Price to retrofit a used 2011-2015 Leaf with a new 30 kWh (or higher) battery?

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Stanton said:
Roadburner440 said:
However that 9-11 hour recharge time would be about the only drawback I could think of for me going to a 30kwh pack. So there will be reasons to lure people to get a new Leaf if they so choose.

I think you're overestimating that charge time. If I can charge my 24 kWh pack in < 5 hours (L2), then a 30 kWh pack shouldn't be more than 7-8. I will be happy to get my 24 kWh "lizard" replacement pack, but the reality is eventually Nissan will stop making (2) versions of the battery pack and only 30 kWh will be sold. However, that should take at least another year since they are selling a 24 kWh 2016 "S" version.

I think even if Roadburner was a bit off on charge time estimate, they still have a point. A 2012 Leaf burdened with one of the old 3.3 kW AC onboard chargers for L2 might, as you say, take about 7-8 hours to charge from nearly depleted to nearly full. This is a bit of a pain, though not prohibitive to ownership. Also it leads to the question of whether a 30 kWh retrofit, whether carried out paid for by the owner or by the dealer, could also include an onboard AC charge equipment retrofit to 6.6 kW or higher and how much this would add to the cost.

Good point about probable reduction in sales of 24 kWh variants as versus 30 kWh variants, though it would seem to depend in part on pricing decisions.
 
Good point about probable reduction in sales of 24 kWh variants as versus 30 kWh variants, though it would seem to depend in part on pricing decisions.

For 2014 and 2015 the #1 selling trim level for the LEAF in California was the "S" trim with the 3.3Kw charger. This will probably carry through for 2016.

The rankings is:
#1 LEAF S
#2 LEAF SL
#3 LEAF SV

New purchasers of the LEAF (in California) seem to be looking for cheap economical transportation first and recharge time second (if charging time even comes into the purchase equation)
 
Perhaps an additional question would be - how much would folks be willing to pay to buy a used Leaf retrofitted with a new battery. I'm not that interested in a 24 kWh Leaf, new, used, or whatever, but I'd be slightly interested in a used Leaf with a 30 kWh new battery. I guess about $18k would seem about right to me. It doesn't mean I will do this (I very likely won't, even if I run across it) but under other circumstances, maybe.
 
It's in Nissan's interest to allow a 30 kWh pack retrofit on previous year cars, if nothing else to stop the hemorrhaging of depreciation plaguing used Leafs.

Nissan owns the majority of them and the crappy residuals forces leasing subsidies on new cars as residuals tank.

I can't see Nissan doing something that wouldn't be in their interest, and a 30 kWh retrofit - perhaps on CPO models at some point in the future- would elevate the floor on these cars. It would also be a more interesting reason to keep the car rather than dumping it at lease end.
 
EvieInCA said:
It's in Nissan's interest to allow a 30 kWh pack retrofit on previous year cars, if nothing else to stop the hemorrhaging of depreciation plaguing used Leafs.

Nissan owns the majority of them and the crappy residuals forces leasing subsidies on new cars as residuals tank.

I can't see Nissan doing something that wouldn't be in their interest, and a 30 kWh retrofit - perhaps on CPO models at some point in the future- would elevate the floor on these cars. It would also be a more interesting reason to keep the car rather than dumping it at lease end.

Basically, I agree, or at least I haven't heard a compelling argument why it is not in Nissan's interests. It would make sense in my view at least to have more discussion of what the issues are and see if a case can be made for Nissan offering 30 kWh retrofits.

It's hard to speculate in such matters since we are not privy to the exact numbers (even if the costs for the party paying for the retrofit would be not only the battery but also some possibly expensive associated equipment). Even though it's hard for outsiders to speculate, I think it would be worth it to press the matter.

When I started the thread there were those who focused in on whether Nissan would do this rather than whether it would make sense for them to do it. I think there were others who opined that in their view it would not make sense for Nissan to do this. I think we should not forget that there is some history of Nissan at first not doing things that make sense, but eventually coming around.
 
I'd be shocked if the larger pack wasn't a drop in replacement, perhaps with some very minor software tweaks.

Having a larger pack launched prior to the full model refresh is literally the best thing that's happened to this car since the 2013 update.
 
EvieInCA said:
I'd be shocked if the larger pack wasn't a drop in replacement, perhaps with some very minor software tweaks.

I don't remember if I heard this on this board, from Nissan, or somewhere else, but I've heard a reason that contributes to the non-availability of the 30 kWh for retrofitting into the older Leafs is that there is actually substantially more than would need to be altered than the battery. BMS? Something else? I'm not sure what was meant. [edit: This is not to say that I think we should stop asking Nissan to be open-minded to possibly changing their mind about this, and I think it would be good to ask them for some information. Perhaps they are concerned it would be very exepensive whereas some of us might still be interested? It's hard to know without more information.]

EvieInCA said:
Having a larger pack launched prior to the full model refresh is literally the best thing that's happened to this car since the 2013 update.
 
EvieInCA said:
It's in Nissan's interest to allow a 30 kWh pack retrofit on previous year cars, if nothing else to stop the hemorrhaging of depreciation plaguing used Leafs. .
Not sure I see that..
I don't think the value of a used car would be that different with a 24kWh pack as opposed to a 30kWh pack.
Assuming they are both "new" packs, it's a used car..

I can't see KBB listing the value of a 2012 Leaf with a 30kWh pack being all that much higher than one with a 24, so I don't see it affecting the depreciation...

And, it's in Nissan's best interest to sell new cars, so I'm not sure I see the benefit on their end..

I think it would be great, but I don't see it from that perspective.
Perhaps, if it's more cost effective to produce all 30kWh packs, then maybe.. Otherwise, I don't see it..

desiv
 
I know of one Nissan service center that hates the Leaf due to little maintenance required. Nissan corp could throw them a bone with a battery upgrade service.
 
I can anticipate getting a replacement battery given how long I usually own same car. Depending on pricing difference, I might likely not pay more for a 30. By then I would have driven for years living within aging capacity of 24. The extra benefit of 30 may not be that important. As the software developer for my business applications said many years ago when I wondered about an expensive feature with some incremental benefit, it is not exactly Hercules Unchained.
 
One more year and 30kwh won't mean much.

If they can, Nissan should get the 2nd gen battery backward compatible. If that is 50 kWh or more, it would have good market take.
 
desiv said:
And, it's in Nissan's best interest to sell new cars, so I'm not sure I see the benefit on their end..

I'd venture an educated guess that Nissan will move a larger inventory of CPO+used LEAFs than new ones next year.

Those cars make their way to auction or dealers to get dispositioned; so yes, Nissan's best interest to keep residual values strong. Spillover benefit is leasing is more attractive with a floor on used that helps them move new.

This is precisely why Nissan is offering $5k+ buyout incentives at lease end - to keep those cars from over-saturating the market.

The #1 issue with used EVs is battery condition. The #1 deficit for the LEAF vs other EVs is range. A new 30 kWh battery in a used LEAF solves both issues, representing an extremely attractive alternative to other efficient cars.

Moreover, the 2017 model is rumored to have even more range/capacity, so there's a differentiator for the new LEAFs inside of 12 months.
 
Havent thought of this till now but if I were Nissan, I would take all lease end cars and pull the packs with 11 or 10 bars and install new 30KWh packs in them (or even 24KWh lizards). They would bring a premium at the sales. Then all the old packs could be sent for warranty claims.
 
gemrough said:
Havent thought of this till now but if I were Nissan, I would take all lease end cars and pull the packs with 11 or 10 bars and install new 30KWh packs in them (or even 24KWh lizards). They would bring a premium at the sales. Then all the old packs could be sent for warranty claims.
It's not free for Nissan, they pay for the warranty... It's cheaper to offer $5k off purchase to the lease holder, as they have been doing, than to spend the $6k (current pack, more $ for the larger pack, no doubt) to put in a new battery.
 
Firetruck41 said:
gemrough said:
Havent thought of this till now but if I were Nissan, I would take all lease end cars and pull the packs with 11 or 10 bars and install new 30KWh packs in them (or even 24KWh lizards). They would bring a premium at the sales. Then all the old packs could be sent for warranty claims.
It's not free for Nissan, they pay for the warranty... It's cheaper to offer $5k off purchase to the lease holder, as they have been doing, than to spend the $6k (current pack, more $ for the larger pack, no doubt) to put in a new battery.
Selling it $5k cheaper does nothing to the possibility of a warranty claim.
 
Except if a new 30kWh battery fetches more than the 24kWh at auction or on dealer lots.

Which it would...
 
EvieInCA said:
Except if a new 30kWh battery fetches more than the 24kWh at auction or on dealer lots.

Which it would...
But how much more?
Possibly not much for an older car... At least not what it's value is in a new car.
Unless Nissan has a fair amount of profit in those packs at those prices, I'm just not sure it's worth it..

If you were buying a used Leaf, you'd pay more for a new 30kWh pack one over a degraded 24kWh one, but how much more?
Probably not $6k more...

Now, if Nissan can sell the used packs (we heard about possibly uses for the old packs, but??) to off set the cost, maybe..
People might pay $3k more for that...

But again, Nissan doesn't want to discourage the person who might want the 30kWh pack in a new car...

desiv
 
desiv said:
EvieInCA said:
Except if a new 30kWh battery fetches more than the 24kWh at auction or on dealer lots.

Which it would...
But how much more?
Possibly not much for an older car... At least not what it's value is in a new car.
Unless Nissan has a fair amount of profit in those packs at those prices, I'm just not sure it's worth it..

If you were buying a used Leaf, you'd pay more for a new 30kWh pack one over a degraded 24kWh one, but how much more?
Probably not $6k more...

Now, if Nissan can sell the used packs (we heard about possibly uses for the old packs, but??) to off set the cost, maybe..
People might pay $3k more for that...

But again, Nissan doesn't want to discourage the person who might want the 30kWh pack in a new car...

desiv

Here is what I would pay, given my present parameters and driving needs:

used Leaf with pre-Lizard original (used) battery: I would not pay more than $2-3k (especially in Arizona).
used Leaf with new Lizard 24 kWh battery: maybe about $6k.
used Leaf with new Lizard formulation 30 kWh battery (if Nissan would offer this retrofit, which they presently decline to do): $9k
used Leaf with new Lizard formulation 40 kWh battery (for the sake of fantasy): $15k-$20k.
competing new vehicle of any sort, whether leased or financed or paid for in cash: I am (perhaps) not inclined to do this, at this time.

notes:

historically a used-but-reliable vehicle that I can own for a moderate price is usually strongly preferable to me over a new car because I am strongly averse to paying depreciation on a new car. I am happy to pay less for a vehicle which may not look great but suits my needs.
Basically, other than my present Leaf, I have owned used reliable cars purchased for around $5k and (usually) driven for as many miles as I can get out of them.
I would be happy to take this approach with a used BEV but we are not there yet in terms of the used prices coming down and even assuming I compromise and borrow money:
1) the used Leaf is locked into 24 kWh according to Nissan's present policy of only offering a 24 kWh replacement.
2) we are on the verge of dramatically bigger batteries and many more choices which will render "inflexible" BEVs such as the Leaf less valuable, over the long run.
3) for my personal situation, in order for me finally to get into a BEV and get rid of my second gasoline car, I estimate that I need at least (bare minimum) 80 miles of highway (70 mph) range. So, going from 24 kWh to 30 kWh doesn't get that done for me. That's why I put up a seemingly lowball price for a 30 kWh vehicle but also added a hypothetical 40 kWh vehicle. This (a 40 kWh hypothetical new battery on a used BEV) would save me money in allowing me to commit to owning it over many years (perhaps paying for a battery repalcement after another 80k-100k) and getting rid of my gasoline car.

However, on this last point, as to a hypothetical 30 kWh Leaf retrofit (yes, I know, at present Nissan indicates this is not happening, I'm just running through the exercise). I guess I could look at it in a different light in that it would (if done well) be a wonderful alternative to paying the depreciation on a new Kia Soul EV which has about the same range.

The timing isn't right for me on a lot of this (my lease is up in a few months, and I know of no indication that Nissan might consider a 30 kWh retrofit)) and so this is all really just an exercise, but in 5-10 years maybe there will be more choices for me in the used BEV markets. In the meantime, I can look at the used PHEV markets, or revert to gasoline only for awhile, or maybe compromise for another few years and lease or finance a new BEV and throw caution a bit to the wind.

I do understand that what I would pay is not necessarily representative of what others would pay. This is a separate question. I do think part of my answer on that is that there would be plenty of folks out there willing to pay, on average, maybe a bit more than desiv might estimate for good new batteries in used Leafs, and with a decent premium for a higher kWh battery, since that is the single key point (the range, the range, the range, the range) for so many of us.
 
jlsoaz said:
Here is what I would pay, given my present parameters and driving needs:

used Leaf with pre-Lizard original (used) battery: I would not pay more than $2-3k (especially in Arizona).
used Leaf with new Lizard 24 kWh battery: maybe about $6k.
used Leaf with new Lizard formulation 30 kWh battery (if Nissan would offer this retrofit, which they presently decline to do): $9k
used Leaf with new Lizard formulation 40 kWh battery (for the sake of fantasy): $15k-$20k.
competing new vehicle of any sort, whether leased or financed or paid for in cash: I am (perhaps) not inclined to do this, at this time.

notes:
[...]

Upon reconsideration, this is all arguably a bit too low. I was trying to take into account that the Leaf battery size is obsolete, or is about to be obsoleted, and that in my particular situation, it was always badly inadequate, to the point of causing me the significant extra expense of having to own another car.

However, I am arguably not crediting enough that, even with these negatives, it's a useful car to have and it is of high value to me to be able not to use gasoline. It's just that the car is not as good a fit for me as for some others, so what I would pay is much lower than what some others would pay.

One thing I would like to emphasize though is that as the number of kWh goes up, the car becomes *much* more useful to me. So, I would assign a high marginal utility to more kWh and would have been glad to back this up with many more dollars. I think I had said on one of the surveys that Nissan sent out that I would have paid a good amount more to lease a higher-kWh Leaf and I still think this way. In the example above, I indicated $3k more for 6 kWh more. If I could (just hypothetically) get over the hump and get 16 kWh more than is presently provided in a theoretical used Leaf with a new 24 kWh battery, and if the BMS and all associated equipment is revised accordingly, then I'd add a premium of about $9k-$14k. For one thing such a car would save me money against having to retain a second car.
 
Let's give Nissan some time to work this out before complaining. They aren't selling the cars with a 30kwh battery through to consumers yet.

It is unreasonable to expect them to have focused on replacement batteries at this point.

I expect something to happen. Those of us that purchased 2011 models expected that a larger replacement battery would be an option in the future. At least I did. It may not be in time for me at less than 55% usable battery capacity.

Many of you are commenting on a situation that is likely years away from being a necessity.

I think we should give Nissan some time to work through this and develop a plan. As time goes by they have an interest to be in the replacement battery business.
 
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