Early Adopter Mistake - Running on Empty

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Valdemar said:
Thanks for the update. Would you say that the favorable decision from arbitration was mostly due to you not receiving and signing the capacity loss disclosure form at the time of purchase?

From what I read in the decision, I'm not sure what I can and cannot share publicly. So I don't know if I can go into detail yet. I'm waiting on getting more information about what can be shared beyond what I've already posted.
 
I received a response from the BBB which states, "There is nothing confidential about your case or the decision." If you have any questions don't hesitate to ask, since I am happy to share or help in anyway.
 
Leafer77 said:
I received a response from the BBB which states, "There is nothing confidential about your case or the decision." If you have any questions don't hesitate to ask, since I am happy to share or help in anyway.
Good news - are you able to summarize your BBB arbitration process from start to finish?

I suspect there will a significant number of people who will lose their 4th capacity bar just outside of warranty and a BBB arbitration may be their only hope at getting a replacement battery pack.
 
drees said:
Leafer77 said:
I received a response from the BBB which states, "There is nothing confidential about your case or the decision." If you have any questions don't hesitate to ask, since I am happy to share or help in anyway.
Good news - are you able to summarize your BBB arbitration process from start to finish?

I suspect there will a significant number of people who will lose their 4th capacity bar just outside of warranty and a BBB arbitration may be their only hope at getting a replacement battery pack.

Based on what I went through, here's what worked for me:

1. Get a service record for all four or more battery tests.
2. If you've taken your car into the dealer previously for battery degradation concerns, then get copies of those.

*** This is important because it shows to the Arbitrator that you gave Nissan a chance to acknowledge the issue and they refused to repair the problem ***

3. Go to the dealer again and ask that them to inspect the battery, due to severe battery degradation.
4. Ask that it be replaced under the 8 year 100k warranty, since the degradation amounts to a defect in the battery.

*** Bring data on each capacity bar disappearing (Mileage/Date) for each occurrence.***

5. Ask the dealer to open a Case with Nissan North America about the severe battery degradation. If they refuse, then call Nissan North America and open a case yourself.
6. If Nissan North America rejects your claim, then open a case with the BBB Auto Line.

*** In your BBB Auto Line Case: Provide Warranty Manual information on 8 year/100k mile Battery Warranty information, Nissan Marketing Material about the battery lasting 8 - 10 years, along with all the documentation from steps 1 and 4. If possible, request a 3rd party technical assessment of the vehicle (I had to wait until the appeal portion of the process to do this). ***

7. If you lose your case with the BBB, you can appeal it. (I had to do this in order to get all my evidence considered and a technical assessment.)
8. If they accept your appeal, then a formal meeting with the Arbitrator should be called at this stage, and you'll probably need witnesses and all your documentation again. A technical assessment may occur at the trial or be scheduled later on.

I went into these meetings without a bunch of technical information, because I wanted them to know that I relied on what I was told by Nissan and that the car's battery was not performing per their documentation or marketing. I also let them know how this problem impacted me personally and my family, due to the inability to complete certain commutes (pick up kids from sport, school activities, etc.), which I was initially able to. I didn't argue over the technical details or get upset with the Nissan counsel. Lastly, I had two witnesses, which you might want to have to support your case.

This process took nine months to complete and occurred here in San Diego. I'm not sure what the experience might be like at other locations.

I cannot tell you how much relief this has given me and my family. I really hope that this information helps someone else out. I'd be curious to hear about other experiences following these steps. Feel free to reply and share.
 
Anyonev knows if there is a list of references somewhere to Nissan estimates of 80% capacity after 5 years and 30% after 10? I know of the sentence in the gradual capacity loss disclosure I signed at purchase and the Andy Palmer video, but are there any others that can substantiate a claim with BBB?
 
How about the two witnesses, if they are forum members we would all appreciate a recap from your point of view including what they asked you as a witness and how you responded.

And thanks to leafer77 and his two witnesses for showing us the way!

Congrats on the new battery pack, sounds like the car will hold for another 80,000+ miles now.
 
I was a witness in this case over the phone, they asked me a single question which was if I signed the gradual capacity loss disclosure form, which I confirmed. That was it.
 
Leafer77 said:
Based on what I went through, here's what worked for me
This is gold!

May I suggest that you edit your original post in this thread and copy/paste this information into it for easy reference?
 
Valdemar said:
Anyonev knows if there is a list of references somewhere to Nissan estimates of 80% capacity after 5 years and 30% after 10? I know of the sentence in the gradual capacity loss disclosure I signed at purchase and the Andy Palmer video, but are there any others that can substantiate a claim with BBB?
The 5-year estimate is in the Owner's Manual:
2011 LEAF Owner's Manual said:
NISSAN estimates that battery capacity will be approximately 80% of original capacity after five years, although this is only an estimate, and this percentage may vary (and could be significantly lower) depending on individual vehicle and Li-ion battery usage.
There was also an official Nissan marketing video which claimed that the battery pack is "supposed to last AT LEAST 10 years or 100,000 miles." Also, "could be MUCH longer...". Nissan has since pulled the video, but I have transcribed it here:
RegGuheert said:
Transcription of this video in case it decides to disappear at some point in the future:

URL: http://http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-DEuGU0mGWc
Title: Nissan LEAF Tour Q&A: Battery Replacement
Uploaded by: nissanusa
Upload date: January 27, 2012
Summary paragraph:
Nissan LEAF Tour Q&A: Battery Replacement YouTube Video uploaded by nissanusa on January 27 said:
Nissan LEAF Tour Expert Kate answers a question from our Facebook Page about when the Nissan LEAFs battery will need to be replaced. For more answers to Nissan LEAF questions, visit http://www.facebook.com/NissanLEAF
Video transcription:
Nissan LEAF Tour Q&A: Battery Replacement YouTube Video uploaded by nissanusa on January 27 said:
(Fade from black to blue background showing the following words:)
"Nissan LEAF
drive electric tour"
(Words fade out and the following words fade in:)
"When will the LEAF
battery need to be replaced?
- Juan E."
(Switch to a scene of a blonde lady with a Nissan LEAF baseball cap standing outside with a blue Nissan LEAF seen out-of-focus in the background. She is speaking and says the following:)
"The battery pack will NOT have to be replaced after a couple years. In fact, the battery pack's supposed to last AT LEAST 10 years or 100,000 miles. Could be MUCH longer depending on how much you drive."
(Switch back to blue background showing the following words:)
"Join the conversation at
Facebook.com/NissanLEAF"
(Fade to black)
Finally, there is the infamous "Death Valley" quote from former VP Mark Perry:
RegGuheert said:
EdmondLeaf said:
Stoaty said:
The "80% capacity left in 5 years"
Ofical Nissan position - should be 70 - 80% left after 10 years 1:04
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DShtvd5jJHQ
Thanks for the link!

Here is another interesting quote from Mark Perry in that video:

3:37
Heat is definitely not a friend of batteries, but I'm talking about severe 130, 140 degrees Fahrenheit kind of heat. So if you're in that situation, again, this is not a situ..., this is not a "you're just parked in the parking lot and it's 110 degrees, you need to worry about it." This is you're parked in, pick, Death Valley, and it's 130 degrees outside. It's August, and you're gonna leave the car there for a week. That's bad. Don't do that. But just normal conditions, you don't have to worry about it. Uh, but...again, long-term storage, don't park you Nissan LEAF, or any electric vehicle, where it's gonna be more than 120, 130 degrees.
I have to say that this whole idea of 110F:GOOD 120F:BAD really does not, in any way, reflect the reality of what goes on in a Li-ion battery. Yes, there may be a thermal runaway condition that could happen at som high temperature, but to act as if that is the only issue that a customer needs to worry about is not at all sincere on Nissan's part, given that they do not warranty capacity.
Perry's quotes tell me that if you keep your LEAF at or below 110 degrees you will still have at least 70% capacity remaining after 10 years.
 
drees said:
Leafer77 said:
Based on what I went through, here's what worked for me
This is gold!

May I suggest that you edit your original post in this thread and copy/paste this information into it for easy reference?

That's a good suggestion. It can be hard to find information easily. I'll update the post now.
 
Well folks, I suspect that Leafer77 was the first and the last person who was able to get a new pack through BBB Auto line. He just got lucky as it seems they missed the fact there was an existing lawsuit. My claim was declined, this is their response:

After careful review of the claim you submitted on [date], it has been determined that your claim is ineligible. The claim falls outside of the BBB Auto Line Jurisdiction because it involves a vehicle that is the subject of a lawsuit brought against the manufacturer or its authorized dealer. Please refer to Pages 7-8 of the booklet "How BBB Auto Line Works" under section 2 Jurisdiction of BBB Auto Line.

Here is the paragraph they are referring to:

D. Specific Disputes That Will Not Be Arbitrated
...
* Claims involving a vehicle that is the subject of a lawsuit brought against the manufacturer or its authorized dealer

Am I SOL here? Seems so.
 
Remember that my initial claim was rejected and I had to Appeal. Be sure to state that your problem is not covered by the battery degradation that the Class Action Lawsuit covered.

Below is my Comment regarding the decision, which I included in my Appeal:

Thank you for attempting to assist me with case NIS1512552.

Below are my comments for the record:

• My complaint about the Lithium-Ion Battery Capacity defect, should fall under the 8 years/100,000 mile warranty, due to “…defects in materials or workmanship…”.
• The vehicle is unusable to the consumer who expects more than 45 miles of highway driving, due to the lack of driving range, after three to four years or after 60,000 miles (in good weather and normal driving conditions).
• There is no disclosure to consumers about the estimated amount of range lost over the course of normal use and time.
• Comparable Electric Vehicle’s on the market do not exhibit excessive loss in their Lithium-Ion Battery Capacity.
• Accelerated Lithium-Ion Battery Capacity loss occurs after the Third Capacity Bar or third year of ownership, compared to prior Lithium-Ion Battery Capacity Bar or prior years of ownership: First Capacity Bar 21,085, Second Capacity Bar 36,360, Third Capacity Bar 52,109, and Fourth Capacity Bar 61,150.
• Stress caused by the lack of driving range, also known as “range anxiety” by the Nissan Leaf EV community, has caused me health and family issues.

I appreciate your attention to my concerns.
 
Good to hear op got his battery.

You asked how you got into this situation because you did your home work. Now that you are through and relieved, I feel okay offering how it happend: I think when you bought the car you listened to Nissan marketing and the part of you that really, really wanted an electric car, and ignored the part of you that surely was saying something seems off here.

The original claims by Nissan on battery life never made sense then nor do they now.
Batteries have limited lifespans. As cylce count goes on, they lose capacity, it is just a simple fact. Also, original reviews of this car did state miles and nobody should have thought from day one they would be getting the 100 miles that Nissan was claiming in its marketing material.

When I got my 2012 leaf I had heard of some pack issues, but it was a lease and I was totally protected. Committing with a purchase to very new tech is always risky.

So in summary:
1) car companies all paint rosy pictures; ignore that and go with objective reviewers of the product
2) only ever be a beta tester for new tech if you can easily afford to cover losses if the new tech turns out to be a dud

I never understood why people were buying these things early on. Even best case the batteries would be worthless after 5-10 years, and there was no way to know how much it would cost to replace. Too many unknowns with no upside to purchasing it. With a lease Nissan got hosed on the residual, not the guy who finances.
 
EatsShootsandLeafs said:
I never understood why people were buying these things early on. Even best case the batteries would be worthless after 5-10 years, and there was no way to know how much it would cost to replace. Too many unknowns with no upside to purchasing it. With a lease Nissan got hosed on the residual, not the guy who finances.

I'm not going to pretend to speak for everyone, but I will offer one possibility - history. From about 2000 to 2010, there were zero options to buy an EV built by an OEM. If you wanted an EV, you basically had to build it yourself. Prior to 2000, the short wave of EVs were mostly lease-only. At the end of the lease, the cars were taken back (no option to buy) and crushed, much to their owners' dismay. I think in 2010-2012, there was still a lot of wariness that this could happen again, causing many people to buy the car outright. It was anything but given that in 2015, Nissan would still be pushing the envelope with the Leaf and that in 2016, GM would be selling an EV with 200 mile range.

Also, it's worth pointing out that many of those earlier EVs that survived still have a usable original battery. I almost purchased a 2000 Ford Ranger EV myself, with no more than 20% capacity loss. Granted, this was with a NiMH battery and not Lithium, so a completely different beast (NiMH has lower capacity, but better longevity compared to Lithium-anything). But for someone who doesn't understand the differences, I could see why they might expect the battery to last the life of the car. Especially because that's what Nissan was saying.
 
GetOffYourGas said:
I'm not going to pretend to speak for everyone, but I will offer one possibility - history. From about 2000 to 2010, there were zero options to buy an EV built by an OEM. If you wanted an EV, you basically had to build it yourself. Prior to 2000, the short wave of EVs were mostly lease-only. At the end of the lease, the cars were taken back (no option to buy) and crushed, much to their owners' dismay. I think in 2010-2012, there was still a lot of wariness that this could happen again, causing many people to buy the car outright.
It's true, I understand their concern, but if anything that encourages one even further away from purchasing. A terrible financial mistake would be owning a highly limited run EV, with a lot of strange and new tech, which is no longer actively supported by the manufacturer.

Perhaps if nothing else I suspect we can all agree that early adopters often pay a surcharge, regardless of what they want. Prices come down on new tech so quickly that just waiting a little while pays huge dividends. We've certainly seen that with the Leaf (and lease rates not much over $200/month). And according to cars.com I can buy an almost brand new Leaf now with almost no miles for about $15k.
 
GetOffYourGas said:
EatsShootsandLeafs said:
I never understood why people were buying these things early on. Even best case the batteries would be worthless after 5-10 years, and there was no way to know how much it would cost to replace. Too many unknowns with no upside to purchasing it. With a lease Nissan got hosed on the residual, not the guy who finances.

I'm not going to pretend to speak for everyone, but I will offer one possibility - history. From about 2000 to 2010, there were zero options to buy an EV built by an OEM. If you wanted an EV, you basically had to build it yourself. Prior to 2000, the short wave of EVs were mostly lease-only. At the end of the lease, the cars were taken back (no option to buy) and crushed, much to their owners' dismay. I think in 2010-2012, there was still a lot of wariness that this could happen again, causing many people to buy the car outright. It was anything but given that in 2015, Nissan would still be pushing the envelope with the Leaf and that in 2016, GM would be selling an EV with 200 mile range.

Also, it's worth pointing out that many of those earlier EVs that survived still have a usable original battery. I almost purchased a 2000 Ford Ranger EV myself, with no more than 20% capacity loss. Granted, this was with a NiMH battery and not Lithium, so a completely different beast (NiMH has lower capacity, but better longevity compared to Lithium-anything). But for someone who doesn't understand the differences, I could see why they might expect the battery to last the life of the car. Especially because that's what Nissan was saying.

Before I purchased my 2011 Nissan Leaf. I did research about previous electric cars, went to the events to drive the vehicle, read the literature from Nissan about the cars expected performance, etc. I processed all that information and hypothesized, what is the possible worst case scenario to expect. The manufacturer sticker promised close to 100 miles range. I doubted this estimate myself, and predicted closer to 70 - 75, based on several sources.

My daily commute is 60 miles round trip, and I have the option of charging at work. I figured after 3-5 years, I would likely have to charge at work, in order to make it comfortably back home. Instead I had to start charging at work towards the end of my first year, and about every 6 months after the first year things became progressively worse, since my battery degradation was accelerating and impacting my range. It got to the point where charging to full at work barely was getting me home. In the end, my range was reduced to 40 miles.

Yes, in retrospect my conservative estimate was incorrect. Not because of poor planning or analysis of the information that I had at the time, but because of a defect in the battery I was sold by Nissan. This likely includes several other 2011 batteries.
 
GetOffYourGas summed up my thinking almost perfectly when I was one of the first to reserve a Leaf. The memories of EV-1 crushing were still quite fresh on my mind, and magnified by the release of Who Killed the Electric Car? I was very eager to get the first economical production EV to market, and to actually own it.

Also, with respect to leasing vs. buying, the $199/month deals we see now were not around in 2011, so purchasing was the more economical choice, setting aside the at-the-time-unquantifiable risk that it entailed. And prices didn't come down that fast, as it turned out - they actually went up with the 2012 model, and benefits like free charging stations started to get phased out, and the California rebate went from $5000 to $2500.

And as to that risk, I fully understood at the time that batteries degrade and knew what I was possibly getting myself into, but Nissan made the mistake of making promises, and they got burned for it. I didn't expect to get a free replacement battery, and I'm certainly happy that I will (getting installed right now actually), but I and many others are justifiably upset about how this class action lawsuit and capacity warranty were implemented. We all have the same defective batteries, but only those of us who drove the right amount of miles or parked in hot enough places will see any benefit from it.

EatsShootsandLeafs said:
It's true, I understand their concern, but if anything that encourages one even further away from purchasing. A terrible financial mistake would be owning a highly limited run EV, with a lot of strange and new tech, which is no longer actively supported by the manufacturer.
Quite to the contrary, during the aforementioned EV drought from 2000-2010, the few remaining Rav4-EVs left in private hands were known to sell for as high as $70,000. So while there was a very real possibility that the Leaf would be but the first in a flood of EVs and I'd pay an "early adopter penalty", there was also a chance that the EV would get "killed" again and I'd have a rare "collector's item" that nobody could take away.
 
As I sat down at the dealership in Dec 2011, I was on the fence about buying or leasing. Then reality hit and I realized I didn't want to be on the hook for any gotcha's in V1.0 of an essentially new technology. The EV1 debacle was the result of a manufacturer who felt forced by government to begrudgingly produce a vehicle. It was an adversarial relationship and once the mandate evaporated so did the cars. This time is different in that at least some manufacturers are willingly marketing EVs.

Not this guy though....
http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/cars/2014/05/22/sergio-marchionne-fiat-chrysler-electric/9443715/
 
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