad overall.

It's a separate permit and approval, plus power out for a day, plus $3k cost. Yeah, 30% back... But it's a lot of expense for a house that tops out at 40 amp load, and it cuts in to the payoff of the solar.

Well, my Zinsco finally gave up today, this spot used to be occupied by the a/c breaker. You should monitor the condition of the busbars at least.

DSC_0431.jpg
 
More than 2 months later I'm finally getting closer to the end of this project. SCE has been difficult to talk to and basically if I needed a decently-sized solar array the only option they left me was to upgrade the service to 200A, for which I had to dig a trench, run a conduit so that they can pull new cables to a new 200A panel. So I decided to do it. I'm using a special solar-ready model which allows for 60A solar input w/o de-rating the main breaker. Ironically, because of the extra cost needed for this project (and others too) I now may have to postpone my solar install until the next year, so I won't be able to get a tax credit for this work.

Because the solar is likely to be delayed, I'm adding a TOU EV 2nd meter as charging my Leaf on the standard residential plan is expensive, and I don't want to change to the whole-house TOU until I get the solar. SCE wouldn't allow an EV TOU sub-meter on the old feed for whatever reason they had, but with the new feed cables it is an easy add-on.

In the end I don't feel like it was money wisely spent, but I will have a dedicated circuit up to 100A for EV charging on the SCE's EV-TOU rate, 200A residential service, and an option to add a solar system that will cover most if not all of my needs in the future.
 
Valdemar said:
More than 2 months later I'm finally getting closer to the end of this project. SCE has been difficult to talk to and basically if I needed a decently-sized solar array the only option they left me was to upgrade the service to 200A, for which I had to dig a trench, run a conduit so that they can pull new cables to a new 200A panel. So I decided to do it. I'm using a special solar-ready model which allows for 60A solar input w/o de-rating the main breaker. Ironically, because of the extra cost needed for this project (and others too) I now may have to postpone my solar install until the next year, so I won't be able to get a tax credit for this work.

In my mind it's clear that this work was needed to install solar and even if you end up installing solar next year IMO I would include the cost of it in your federal tax credit. AFAIC the worst case is you get audited and they do a thorough review of all your documentation and decide that it is not included and you have to repay that part of the credit back. Not very likely and IMO it's in the spirit of the intention of the credit.
 
I just scanned the posts so excuse me if I missed something important, just my experience. Solar City put in a 10.045KW system (42 panels) for me and I have a 100 amp panel and I'm with SCE, I'm leasing so perhaps there is a difference but i'm not sure why you would be limited. I've been running since mid June 2013.
 
ggodman, solar city probably did what's called a line-side tap to get that much PV on a house with a 100A panel.

Basically they hook the PV in front of the main panel tying directly into the utility lines.
 
QueenBee said:
In my mind it's clear that this work was needed to install solar and even if you end up installing solar next year IMO I would include the cost of it in your federal tax credit. AFAIC the worst case is you get audited and they do a thorough review of all your documentation and decide that it is not included and you have to repay that part of the credit back. Not very likely and IMO it's in the spirit of the intention of the credit.

Good idea, thanks. I'll try that.

drees said:
ggodman, solar city probably did what's called a line-side tap to get that much PV on a house with a 100A panel.

Basically they hook the PV in front of the main panel tying directly into the utility lines.

I thought line-side tap is when they somehow land solar between the meter and the main breaker, no? And in front of the main panel it would be a service-side tap.

Line-side tap on the Zinsco wasn't really an option in my case, and I needed a new panel anyway as Zinsco was steadily deteriorating and had no place for breakers. My electrician told me that line-side tap will void warranty if done on a new panel, and it would be difficult to have SCE sign off on such an install.
 
Valdemar said:
drees said:
ggodman, solar city probably did what's called a line-side tap to get that much PV on a house with a 100A panel.

Basically they hook the PV in front of the main panel tying directly into the utility lines.

I thought line-side tap is when they somehow land solar between the meter and the main breaker, no? And in front of the main panel it would be a service-side tap.

Line-side tap on the Zinsco wasn't really an option in my case, and I needed a new panel anyway as Zinsco was steadily deteriorating and had no place for breakers. My electrician told me that line-side tap will void warranty if done on a new panel, and it would be difficult to have SCE sign off on such an install.
Yes, you're right.

When it's not possible to do a line-side tap, what you can do is install a new meter box upstream of the existing meter/panel, junction box where you will splice in your solar/main panel, then bypass the meter socket and install a meter blank/cover.
 
drees said:
When it's not possible to do a line-side tap, what you can do is install a new meter box upstream of the existing meter/panel, junction box where you will splice in your solar/main panel, then bypass the meter socket and install a meter blank/cover.

And I couldn't do even that as the original panel is a part of the home and is fed from underground and you cannot really install anything upstream. I guess I could find a suitable flush-mount 100A meter enclosure that I could install in place of the existing panel and from it feed to a new panel that is installed next to it and land solar in between, and fight SCE to approve it. But it would also add cost to the project. I thought about it but chose the path of least resistance, while somewhat more expensive at least it will give me a 200A service for whatever future needs I might have.
 
Yeah, a new panel and upgraded service is definitely the cleanest way to go, but especially with old underground feeds can be expensive as often you need to trench and run new conduit.
 
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