How To Tell If Battery Pack Has Been Replaced?

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Dyna

Member
Joined
Jul 12, 2015
Messages
10
Location
Montana
I'm looking at a 2011 Leaf with 60k+ miles on it. The battery shows a full 12 bars so it's either had a battery replacement or its been monkeyed with. (The seller is reputable but you never know...) The car was previously a CA lease car and the seller (a used car dealership) doesn't have any service records. Is there an easy way to identify if it has a new "lizard" pack installed? It is out of state so I can't poke around the car myself. Thanks!
 
Dyna said:
... Is there an easy way to identify if it has a new "lizard" pack installed? ....
No.

Best option is to get the VIN and see if a Nissan dealer will do a big favor for you and look up the VIN in their maintenance system.

There probably is a maintenance history that would show battery replacement.
 
LeafSpy will show 4 battery temperature sensors for 11/12, for newer, only 3 will show. The newer packs have
2 high voltage connections versus the 1 for 11/12, but I think the under panels would have to be pulled
to view. Any way if you can't have access then neither method will work.
 
Get the VIN and take it to the dealer with a printout of the ad for the car. Tell them you are thinking of buying the car and would bring it there for checkup/maintenance. They may not give you the history printout, but I bet they would tell you if the battery was swapped.
 
I have a new Lizard battery and it still shows four temperature sensors so I question that...

cliff said:
LeafSpy will show 4 battery temperature sensors for 11/12, for newer, only 3 will show. The newer packs have
2 high voltage connections versus the 1 for 11/12, but I think the under panels would have to be pulled
to view. Any way if you can't have access then neither method will work.
 
QC and L1/L2 charge counts are not reset during battery replacement and ampere-hours capacity takes time to stabilize after LBC reset so there is no information from the CAN bus that you can rely on to clearly show that battery was replaced. If you cannot get a Nissan dealer to look up history, you could do a range test or measure energy to charge on L2 from dead (main contactor open) to full to get a good indication of actual battery capacity. A true 12-bar battery should take at least 22 kWh to charge from dead to full on L2 and deliver actual driving range in accordance with Tony Williams' charts.

Gerry
 
You could also try looking up the VIN in the list of bar losers. (http://www.electricvehiclewiki.com/Real_World_Battery_Capacity_Loss) you might get lucky and find the original owner here on the forum...Yeah, OK, it's a bit of a long shot...

You might also try calling 1-877-NOGASEV. It might be easiest to fib to them and say you bought it. They may be able to tell you if it has a new battery or not.
 
cliff said:
LeafSpy will show 4 battery temperature sensors for 11/12, for newer, only 3 will show. The newer packs have
2 high voltage connections versus the 1 for 11/12, but I think the under panels would have to be pulled
to view. Any way if you can't have access then neither method will work.
My 2013 S was manufactured in August 2013 and has only 3 sensors showing in LeafSpy, and I have heard good things happened to battery tech as 2013 production ramped up in the USA, so I'm hoping that my battery is from after some sort of generational change (for the better). It sounds like there have been 3 generations of battery, and I'd like to collect the definitive "how to tell what battery you have" in one place.

Seems like the Generations of battery ID'd so far are (where batteries from any "whole" generation are interchangeable):
Gen 1.0 25kWh Japan 2011/2012/Early 2013: 4 temp sensors in Leaf Spy
Gen 1.5 25kwh USA Fall 2013 "Early Lizard?"...3 temp sensors in Leaf Spy (?)
Gen 2.0 30kWh 2016

I've searched and searched this forum for "how tell lizard" and I can't find any reference to
- Why it is called Lizard
- If there are any visual differences you can see by peeking under your car (can you see the mounting bracket differences?)
- If there is agreement on the meaning of 3 temp sensors (Leaf Spy says I have sensors 1, 2, and 4)
- When the VIN number or production-month breaks are for the USA transition in battery types (I'm 414434 / August)
 
GerryAZ said:
QC and L1/L2 charge counts are not reset during battery replacement and ampere-hours capacity takes time to stabilize after LBC reset so there is no information from the CAN bus that you can rely on to clearly show that battery was replaced.

What about Gids on a full charge?
 
Another thing you can try... Check to see if you have a previous owners name listed in carwings and where the car called home. I did this with one of my Leafs and was ultimately able to contact the previous leaser of the vehicle and with his help got all of the service records. Also, if you need a list of what parts it takes the dealer to put a lizard into a 2011, pm me for the list. It takes a support kit and that could help be an identifier if you get your hands on more info about previous service to your car. Or if you can find the Nissan dealer that the car was previously serviced, they have more detailed service records on file, than any other Nissan dealer.
 
Arlington said:
... and I have heard good things happened to battery tech as 2013 production ramped up in the USA, so I'm hoping that my battery is from after some sort of generational change (for the better). ...
The tooth fairy was a wonderful thing to believe in for a while too.

I hope you are right, but there has not been much hard data to back up that claim.

Nissan said the heat resistant battery arrived with USA model year 2015.
They would not even sell replacements till it was available.
Why does everyone want to not believe them and start assuming they started using it a year and a half earlier.

Data :?: :eek:
 
If memory serves…

2011MY 24kWh battery.
Later 2011MY 24kWh battery with heater (part of the cold package).
2013MY 24kWh battery with minor chemical composition change.
2015MY 24kWh battery with a more heat resistant chemistry. Dubbed the lizard battery for that reason.

There are 4 temperature sensors on the batteries for MY2011& 2012. Three temperature sensors starting with MY2013.

Arlington said:
My 2013 S was manufactured in August 2013 and has only 3 sensors showing in LeafSpy, and I have heard good things happened to battery tech as 2013 production ramped up in the USA, so I'm hoping that my battery is from after some sort of generational change (for the better). It sounds like there have been 3 generations of battery, and I'd like to collect the definitive "how to tell what battery you have" in one place.

Seems like the Generations of battery ID'd so far are (where batteries from any "whole" generation are interchangeable):
Gen 1.0 25kWh Japan 2011/2012/Early 2013: 4 temp sensors in Leaf Spy
Gen 1.5 25kwh USA Fall 2013 "Early Lizard?"...3 temp sensors in Leaf Spy (?)
Gen 2.0 30kWh 2016

I've searched and searched this forum for "how tell lizard" and I can't find any reference to
- Why it is called Lizard
- If there are any visual differences you can see by peeking under your car (can you see the mounting bracket differences?)
- If there is agreement on the meaning of 3 temp sensors (Leaf Spy says I have sensors 1, 2, and 4)
- When the VIN number or production-month breaks are for the USA transition in battery types (I'm 414434 / August)
 
CarFax??

I believe most if not all Nissan dealers report to Carfax. If so then I would suspect that a Carfax report should show battery replacement. It just might not be too clear if it's the 12v or HV battery.

One of the things I like that Lexus has is an owners site, drivers.lexus.com. You register, input any vin and you can view details of every service visit and resolution. It's a great source when buying a pre-owned Lexus.
 
TimLee said:
Arlington said:
... and I have heard good things happened to battery tech as 2013 production ramped up in the USA, so I'm hoping that my battery is from after some sort of generational change (for the better). ...
The tooth fairy was a wonderful thing to believe in for a while too.

I hope you are right, but there has not been much hard data to back up that claim.

Nissan said the heat resistant battery arrived with USA model year 2015.
They would not even sell replacements till it was available.
Why does everyone want to not believe them and start assuming they started using it a year and a half earlier.
I'm going to keep digging, not just waiving off well-documented changes as tooth fairy.
This is the first clue: in 2013, the casing on battery modules went from 2011/2012 "solid box":
P1140452.JPG

to a new casing with a split all the way around:
Nissan-leaf-battery-cell-UK-750x489.jpg

(see this 2014 article on the battery replacement program that shows a split-casing module, and this pair of "2013" battery pack teardown articles from April and September 2015)

Again, we're looking for generational changes of the sort that go with "continuous improvement" that Japan is famous for, especially when confronted with rapidly-emerging tech (like batteries) and vociferous feedback (heater-off switch)

Some 1.x to 1.x++ changes will be small (like number of sensors and mounting bracket positions) and some will be large (like lizard's leap in heat-resistance) and some will be true generational changes (I'd call 30kWh the first "2.0" )

A small "continuous improvement" change in battery CONSTRUCTION in 2013 is a now a proven fact, and that 2013's changes might have been a small continuous improvement in battery DURABILITY isn't ruled out by the fact that there is said to have been a big change in chemistry for 2015 (big enough to hold up production) and a discontinuous "2.0" kind of change in internal wiring to support 30kWh.

I think a change in battery modules in 2013 (small enough to *not* hold up production), is particularly of the kind that you might introduce in the course of setting up the Smyrna TN battery production assembly line and organizing a new supply chain.

So far, my guess is that the switch from a solid to a split module casing in 2013 was a "winner" improvement, which is why it is part of acknowledged 2014/2015 "Lizard" production of "Gen 1.5" replacements for failed Gen 1.0/1.1 batteries and is why 2013 owners seem happier with battery durability. Maybe they also knew that a split casing would move heat around differently and so changed the sensor setup.
91040 said:
If memory serves…
2011MY 24kWh battery.
Later 2011MY 24kWh battery with heater (part of the cold package).
2013MY 24kWh battery with minor chemical composition change.
2015MY 24kWh battery with a more heat resistant chemistry. Dubbed the lizard battery for that reason.

There are 4 temperature sensors on the batteries for MY2011& 2012. Three temperature sensors starting with MY2013.
In the spirit of continuous improvement, I'm re-working my generations list as follows:
Gen YearMY What's New
1.0 2011MY (Launch 25kWh battery)
1.1 2011MY battery with heater (part of the cold package).
1.3 2013MY USA-assembled battery changes*
1.5 2015MY battery with a more heat resistant chemistry. Dubbed the lizard battery for that reason.
1.x (possible further improvements in Lizard / 2016 S / Future Gen 1.x replacement supplies)

2.0 2016MY 30kWh Batteries

* Known generational changes during switch to Smyrna battery production in Spring 2013 that would appear in 2013MY production by July or August:
1) Known reduction in number of temp sensors from "1,2,3,4" to "1,2,4" (perhaps the 2013's only "ask" for 3, even if the pack has 4)
2) 2nd HV Connection on the front of the pack that goes to the cabin heater
3) Exterior casing changes: fewer simpler bolts & seal change (see this teardown)
4) Change in battery module casing & venting (allowing greater airflow?) (see this teardown)

So I look at the list, above, of known changes for USA 2013MY and confidently declare gen 1.3 for MY13. (there may never be a 1.2 or 1.4 "released" so let's go with 1.3 = '13 cause it is an easy mnemonic

Is Gen 1.3 really "better" or "more durable"? That seems like a better hypothesis than to just assume they were cost cutting or accommodating equal-or-worse US domestic suppliers in their changes.

Sure, some of those 2013 changes may be purely "cosmetic" and driven by what kind of deal Nissan could cut with USA parts suppliers (maybe USA bolts are expensive and seals are cheap), but all speak to a Nissan engineer, somewhere, having been given a list of redesign items. Equal-or-better seems like the more "normal" set of design and sourcing changes you'd make.

I find the case that 2013 saw better venting & convective temperature management within/between the battery modules to be very compelling because we see a change (to a split case) and have a good hypothesis as to why it was made (to allow heat to move/moderate better). It may be that 2013 didn't see a chemistry change at all, but rather just this change to better manage heat making it *look* like the chemistry changed.

Frankly, Given all the known/visible changes for 2013 (see #1, 2, 3, 4, above) it seems at least a 50% chance that they tweaked the actual chemistry, or 50% that the left chemistry unchanged in 2013 but knew that a new 4-cell casing could better dissipate heat.
 
Evoforce said:
My 2011 Leaf with lizard battery shows four temperature bars.

If you have a 2011, with a replacement battery, could you check the serial number of the battery with LeafSpy?

In LeafSpy, Settings, Enable the Service Screen.
That gives you a fifth screen, temporarily.
Read ECU versions shows the Battery Serial Number near the bottom.
Screenshot that. It isn't logged.
After you do that, the SOH screen 1 will toggle between VIN and Battery Serial Number.
My 2013, built 4/17/2013, has Battery Serial Number 230SM1134F000591

This might be a way of spotting the lizard battery. It might be a way to tell that a battery had been replaced.
 
I wonder if my used Nissan leaf 2013 has had the battery changed.
I now have 98670 miles on it and its still at 10 bars.
Leaf spy says 16.3 kwh when fully charged.
I average 4.3 miles per kwh.
 
In the spirit of continuous improvement, I'm re-working my generations list as follows:
Gen YearMY What's New
1.0 2011MY (Launch 25kWh battery)
1.1 2011MY battery with heater (part of the cold package).
1.3 2013MY USA-assembled battery changes*
1.5 2015MY battery with a more heat resistant chemistry. Dubbed the lizard battery for that reason.
1.x (possible further improvements in Lizard / 2016 S / Future Gen 1.x replacement supplies)

2.0 2016MY 30kWh Batteries

* Known generational changes during switch to Smyrna battery production in Spring 2013 that would appear in 2013MY production by July or August:
1) Known reduction in number of temp sensors from "1,2,3,4" to "1,2,4" (perhaps the 2013's only "ask" for 3, even if the pack has 4)
2) 2nd HV Connection on the front of the pack that goes to the cabin heater
3) Exterior casing changes: fewer simpler bolts & seal change (see this teardown)
4) Change in battery module casing & venting (allowing greater airflow?) (see this teardown)

So I look at the list, above, of known changes for USA 2013MY and confidently declare gen 1.3 for MY13. (there may never be a 1.2 or 1.4 "released" so let's go with 1.3 = '13 cause it is an easy mnemonic

I haven't been following this thread, but I have been following the 'generational' changes in the batteries. I was the first person at this site to notice that there was a change in battery chemistry in April (not January) of 2013. Since AFAIK the battery case was changed with the beginning of production in Smyrna in January of 2013, it appears almost certain that the change that mattered was to the composition of the electrolyte/cathode/anode inside the case, beginning in April of 2013, and had little or nothing to do with the case design. This conclusion has held up very well over the last several years, with 2013 cars built before April showing the same pattern of degradation as the 2011-2012 Leafs, even with the new case, and cars built from April on proving much more resistant to time-related degradation. Resistance to heat related degradation is less pronounced, but still noticeable - much like the "Lizard" pack. I've been calling the first version of the pack the "Canary Pack" because of its vulnerability, and have recently named the intermediate, pre-Lizard pack the "Wolf Pack" because it's much tougher, but still doesn't withstand sustained heat very well. I did that because people were starting to refer to 4/2013-2014 packs as "Lizard" packs, and there is no evidence that this is actually the case, even though they seem almost as good as the 2015 packs.
 
LeftieBiker said:
In the spirit of continuous improvement, I'm re-working my generations list as follows:
Gen YearMY What's New
1.0 2011MY (Launch 25kWh battery)
1.1 2011MY battery with heater (part of the cold package).
1.3 2013MY USA-assembled battery changes*
1.5 2015MY battery with a more heat resistant chemistry. Dubbed the lizard battery for that reason.
1.x (possible further improvements in Lizard / 2016 S / Future Gen 1.x replacement supplies)

2.0 2016MY 30kWh Batteries

* Known generational changes during switch to Smyrna battery production in Spring 2013 that would appear in 2013MY production by July or August:
1) Known reduction in number of temp sensors from "1,2,3,4" to "1,2,4" (perhaps the 2013's only "ask" for 3, even if the pack has 4)
2) 2nd HV Connection on the front of the pack that goes to the cabin heater
3) Exterior casing changes: fewer simpler bolts & seal change (see this teardown)
4) Change in battery module casing & venting (allowing greater airflow?) (see this teardown)

So I look at the list, above, of known changes for USA 2013MY and confidently declare gen 1.3 for MY13. (there may never be a 1.2 or 1.4 "released" so let's go with 1.3 = '13 cause it is an easy mnemonic

I haven't been following this thread, but I have been following the 'generational' changes in the batteries. I was the first person at this site to notice that there was a change in battery chemistry in April (not January) of 2013. Since AFAIK the battery case was changed with the beginning of production in Smyrna in January of 2013, it appears almost certain that the change that mattered was to the composition of the electrolyte/cathode/anode inside the case, beginning in April of 2013, and had little or nothing to do with the case design. This conclusion has held up very well over the last several years, with 2013 cars built before April showing the same pattern of degradation as the 2011-2012 Leafs, even with the new case, and cars built from April on proving much more resistant to time-related degradation. Resistance to heat related degradation is less pronounced, but still noticeable - much like the "Lizard" pack. I've been calling the first version of the pack the "Canary Pack" because of its vulnerability, and have recently named the intermediate, pre-Lizard pack the "Wolf Pack" because it's much tougher, but still doesn't withstand sustained heat very well. I did that because people were starting to refer to 4/2013-2014 packs as "Lizard" packs, and there is no evidence that this is actually the case, even though they seem almost as good as the 2015 packs.

Do data exist that indicate a significance difference between the 2013 (Wolf Pack) and the 2015 (Lizard) battery degradation? If so, where're
the data to corroborate that?
 
Do data exist that indicate a significance difference between the 2013 (Wolf Pack) and the 2015 (Lizard) battery degradation? If so, where're
the data to corroborate that?

Nothing hard, but if you look in the topics about degradation, I believe that you'll find that the Wolf packs do a bit worse in climates like Phoenix than does the Lizard pack. The Wolf pack, as I recall, is more likely to lose multiple bars in really hot areas than is the Lizard pack.
 
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