Nissan IDS concept shows Next Gen Leaf with 60kwh

Some more views of the IDS (see it drive itself...at ~3mph) starting at ~3:40) with CG's narration:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yx8XPU3driU

edatoakrun said:

Couldn't another configuration of the new cells allow a lower kWh (and dimensionally smaller-if required) replacement pack for 2011-15 LEAFs, If Nissan wants to produce one?

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Yes, but only if you can keep the system voltage the same, which means 96 cells in series. So, yes, 40 kWh works out if the 60-kWh version really has cells in triplets. (Nissan does NOT have the granularity available to Tesla, which uses the 18650-sized cells.)

That would make a good pair of options: 40 kWh base and 60 kWh extended.

The apparent lack of battery thermal management is a disappointment.

asimba2 said:

The apparent lack of battery thermal management is a disappointment.

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Not to me. At the end of the day, the best solution is a pack which does not have very much self-heating and which can handle the normal climate variations.

Note that the NMC structure is more rigid than some other types and they mentioned that they have a new heat-tolerant electrolyte. We have discussed these types of improvements over the years in other threads.

I used to feel that way but after watching the thread on how the 2015s with the Lizard pack are 'holding up,' I am very much unimpressed. My battery pack averages 94 degrees in summer months (as read from the car's three battery sensors) with some days at well over 110 degrees without ever having used DCQC. Those kinds of temperatures are not conducive to long battery life, and thus I won't be buying an EV without some kind of TMS.

I really like the IDS Concept design (though I think that full autonomous driving is more than we need). Here are some additional photos:






I am very encouraged by the aerodynamic aspects of the car, and I think the similarity in several areas, to the BMW i8 is a very good thing.

asimba2 said:

I used to feel that way but after watching the thread on how the 2015s with the Lizard pack are 'holding up,' I am very much unimpressed. My battery pack averages 94 degrees in summer months (as read from the car's three battery sensors) with some days at well over 110 degrees without ever having used DCQC. Those kinds of temperatures are not conducive to long battery life, and thus I won't be buying an EV without some kind of TMS.

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I agree - I just dont have sufficient confidence, to spend €40+K on EV, which wouldnt have battery thermal management system.

Absence of such system is also very likely going to limit very fast charging.

If I will have a choice between EV with BTMS + access to Tesla Supercharger network (or something comparable) and one without BTMS + no access to such network, choice will be really easy.... even if it cost a few thousands € more.

I like the IDS concept more and more every time I see it! It is an improvement in aerodynamics while offering a more aggressive/sporty appearance. I really hope the next Leaf keeps some of that, as well as that 60kWh battery

The autonomous driving bits are more of a distraction as far as I'm concerned. I understand Nissan wants to show them off, but it's a completely separate question from the direction they are going with their EVs. Part of me wishes they had created two concept cars, but c'est la vie!

I cringed when CG referred to the 'highly reliable Leaf batteries'.

Also what is with the love affair with suicide doors?

I assume that the suicide doors are simply for the concept / auto show. You certainly get a much better feel for the interior than with standard doors.

asimba2 said:

The apparent lack of battery thermal management is a disappointment.

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There's nothing inherently virtuous about active thermal management, and there are definite drawbacks. It depends on the needs of the cells. The new chemistry may or may not require it. The lower internal resistance is a good sign; at least in terms of heat from charging/discharging.

An ideal EV would not have, nor need, active thermal management. It consumes energy from the battery that is better-used for motion and complicates the life of the owner. One thing I'm quite happy with regarding LEAF is that I can leave it sit for weeks, and the pack still has nearly the same range remaining as when I left. Such cannot be said for a Tesla, for example.

Nubo said:

asimba2 said:

The apparent lack of battery thermal management is a disappointment.

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There's nothing inherently virtuous about active thermal management, and there are definite drawbacks. It depends on the needs of the cells. The new chemistry may or may not require it. The lower internal resistance is a good sign; at least in terms of heat from charging/discharging.

An ideal EV would not have, nor need, active thermal management. It consumes energy from the battery that is better-used for motion and complicates the life of the owner. One thing I'm quite happy with regarding LEAF is that I can leave it sit for weeks, and the pack still has nearly the same range remaining as when I left. Such cannot be said for a Tesla, for example.

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I agree with everything you said, however take a look at the 2015 lizard battery thread and you'll find at least four 2015 owners that are already down to 58 amp hours (~12% capacity loss), exactly the same loss as my 2013 that lives in a 100+ degree climate. This proves to me that the lizard battery is not the solution. I agree that the lower internal resistance stated in the 60kw battery article is a good sign, but it needs to be leaps-and-bounds better than the 2015 lizard battery, else it needs TMS.

Do they state anywhere that there won't be some kind of active management ?

There was an article about Bolt battery that talks about "air" cooled instead of liquid cooled. I wonder whether LG is using Freon ...

They could easily integrate active tms into the existing pack design.
The i3 uses a series of thin flat aluminum tubes for freon cooling. And a heating element all in th bottom of the pack. It may use some extra energy , but it doesn't make the pack any larger really and uses the existing ac compressor. Having had a leaf for 50,000 miles and seeing the temps on the pack in the summertime and losing 2 bars made me appreciate the need for a tms. So unless there is some new chemistry, I'd rather my gen 2 Leaf ( can't wait to get my gen 2 Leaf) have an active TMS.

On my i3 I can check the pack temp , see if at 84 degrees say on. A hot day , then check it afte driving(tms activates) and see the temp drop 10 degrees. Same with charging . Btw the i3 tms will not activate unless the car is powered on or charging so there are no vampire losses if parked. The pack just gets cold or hot if left parked.

asimba2 said:

The apparent lack of battery thermal management is a disappointment.

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Not for me, I like things to be simple with less maintenance. If the physics and technology support a path to batteries that don't need a thermal management system, it would be like driving a gas car without the need for a radiator or coolant pump. It should be researched and developed because it will benefit everyone in the long run. Even if requires just passive forced air cooling, that would be about as complicated as I would want the battery technology.

This is like the fanless compter - unheard of earlier, but the norm (in tablets & phones) now.

Question is - is Nissan's battery (LG's ?) ready for it ?

We won't know the answer for a few years - that is why most of us lease.

60 kwh in a package roughly 30-40% larger than the original is pretty impressive (guessing by pix on size differences. could be 50-60% larger)

but IDS is a SUV/CUV right? not so much LEAF II. with a 60 kwh option, an SUV/mini van is a no brainer I would think. the product shown looks more like what infiniti would be putting out more than Nissan but either way, when the tide rises...

Inside EVs claims the 60kWh battery "fits in exactly the same package as today’s 30 kWh Nissan LEAF battery pack"

http://insideevs.com/nissan-ids-concept-future-nissan-leaf-drag-report/

Imagine the public perception of EVs, and not to mention brand recognition and goodwill, if the new Nissan pack were backwards-compatible. If there's anything that could fix the raw deal some early-adopters got, it's this.

DaveinOlyWA said:

60 kwh in a package roughly 30-40% larger than the original is pretty impressive (guessing by pix on size differences. could be 50-60% larger)

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No - it is almost the same size as the current battery.

but IDS is a SUV/CUV right? not so much LEAF II. with a 60 kwh option, an SUV/mini van is a no brainer I would think. the product shown looks more like what infiniti would be putting out more than Nissan but either way, when the tide rises...

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No - it is just a hatch. Are you confusing this with Gripz ?