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palmermd said:
I'm not sure there is such a thing as a "B" cell. It is a "B" pack on the Model S. For all we know A,B,C and D packs all use the same cells. Some theorize that the B and newer packs have cell improvements, but other doubt that and just think is is some other limitation related to pack construction. Personally I think they may both be correct.
There are differences to the chemistry and if you look on the forums is not that hard to find. They are also speculated to be higher cap cells to both handle the higher C rating and longevity.

Hell, even the new 135kw Supercharger thread has the "B" series guys worried :lol:
http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/29009-1st-135kW-supercharger-FOUND-in-U-S-(NJ)

That's ALOTA POWER!! :cool: So now's there's the "C" series
 
Tesla confirms the death of the RAV4 EV in 2014... No surprise there, of course!

http://insideevs.com/tesla-confirms-death-toyota-rav4-ev/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
 
TomT said:
Tesla confirms the death of the RAV4 EV in 2014...

http://insideevs.com/tesla-confirms-death-toyota-rav4-ev/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Of course, this isn't news to anybody paying attention.

I just did a Bloomberg interview, so expect to see that come out shortly.
 
scottf200 said:
Title: Toyota Explains Why RAV4 EV Is Dead – Declares Hydrogen Is The Future
http://insideevs.com/toyota-explains-rav4-ev-dead-declares-hydrogen-future/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Got to be one of the most pathetic response ever to a very vital question
 
I posted this on the Toyota Rav4EV forum but since much of the innovative stuff for EVs come from our leaf forum, I thought I'd repost here: http://www.myrav4ev.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=1375" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

"I have been following TonyWilliam's efforts to provide CHAdeMO for Rav4 EV which he terms "JdeMO" with interest and wondered when I might see an open source Chademo implementation for the Rav4EV. I am certain that there will always be a market for the so called JdeMo but for the DIY folks on this forum and other forums, it would really be fun to have an open source version.

As an example, the Jesla came about as Tony's implementation of an open freely available way to convert the Tesla Model S UMC to J1772. It was first done by Phil on the LEAF forum here. BBQ also reported this on this forum here. TonyWilliams posted on the Tesla forum about such a conversion here. I actually did one of these myself but realized its limitations and so went with an open source OpenEVSE build here.

Unfortunately, the only posts I see about CHAdeMo for the Rav4EV are Tony's own about the "JdeMo" The closest efforts in this regard have to do with making a portable mini-CHAdeMO charger by GaryGid and others here but this is, of course, for cars that already have CHAdeMO. Are there others working on an open source version of a CHAdeMO port for the Rav4EV?"

http://www.myrav4ev.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=1375" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
 
My sisters RAV4 EV, which she has been very happy with until now, is in the shop due to failure of some electronic board. No ETA on when the part will arrive (I believe it has been there about a week so far). Apparently Toyota has to get the part from Tesla. So much for the compliance BEV.
 
Things we need in the EV world:

1) Frankenplug charger adaptors, so that the 150,000 CHAdeMO port equipped cars (and several dozen RAV4 and Mercedes B-Class ED''s) can use the Frankenplug when the adjoining CHAdeMO charger is occupied.

The chances of the Frankenplug charger being in use with a few thousand cars driving around is slim, so it will likely always be available.

NOTE: except for some future BMW dealers, virtually EVERY Frankenplug has a CHAdeMO sitting right next to it.

2) CHAdeMO stations everywhere. My latest concept is a regional "JdeMO" network throughout the western US similar to Superchargers:

a. 100-150kW, dual head, just like Superchargers
b. Prepaid for by users
c. custom plug that is not compatible with non-paid users
d. fully compatible with CHAdeMO capable cars
e. "Dumb" stations... it starts and stops on site... no communications that interfere or fail to charge your car
f. between major metro area, LA to SF, SF to Sacto, Sacto to Reno, San Diego to LA, LA to Las Vegas, Seattle to Portland, Sacto to Oregon

Let's do one of the above as "Open Source"
 
Some folks won't be familiar with JdeMO on this forum, so here's the Cliff Notes version:

JdeMO for DC quick charging of the 2012-2014 Toyota Rav4 EV will be available in 2015 from Quick Charge Power.

FAQ's:

1) How fast will the Rav4 EV be able to charge?

Answer: It will charge at approximately 400 volts DC and 125 amps, or about 48kW. That means that it can charge from 20% to 80% of the battery usable capacity in approximately 35-40 minutes. This will add about 33.3kWh or about 100 miles of additional range at 3 miles per kWh consumption rate.


2) What kind of chargers can I use?

Answer: You will still be able to use the existing J1772 plug for charging, and additionally will also be able to also use any CHAdeMO charge station anywhere in the world. This is commonly known as the same quick charger used for the Nissan LEAF, KIA Soul EV or Mitsubishi iMiev.

You specifically will NOT be able to use the Tesla Supercharger system, nor will it work at CCS Combo1 chargers used by GM Spark EV, BMW i3 and Volkswagon eGolf.


3) Where are these CHAdeMO chargers located?

Answer: We recommend using http://www.PlugShare.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; or http://www.chademo.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; to find a station.


4) Will JdeMO damage the car in any way?

Answer: No, If operating as designed. But, increasing the charge rate to any battery that has ever been designed in the history of mankind will likely shorten its lifespan.


5) Will it void my warranty?

Answer: It should not void any warranty, however we do not have control of how any auto manufacturer will likely handle a battery warranty claim. In all likelihood, any battery failure would likely be blamed on any product connected to the battery, no matter how unlikely it actually did damage. Therefore, each JdeMO sale will require a "hold harmless" agreement that indemnifies Quick Charge Power LLC from any claim. This may preclude JdeMO sales in the state / commonwealth of Massachusetts.

Federal law sets forth requirements for warranties and contains a number of provisions to prevent vehicle manufacturers, dealers and others from unjustly denying warranty coverage. With regard to aftermarket parts, the spirit of the law is that warranty coverage cannot be denied simply because such parts are present on the vehicle, or have been used. The warranty coverage can be denied only if the aftermarket part caused the malfunction or damage for which warranty coverage is sought. Disputes in this area usually boil down to arguments over facts and technical opinions, rather than arguments over interpretations of the law.
Like the Magnuson-Moss Act, vehicle manufacturers may not refuse warranty repairs under the Clean Air Acts performance and defect warranties merely because aftermarket parts have been installed on the vehicle. The only circumstance under which the vehicle manufacturer can void the emissions warranties is if an aftermarket part is responsible for (causes) the warranty claim.

Should something go wrong, the warranty provider will need to determine the cause of the problem. The Federal Trade Commission says, “The manufacturer or dealer must show that the aftermarket or recycled part caused the need for repairs before denying warranty coverage.” That means if the dealer can prove (the burden is on the dealer) the problem was caused by the wrong viscosity or a poor quality oil filter, your warranty can be denied. Warranty protection would still be in effect for other parts of the cars.


6) Will there be a warranty on the JdeMO?

Answer: All Quick Charge Power products offer a one year limited warranty.


7) Will it be possible to remove JdeMO on a lease return car?

Answer: Yes , but only by personnel specifically authorized in writing by Quick Charge Power.


8) Do I need to remove JdeMO to have normal service or maintenance performed?

Answer: Absolutely not. We specifically do not want you handling, modifying, repairing or in any way changing JdeMO except to recharge your Rav4 EV from a CHAdeMO charger. If you need to remove JdeMO for any reason, contact Quick Charge Power for instructions.

WARNING: HIGH VOLTAGE CAN KILL. DO NOT TOUCH, MODIFY, HANDLE, REPAIR OR CHANGE JdeMO IN ANY WAY.


9) Can I charge with a CHAdeMO charger and the J1772 plug at the same time?

Answer: No. On a somewhat related note, we anticipate being able to offer a dual onboard charger option in the future that can operate from two separate J1772 plugs, or two NEMA 14-50 outlets (with two JESLA's). It will add almost 60 miles additional range per hour of charging.


10) Can I install JdeMO myself?

Answer: Absolutely not. We specifically do not want you handling, modifying, repairing or in any way changing JdeMO except to recharge your Rav4 EV from a CHAdeMO charger. If you need to remove JdeMO for any reason, contact Quick Charge Power for instructions.

WARNING: HIGH VOLTAGE CAN KILL. DO NOT TOUCH, MODIFY, HANDLE, REPAIR OR CHANGE JdeMO IN ANY WAY.


11) Can my local Toyota dealer install JdeMO?

Answer: Yes, with a properly trained Prius or EV trained technician.


12) How long will it take to install?

Answer: About one hour.


13) Will JdeMO be able to power my house through the CHAdeMO plug?

Answer: Yes, it will be compatible with CHAdeMO specification 1.0, therefore with appropriate external equipment, it may work.


14) I have heard that CHAdeMO in the future will be 100kW capable. Will JdeMO be able to charge at that rate?

Answer: No, because in order to get the full 100kW would require a 500 volt battery. Like most modern electric vehicles, the Rav4 EV uses a 400 volt battery, therefore the maximum charge rate would be 200 amps multiplied by 400 volts, or about 80kW. Additionally, we do not know if the plug will be the same.


15) Where will JdeMO be mounted?

Answer: It will all fit entirely under the hood. To charge, you will open the hood and plug in the CHAdeMO plug.


16) How much will it cost?

Answer: We believe the cost will be around $2000, however no price has been set.


RESERVATIONS:

We will open up reservations for delivery of the first JdeMO products on August 9, 2014 at 9am. To be first on the registration list and to pay the required $1000 deposit.

UPDATE: Deposits closed Sept 30, 2014


To get on the JdeMO interest list, just send an email with your name, city, state and phone number to:

JdeMO ((@)) QuickChargePower.com


Thanks,

Tony Williams
R&D Manager
Quick Charge Power LLC
TonyWilliams ((@)) QuickChargePower.com
http://www.QuickChargePower.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
1-844-EVPARTS
1-844-387-2787 office
 
TonyWilliams said:
...Let's do one of the above as "Open Source"
I responded on the other forum but will do it here too. These are good thoughts but don't you think that a Frankenplug to CHAdeMO adapter would be more of a challenge since the charging protocols are different? For example for L2 charging, making a Tesla plug to J1772 adapter or cutting off the Tesla plug and putting on a J1772 is more doable since its the same protocol.

In fact, wouldn't it be easier to put a CHAdeMO port on a frankenplug car like the BMW i3, than actually making an adapter from SAE CCS to CHAdeMO? I imagine one way to implement CHAdeMO is to intercept the car's charging handshake signals and tell it that it's OK to charge and then send in direct current into the battery using a CHAdeMO port.
 
eHelmholtz said:
TonyWilliams said:
...Let's do one of the above as "Open Source"
I responded on the other forum but will do it here too. These are good thoughts but don't you think that a Frankenplug to CHAdeMO adapter would be more of a challenge since the charging protocols are different? For example for L2 charging, making a Tesla plug to J1772 adapter or cutting off the Tesla plug and putting on a J1772 is more doable since its the same protocol.

In fact, wouldn't it be easier to put a CHAdeMO port on a frankenplug car like the BMW i3, than actually making an adapter from SAE CCS to CHAdeMO? I imagine one way to implement CHAdeMO is to intercept the car's charging handshake signals and tell it that it's OK to charge and then send in direct current into the battery using a CHAdeMO port.

I'm confident that any adaptor that includes differing communication protocols will be a challenge.

The adaptor that I suggested was to charge the 60,000 cars in the USA with a Frankenplug, not the other way around. Since the several CCS stations (all 23 of them) in the USA usually have a CHAdeMO station sitting right next to it, the odds of finding CHAdeMO in use and Frankenplug growing cobwebs is high. Let's put them to use !!!

Yes, adding a CHAdeMO port would likely be easier on i3, and we have that in the works for late 2015, just like we are currently doing on RAV4 EV and Mercedes B-Class ED.
 
TonyWilliams said:
I'm confident that any adaptor that includes differing communication protocols will be a challenge.

The adaptor that I suggested was to charge the 60,000 cars in the USA with a Frankenplug, not the other way around. Since the several CCS stations (all 23 of them) in the USA usually have a CHAdeMO station sitting right next to it, the odds of finding CHAdeMO in use and Frankenplug growing cobwebs is high. Let's put them to use !!!

Yes, adding a CHAdeMO port would likely be easier on i3, and we have that in the works for late 2015, just like we are currently doing on RAV4 EV and Mercedes B-Class ED.
Yes, this is why I thought that going for an open source CHAdeMO inlet would be easier than building an adapter. Incidentally, when I said an adapter I meant a Frankenplug to CHAdeMO inlet adapter so that frankenplug cars can charge ast CHAdeMo stations.
 
eHelmholtz said:
TonyWilliams said:
I'm confident that any adaptor that includes differing communication protocols will be a challenge.

The adaptor that I suggested was to charge the 60,000 cars in the USA with a Frankenplug, not the other way around. Since the several CCS stations (all 23 of them) in the USA usually have a CHAdeMO station sitting right next to it, the odds of finding CHAdeMO in use and Frankenplug growing cobwebs is high. Let's put them to use !!!

Yes, adding a CHAdeMO port would likely be easier on i3, and we have that in the works for late 2015, just like we are currently doing on RAV4 EV and Mercedes B-Class ED.
Yes, this is why I thought that going for an open source CHAdeMO inlet would be easier than building an adapter. Incidentally, when I said an adapter I meant a Frankenplug to CHAdeMO inlet adapter so that frankenplug cars can charge ast CHAdeMo stations.

I'm not sure which is a more worthwhile adaptor; 60,000 cars in the US that can use 23 Franken-stations or several thousand Frankenplug cars that can access about 700 exisiting CHAdeMO stations.
 
(Finally found this old post)
cossie1600 said:
I leased both the Toyota and Nissan on the same month, let's see how they compare over the next three years as I am stuck with them regardless. As owner of a Prius and a 370z, I can tell you what is more reliable and what companies have more competent people working for them. Since I am leasing them, I am not really worried about it.
So, how do they compare now? I haven't kept track of your repairs on the Rav4 EV, but it sounds like you had a heater fail and have been experiencing a noisy drivetrain, which isn't too surprising for Tesla drivetrains. :roll:
 
I finally found this old thread (your reply at http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=320975#p320975" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;) that I was trying to dig up.
cossie1600 said:
I leased both the Toyota and Nissan on the same month, let's see how they compare over the next three years as I am stuck with them regardless. As owner of a Prius and a 370z, I can tell you what is more reliable and what companies have more competent people working for them. Since I am leasing them, I am not really worried about it.
Well, we're not at the 3 year mark yet. Is the Leaf holding up better from a reliability POV than the Rav4 EV?

I haven't tracked your posts, but I see you mention on your Rav4 EV your heater and DC to DC converter were replaced (http://www.myrav4ev.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=12037#p12037" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;) and it sounded like you got a new drive unit too, due to noise. If so, none of these are too surprising.
 
We have now shipped almost 100 units of JdeMO for the 2012-2014 RAV4 EV, which allows use of over 11,000 CHAdeMO DC fast chargers in the world at almost 50kW.

$2999, plus shipping, tax, etc

Installation costs are typically $299, but that can vary depending on who installs it. It takes an experienced team of two about 2.5 hours. I would guess it could be a weekend project for an experienced auto repair hobbyist.


http://shop.quickchargepower.com/JdeMo-for-Rav4EV-JdeMORav4.htm


Here's a nice article from one of our customers:

https://transportevolved.com/2015/10/05/reader-rides-quick-charging-a-2012-toyota-rav4-ev-with-chademo/


Here's a map of where current customers are around the world:

http://www.zeemaps.com/view?group=1495202&x=-56.334407&y=46.576488&z=14

Yellow - not scheduled for delivery

Red - Alpha testers

Orange - Installed, operational

White - shipped, not installed
 
The report below (if confirmed) may have been inevitable, and the same fate may await many for other 2012-201? compliance BEVs in the future.

While I've always regarded the RAV4 as one of the most compromised of all the (CARB) compliance BEVs, I would rather see their service life extend beyond only ~3 years.

Sadly, most all compliance BEVs on the road today are likely only seen as future financial liabilities, from the standpoint of their manufacturers.

lease returns SCRAPPED ? could this be true ?

...According to the EV technician, they had 6 ! rav4ev's on their rooftop parking lot, waiting for a special transport.
I said "for auction, right ?"
He answered "no, to be scrapped"
He basically told me they will take all the Tesla parts of it, to be able to service the remaining rav4ev's, including the extended warranty units.
Tesla was basically refusing to supply parts in a timely manner and toyota changed to harvesting returns of ends-of-lease...
http://www.myrav4ev.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=2134&sid=0e89dbbf32c7b10577de246f0f66fabe
 
The reason for crushing some of the 2012-2014 Rav4 EVs was given... to get a source of Tesla components, since Tesla is not very timely in getting parts out for warranty and repairs. This has been an ongoing problem since Day 1.

Whatever you wish to read into that is your own choice.

It’s obviously cheaper for Toyota to resell the cars at market value, and tell repair / warranty customers to wait. Toyota has (finally) decided to do something, because Tesla does not respond fast enough.

In addition, there are plenty of regulatory issues with not having the parts for warranty repairs. I have been telling folks to ALWAYS get the Toyota Platinum warranty (up to 10 years / 125,000 miles), so Toyota will be on the hook for a LONG time.

Of course, every car they crush is a potential future warranty claim that was just eliminated from the warranty pool.
 
TonyWilliams said:
The reason for crushing some of the 2012-2014 Rav4 EVs was given... to get a source of Tesla components, since Tesla is not very timely in getting parts out for warranty and repairs. This has been an ongoing problem since Day 1.

Whatever you wish to read into that is your own choice.
I can imagine that providing components for a very limited number of Rav4 EVs has not been the highest priority for Tesla, particularly as there seems to be no future in the relationship with Toyota. This is unfortunate, though, as the Tesla brand is suffering as a result.

Given the situation, I don't fault Toyota for stripping some of these EVs for parts. At least the EV batteries and drivetrains aren't going to waste. This is nothing like last decade when perfectly good EVs were crushed.
 
(Thread resurrection)

I stumbled across https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/early-drive-unit-milling-noise-fix.145078/ which had this guy's Google doc and photos at
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1A6n0bkLowViFNtoD2bjzkL_IHk5RLS-mvYRUpe2qzGA/edit?usp=sharing
https://photos.app.goo.gl/fUffopAvPV64R6kBA

He said:
Hi everybody, I recently purchased a Rav4 EV with 126,000 miles. This car had terrible drive unit bearing noise, so I took it upon myself to try to fix it.

The Rav4 uses almost exactly the same drive unit as the model S with the large motor, so it has almost exactly the same issues. This was cross posted in the myRav4EV forums, but I thought you might be interested too.

ALL of the noise was caused by bearing failure, however taking it apart exposed a seal failure as well.
Three bearings were in bad shape. The motor bearings had axial play, and the gearbox pinion bearing had fretting on the outer race, indicative of shaft voltage.

Here is a google doc describing it: Rav4 EV drive unit “Milling” noise repair

Please excuse the crudity of the document, I didn't have time to build it to scale, or to paint it.

Lots more pictures here:
https://photos.app.goo.gl/fUffopAvPV64R6kBA

This is my first experience working on an EV, and let me tell you, they are so much easier to work on than gas cars.

Since there are no drive unit service manuals or internal parts available from Toyota, or presumably Tesla, I would encourage others to share as much as you can about replacement pieces and procedures
 
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