Chademo vs SAE

My Nissan Leaf Forum

Help Support My Nissan Leaf Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.
Well, it looks like the i3 guys are having a hell of a time getting the combo chargers to, ya know, charge:

http://www.mybmwi3.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=1006" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Looks like it's really finicky about exactly how it's plugged in. If there's too much weight on the end of the handle pulling it down, it won't seat properly on the top.

The more I hear stories about this, and use the new "gun" connectors on the new Blink CHAdeMO units, the more I think that the Combo connectors have nothing on CHAdeMO, and possibly are a step backwards. Those new CHAdeMO connectors are beaten only by the Tesla connection, in my opinion, if that. They are nearly the perfect way to charge your car (apart from all the authentication nonsense, which isn't the spec's fault).
 
pkulak said:
Well, it looks like the i3 guys are having a hell of a time getting the combo chargers to, ya know, charge:

http://www.mybmwi3.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=1006" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Looks like it's really finicky about exactly how it's plugged in. If there's too much weight on the end of the handle pulling it down, it won't seat properly on the top.

The more I hear stories about this, and use the new "gun" connectors on the new Blink CHAdeMO units, the more I think that the Combo connectors have nothing on CHAdeMO, and possibly are a step backwards. Those new CHAdeMO connectors are beaten only by the Tesla connection, in my opinion, if that. They are nearly the perfect way to charge your car (apart from all the authentication nonsense, which isn't the spec's fault).
From what I'm reading this is more a physical problem than a strictly electrical one. Clearly, BMW needs to re-design the area around the receptacle so that it doesn't bend/deform when the weight of the connector and cable is on it. In short, it's an issue, but more one of teething problems than anything critical to the charging standard. The original CHAdeMO connectors sucked, too.
 
GRA said:
pkulak said:
Well, it looks like the i3 guys are having a hell of a time getting the combo chargers to, ya know, charge:

http://www.mybmwi3.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=1006" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Looks like it's really finicky about exactly how it's plugged in. If there's too much weight on the end of the handle pulling it down, it won't seat properly on the top.

The more I hear stories about this, and use the new "gun" connectors on the new Blink CHAdeMO units, the more I think that the Combo connectors have nothing on CHAdeMO, and possibly are a step backwards. Those new CHAdeMO connectors are beaten only by the Tesla connection, in my opinion, if that. They are nearly the perfect way to charge your car (apart from all the authentication nonsense, which isn't the spec's fault).
From what I'm reading this is more a physical problem than a strictly electrical one. Clearly, BMW needs to re-design the area around the receptacle so that it doesn't bend/deform when the weight of the connector and cable is on it. In short, it's an issue, but more one of teething problems than anything critical to the charging standard. The original CHAdeMO connectors sucked, too.


So... we could all just support improving the already working fine but clumsy one.... which the gun connectors do... or once again in the interest of proprietary/nationalist idiocy, redesign the wheel. Colossally stupid in my opinion.
 
jsongster said:
GRA said:
pkulak said:
Well, it looks like the i3 guys are having a hell of a time getting the combo chargers to, ya know, charge:

http://www.mybmwi3.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=1006" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Looks like it's really finicky about exactly how it's plugged in. If there's too much weight on the end of the handle pulling it down, it won't seat properly on the top.

The more I hear stories about this, and use the new "gun" connectors on the new Blink CHAdeMO units, the more I think that the Combo connectors have nothing on CHAdeMO, and possibly are a step backwards. Those new CHAdeMO connectors are beaten only by the Tesla connection, in my opinion, if that. They are nearly the perfect way to charge your car (apart from all the authentication nonsense, which isn't the spec's fault).
From what I'm reading this is more a physical problem than a strictly electrical one. Clearly, BMW needs to re-design the area around the receptacle so that it doesn't bend/deform when the weight of the connector and cable is on it. In short, it's an issue, but more one of teething problems than anything critical to the charging standard. The original CHAdeMO connectors sucked, too.


So... we could all just support improving the already working fine but clumsy one.... which the gun connectors do... or once again in the interest of proprietary/nationalist idiocy, redesign the wheel. Colossally stupid in my opinion.
Already working fine? Do you have any Blink CHAdeMO QCs in your area?
 
GRA said:
So... we could all just support improving the already working fine but clumsy one.... which the gun connectors do... or once again in the interest of proprietary/nationalist idiocy, redesign the wheel. Colossally stupid in my opinion.
Already working fine? Do you have any Blink CHAdeMO QCs in your area?[/quote]


Just because Blink may not work well isn't the fault of CHAdeMO. The two at dealers near me I have used and never had a problem.
 
jsongster said:
So... we could all just support improving the already working fine but clumsy one.... which the gun connectors do... or once again in the interest of proprietary/nationalist idiocy, redesign the wheel. Colossally stupid in my opinion.
Besides the bashing and facts we've already given about CCS, http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=183351#p183351" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; was a decent translation of the situation at that time.

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=279363#p279363" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; was one of Tony's updates on the situation. The i3 recently started shipping in the US, but it uses Combo1 in the US vs. Combo2 in Europe (http://www.mychevysparkev.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=5012#p5012" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;). Oh, and it uses CHAdeMo in Japan! (And the J1772 inlet is in the frunk: http://insideevs.com/bmw-i3-gets-chademo-charged-japan/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;).

Spark EV is selling in puny numbers (http://insideevs.com/monthly-plug-in-sales-scorecard/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;) w/J1772 CCS available as an option since either December 2013 or January 2014.

Looks like the next Ford Focus still will have no DC FC. Mercedes B-Class EV also won't have DC FC either.
 
jsongster said:
or once again in the interest of proprietary/nationalist idiocy, redesign the wheel. Colossally stupid in my opinion.

iirc, one of Tony Williams' theories was that they went away from CHAdeMO just to put a stick in the wheels of Nissan.

I have to say they have succeeded in Quebec. We may be the North American state or province with the least DCQC (1) per EV (~3500).

Currently, deployment is on hold because of a perceived need to install dual-standard stations and the preferred provider's dual-standard DCQC is not yet CSA certified. If the requirement was only CHAdeMO, this hurdle would have been crossed long ago.

I estimate there are 5-20 SAE/CCS combo capable Spark EVs or i3s in Quebec, compared to ~750 LEAFs, i-MiEVs and Model S's.
 
Berlino said:
iirc, one of Tony Williams' theories was that they went away from CHAdeMO just to put a stick in the wheels of Nissan.
Theory ? I thought that was a fact ;)

I have to say they have succeeded in Quebec. We may be the North American state or province with the least DCQC (1) per EV (~3500).
Yes, they were trying to make sure Nissan (and other Japanese manufacturers) do not gain any first mover advantage. If you can't beat them in the market place - beat them in the board room.
 
evnow said:
Berlino said:
iirc, one of Tony Williams' theories was that they went away from CHAdeMO just to put a stick in the wheels of Nissan.
Theory ? I thought that was a fact ;)

I have to say they have succeeded in Quebec. We may be the North American state or province with the least DCQC (1) per EV (~3500).
Yes, they were trying to make sure Nissan (and other Japanese manufacturers) do not gain any first mover advantage. If you can't beat them in the market place - beat them in the board room.

I thought competition was great...oh yeah until you aren't competitive then it turns into protectionism is great.
 
aarond12 said:
What happens if/when Tesla opens up their Supercharger standard for the rest of the world?

http://www.engadget.com/2014/06/09/tesla-to-share-supercharger-patents/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Done.

http://www.teslamotors.com/blog/all-our-patent-are-belong-you" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
 
JeffN said:
aarond12 said:
What happens if/when Tesla opens up their Supercharger standard for the rest of the world?

http://www.engadget.com/2014/06/09/tesla-to-share-supercharger-patents/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Done.

http://www.teslamotors.com/blog/all-our-patent-are-belong-you" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Kind of. So far they're offering it only on the condition that other companies also adopt their business model of bundling lifetime free charging into the price of the car. That works rather differently for a long range EV whose only use of Superchargers is occasional inter-city travel, than for a short range EV which relies on regular quick charging for use in the local region.
 
walterbays said:
JeffN said:
aarond12 said:
What happens if/when Tesla opens up their Supercharger standard for the rest of the world?

http://www.engadget.com/2014/06/09/tesla-to-share-supercharger-patents/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Done.

http://www.teslamotors.com/blog/all-our-patent-are-belong-you" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Kind of. So far they're offering it only on the condition that other companies also adopt their business model of bundling lifetime free charging into the price of the car. That works rather differently for a long range EV whose only use of Superchargers is occasional inter-city travel, than for a short range EV which relies on regular quick charging for use in the local region.
The patents are "free" now so one or more other companies can create supercharger stations and support in other cars but, sure, if another company wants their cars to be able use Tesla's own charging infrastructure they would still have to cut a deal for that access.
 
MikeinDenver said:
GRA said:
jsongster said:
So... we could all just support improving the already working fine but clumsy one.... which the gun connectors do... or once again in the interest of proprietary/nationalist idiocy, redesign the wheel. Colossally stupid in my opinion.
Already working fine? Do you have any Blink CHAdeMO QCs in your area?
Just because Blink may not work well isn't the fault of CHAdeMO. The two at dealers near me I have used and never had a problem.
Sure, but jsongster was implying that CHAdeMO is a fully mature technology and standard, and that's not the case. It's gotten better since it was introduced, and the same will undoubtedly occur as CCS teething troubles are addressed.
 
I misunderstood your post then. I read through this whole thread and to me it seems as though companies are just trying to do the whole Betamax vs. VHS all over again. Which doesn't benefit the consumer one bit.
 
MikeinDenver said:
I misunderstood your post then. I read through this whole thread and to me it seems as though companies are just trying to do the whole Betamax vs. VHS all over again. Which doesn't benefit the consumer one bit.
I disagree, to a certain extent. In an ideal world we'd have a single standard early, and every company would do their best to improve that standard. In the real world, CHAdeMO in the U.S. was only being installed with government funds, and once those ran out Nissan was doing virtually nothing to increase CHAdeMO installations. It was only the embarrassment of Tesla with their SC network, and the potential competition from CCS that got them off their butts even a little. Competition is good; if less than the ideal efficiency, it's a lot better than nothing.
 
GRA said:
MikeinDenver said:
I misunderstood your post then. I read through this whole thread and to me it seems as though companies are just trying to do the whole Betamax vs. VHS all over again. Which doesn't benefit the consumer one bit.
I disagree, to a certain extent. In an ideal world we'd have a single standard early, and every company would do their best to improve that standard. In the real world, CHAdeMO in the U.S. was only being installed with government funds, and once those ran out Nissan was doing virtually nothing to increase CHAdeMO installations. It was only the embarrassment of Tesla with their SC network, and the potential competition from CCS that got them off their butts even a little. Competition is good; if less than the ideal efficiency, it's a lot better than nothing.

I do agree it is definitely not black and white. Competition is good when it increases options for consumers. But in this case it is bad for consumers in that it is causing fewer stations to be installed because government entities and private companies don't know which to back. I feel it would benefit consumers if all the auto makers got behind CHAdeMO, improved it and rolled it out. With more manufacturers behind it that benefits us all.
 
Any bets that Elon's patent-release is (at least in part) to throw Tesla's QC protocol into this fray? Why would a low-volume mfr like Porsche or BMW just use the Tesla plug and sign on ($$) to the growing Supercharger network?

Nobody is going to buy an electric Panamera on the slim hope that Evgo puts in coast-to-coast Frankenplugs....
 
GRA said:
MikeinDenver said:
I misunderstood your post then. I read through this whole thread and to me it seems as though companies are just trying to do the whole Betamax vs. VHS all over again. Which doesn't benefit the consumer one bit.
I disagree, to a certain extent. In an ideal world we'd have a single standard early, and every company would do their best to improve that standard. In the real world, CHAdeMO in the U.S. was only being installed with government funds, and once those ran out Nissan was doing virtually nothing to increase CHAdeMO installations. It was only the embarrassment of Tesla with their SC network, and the potential competition from CCS that got them off their butts even a little. Competition is good; if less than the ideal efficiency, it's a lot better than nothing.

And the threat of Frankenplug opened up the CHAdeMO specification, much like Tesla has just done.

I personally think it will be tough for Japan to adopt Supercharger, and they surely won't adopt Frankenplug, but if just one company builds a Supercharger and one auto manufacturer adopts Frankenplug (I'm rooting for Mercedes), then the chips just might fall in the US in favor of Supercharger.

For Europe, I think Germany and German auto makers would otherwise continue to push for regulatory methods to force Frankenplug in Europe, however so far, they haven't been altogether successful blocking CHAdeMO, Supercharger and Chameleon. If just Mercedes jumps ship (remember, they are part owners of Tesla and have not built a single car with any DC or fast AC charging standard), things would get interesting very fast.
 
MikeinDenver said:
GRA said:
I disagree, to a certain extent. In an ideal world we'd have a single standard early, and every company would do their best to improve that standard. In the real world, CHAdeMO in the U.S. was only being installed with government funds, and once those ran out Nissan was doing virtually nothing to increase CHAdeMO installations. It was only the embarrassment of Tesla with their SC network, and the potential competition from CCS that got them off their butts even a little. Competition is good; if less than the ideal efficiency, it's a lot better than nothing.
I do agree it is definitely not black and white. Competition is good when it increases options for consumers. But in this case it is bad for consumers in that it is causing fewer stations to be installed because government entities and private companies don't know which to back. I feel it would benefit consumers if all the auto makers got behind CHAdeMO, improved it and rolled it out. With more manufacturers behind it that benefits us all.
I have seen no evidence at all that not knowing which standard to back was holding up QC installations. The lack of a profitable business model absent govt. subsidies did that, as the bankruptcies of Ecotality and 350Green showed, and CCGI, which bought out many of the failing companies' networks including those two, has horrible financials.

But just ask yourself this question, would we all be better off using MS-DOS, or did we benefit from Apple's introduction of a GUI, even though it meant we had (and have) competing standards?
 
GRA said:
I have seen no evidence at all that not knowing which standard to back was holding up QC installations.

NY State has said that they have not installed Quick Chargers at the Service Plazas on the NYS Thruway because of the uncertainty with charging standards. They are waiting to see which standard "wins".
 
Back
Top