Volkswagen Group Massive Emissions Fraud Scheme

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KillaWhat said:
<snip>
Did they fail to meet the CARB standard, or did the just "cheat to get a better grade".
If you're asking about what VW did,

The agencies charged that the electronic control module (ECM) in the vehicles in question—roughly 482,000 diesel passenger cars—sold in the US since 2008—contains software that detects when the car is undergoing official emissions testing. Based on that ability, during EPA emission testing, the tainted ECM ran software which produced compliant emissions results under an unique ECM calibration. At all other times during normal vehicle operation, the vehicle ECM software ran a separate road calibration which reduced the effectiveness of the emission control system (specifically the selective catalytic reduction or the lean NOx trap).

As result, emissions of NOx increased by a factor of 10 to 40 times above the EPA compliant levels,
depending on the the of drive cycle, the agencies charged.

BTW, your Passats wouldn't be affected (only 2014-2015 MYs), just the A3 (2009-2015 MYs).

VW attempting damage control, via GCC: http://www.greencarcongress.com/2015/09/20150920-vwag.html

On Sunday, Volkswagen Group CEO Prof. Dr. Martin Winterkorn said that Volkswagen does “not and will not tolerate violations of any kind of our internal rules or of the law”, and said that the company “will cooperate fully with the responsible agencies, with transparency and urgency, to clearly, openly, and completely establish all of the facts of this case.” Volkswagen has ordered an external investigation as well.

The Board of Management at Volkswagen AG takes these findings very seriously. I personally am deeply sorry that we have broken the trust of our customers and the public.

The trust of our customers and the public is and continues to be our most important asset. We at Volkswagen will do everything that must be done in order to re-establish the trust that so many people have placed in us, and we will do everything necessary in order to reverse the damage this has caused. This matter has first priority for me, personally, and for our entire Board of Management.

—Prof. Dr. Martin Winterkorn
The pounding will continue for months, just one more thing to distract Congress from more important business.
 
If you've haven't already read it, here's a piece from Green Car Reports with a pretty detailed review of this incident.

http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1100125_vw-diesel-emissions-recall-what-you-need-to-know-in-10-questions
 
Anyone who has ever driven behind a diesel - cough, cough - can tell you there is no such thing as a clean diesel. This should put an end to diesels in passenger cars for good.

keydiver said:
My friend knows that any fix for his Jetta is going to effect gas mileage and performance, so he says he will refuse to take it in for the modifications. I'm supposing that will be the reaction of most owners, so how do you force them to fix their gross polluter?

California should quickly change smog check rules to require that all diesels get annual tests. If you don't get the software update you don't pass the test. If you don't pass the test, or fail to get the test, you don't get a license plate renewal. If you drive your car without a license plate you lose your drivers license. If you drive without a license you go to jail.

https://www.dmv.ca.gov/portal/dmv/?1dmy&urile=wcm:path:/dmv_content_en/dmv/vr/smogfaq#BM2535
 
Much of the stink from American diesels was from the extra sulphur in the fuel. It was left there for decades because the oil industry didn't want to spend an extra penny a gallon to remove it. Now that it's gone, diesel cars at least smell less bad, but I'd still prefer to be behind a Prius or leaf in traffic.
 
Given that the fix to the emission controls will probably greatly reduce torque and MPG, and resale value; given that will almost surely result in a class action lawsuit against VW; given that the EPA can fine them $37,500 per car sold fraudulently; I wonder if another action than a recall might make sense.

Replace every diesel VW and Audi with something like a new VW Jetta Hybrid, $31k, 42/48 MPG, or VW e-Golf EV, $34k. Society would be ahead with 500,000 rolling smog factories replaced with low emission vehicles. Drivers would be better off with new cars giving similar performance. VW would be better off than with a class action suit plus EPA fines, though worse off than if they had never cheated.

PS - wouldn't all those diesels going into the car crushers make a nice counterpoint to the fate of the EV-1?
 
Surprised that it took so long to show up - the inevitable "Downfall" parody, in this case more appropriate than most given the Bug's development history as well as Ferdinand Porsche's later tank design work:
Hitler Reacts To The VW-EPA Scandal Dieselgate
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dKef1JFpiCA&feature=youtu.be
 
So what happens to owners of these diesel? If the reports are correct these cars are not compliant with EPA or CARB requirements and thus cannot be registered or sold. In fact, I'm not sure they can be legally driven anywhere advocates moment. These folks acted in good faith, shouldn't VW a) make these cars compliant, if the fix is too expensive, b) buy the cars back at whatever they were worth before this came to light, and crush them. C) Provide alternative transportation to owners if these cars are ordered off the roads.

You could argue over any fines VW should be assessed but as a minimum, owners of these cars should not be forced to suffer financially for something they had no part in.
 
sparky said:
So if your the EPA or CARB, and you actually have VW's nuts in a vise, what do you do next?
The value of the fine could be as much as $18B.
I'll start.
Perhaps:
Tell them they can sell only EVs in the U.S. until:
1) VW invests $5B in a U.S. battery gigafactory to produce packs for at least 100,000 cars /yr.
2) Starting in 2018, VW builds/sells a minimum of 50,000 200mi EVs at cost.
3) VW installs/maintains a supercharger network allowing coast to coast travel.
4) VW sells 482,000 200mi+ BEVs in the U.S.

Maybe they'll learn to kick the diesel habit and all the "clean diesel" b.s. that goes with it.
p.s. I know, I know. The govt is picking winners (EVs) and losers (diesel) here. But EVs are a clear winner, except on cost and infrastructure, over diesel.

Other ways to re-direct anger?

Nice. The punishment should fit the crime. The EVW.
 
Valdemar said:
LKK said:
I have difficulty in believing any manufacturer would act in such an outrageous manner. If these allegations are proven to be true I really think VW should be prohibited from selling any more cars.

Really? What do you think of GM then? Their cars killed people.
An interesting question that also occurred to me. My take is that the difference is that VW did this deliberately to game the pollution requirements while GM did not intend for the ignition switch to fail as it did. GM's problem was that they were slow to respond to the problem when it was discovered, and tried to avoid doing anything about it for awhile, something I would attribute to the company being a slow-moving, many-layered, bureaucracy. GM didn't set out to build cars that would kill people. VW did set out to build cars that would pollute, to gain performance and sales.

Whether the increased NOx pollution can be connected to health issues of those living in polluted cities is hard to determine. But it is by no means harmless.
 
Valdemar said:
One has to wonder, what were they thinking?
+1 Surely this was going to show up sometime given the incredible results the noncompliant cars were giving... A competitor pointing noting this and investigating comes to mind... It's getting ugly...

On another note, they make a nice EV...
 
KillaWhat said:
Did they fail to meet the CARB standard, or did the just "cheat to get a better grade".
http://www.cleanmpg.com/forums/showthread.php?t=52425 has an overview including a copy of the letter from CARB to VW.
 
walterbays said:
Anyone who has ever driven behind a diesel - cough, cough - can tell you there is no such thing as a clean diesel. This should put an end to diesels in passenger cars for good...
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Yes! As a bicycle commuter I HATE diesels. Around here trucks are one of the most common light duty vehicles and nearly all of them are diesels. Even the VW passenger car diesels stink and emit soot. "Clean" diesel is an oxymoron. As VW has shown.

The eventual fine will be a wrist-slap like GM and Toyota got. But the cost in dealing with lawsuits, recalls, and the loss in company reputation might be enough to get other car companies to think twice before engaging in cheating and fraud. Or maybe I'm being naive...
 
sparky said:
So if your the EPA or CARB, and you actually have VW's nuts in a vise, what do you do next?
The value of the fine could be as much as $18B.
I'll start.
Perhaps:
Tell them they can sell only EVs in the U.S. until:
1) VW invests $5B in a U.S. battery gigafactory to produce packs for at least 100,000 cars /yr.
2) Starting in 2018, VW builds/sells a minimum of 50,000 200mi EVs at cost.
3) VW installs/maintains a supercharger network allowing coast to coast travel.
4) VW sells 482,000 200mi+ BEVs in the U.S.

Maybe they'll learn to kick the diesel habit and all the "clean diesel" b.s. that goes with it.
p.s. I know, I know. The govt is picking winners (EVs) and losers (diesel) here. But EVs are a clear winner, except on cost and infrastructure, over diesel.

Other ways to re-direct anger?
I think they'd gladly agree to stop selling any cars in the U.S. if the penalties and 'ultimatums' were/are so draconian. Unless I read or remember incorrectly, they only sell about 5% of their vehicles here. I think I read that on the "TDIClub" forum, btw, where they already have 140 pages on the issue.
 
mbender said:
I think they'd gladly agree to stop selling any cars in the U.S. if the penalties and 'ultimatums' were/are so draconian. Unless I read or remember incorrectly, they only sell about 5% of their vehicles here. I think I read that on the "TDIClub" forum, btw, where they already have 140 pages on the issue.

The fines are not optional.

Not only do they have real property in the US like the massive Tenn factory but other real property as well.

And they can't just go hide in Europe.

VW brand is not a big seller in the USA. But VW Group is also Audi, Porsche,Lamborghini, Bentley, and Bugatti. That is a lot of revenue. Plus their North American strategy's bedrock is the US market. VW Group has a VW and a separate Audi factory in Mexico.

Even if they did try to hide in Europe the US government would go after their assets all over the world.
I
 
It just got a lot worse. It now appears to affect every VAG 2.0l diesel sold worldwide as others have suggested it might.

11 million vehicles.

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/23/business/international/volkswagen-diesel-car-scandal.html
 
drees said:
It just got a lot worse. It now appears to affect every VAG 2.0l diesel sold worldwide as others have suggested it might.

11 million vehicles.

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/23/business/international/volkswagen-diesel-car-scandal.html
...and another 20% drop in share price...
 
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