cwerdna
Well-known member
See http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tiretech/techpage.jsp?techid=177. There's more than just the change in rolling resistance.bowthom said:
The New Tire Replacement Post
- Thread starter Wennfred
- Start date
Help Support My Nissan Leaf Forum:
64chevy
Member
So far, the Continental PureContact tires have been pretty great. They are marginally less quiet on some surfaces (but not all) than the pretty worn (5/32") OEMs. The grip is spectacular in the dry and in the rain, so far. No tests in the snow, yet. Also, I'm pretty much the opposite of an aggressive driver, so take that with a grain of salt. It's very hard to say if the range has dropped due to the cold weather (20F this AM) which also results in quite a bit more use of the environmental controls, seat and steering wheel heaters, etc. I should know if the efficiency is worse than the OEMs in about 6 months, maybe a year.
64chevy said:
The easiest and possibly best overall way to compare efficiencies is to wait for a mild or warm day that you have "mapped" for efficiency with your Summer/old tires, then do the same with the Winter/new tires.
I'm looking at getting new tires for the LEAF this week. It is still running 2 of the OEM Ecopia's that are nearly bald. The other 2 are GT Radial tires that came with the car when I got it (used).
I'm think of putting on a set of the Michelin Premier A/S however I'm hesitant over the loss of range that seems to be effected by these tires. Tire Rack list them when I select LRR tires but I have not seen any specs to confirm this. Consumer Reports mentions them as having "good" LRR attributes, but once again no specs. I have seen several forum post (1 here, Prius, Scion, etc.) that show the opposite actually, the tires are not very efficient compared to OEM LRR tires.
So is there only one LEAF out there running these tires? Anyone else have experience?
I was hoping for a little more grip over the tires currently fitted. Is it simply folly to expect more traction and maintain LRR? Would running the Michelin's at 44 PSI like the Ecopia's help substantially?
The other reason for selecting these tires is they are in stock while the Ecopia's are special order at Discount Tire (as well as the Continental Pure Contacts). Thanks!
I'm think of putting on a set of the Michelin Premier A/S however I'm hesitant over the loss of range that seems to be effected by these tires. Tire Rack list them when I select LRR tires but I have not seen any specs to confirm this. Consumer Reports mentions them as having "good" LRR attributes, but once again no specs. I have seen several forum post (1 here, Prius, Scion, etc.) that show the opposite actually, the tires are not very efficient compared to OEM LRR tires.
So is there only one LEAF out there running these tires? Anyone else have experience?
I was hoping for a little more grip over the tires currently fitted. Is it simply folly to expect more traction and maintain LRR? Would running the Michelin's at 44 PSI like the Ecopia's help substantially?
The other reason for selecting these tires is they are in stock while the Ecopia's are special order at Discount Tire (as well as the Continental Pure Contacts). Thanks!
Roostre
Active member
My research on the Michelin Premiere A/S has been similar to yours, but it *seems* that those folks that bothered to continue posting results after the tires broke in saw only a very small efficiency hit. A few even reported results equal to the stock Ecopias.
I've run them on our previous cars (2) and found them to be a superior tire for handling and traction. I did not measure efficiency accurately enough to know the impact, but they did seem to coast better than the previous set. Nothing concrete, however.
I've run them on our previous cars (2) and found them to be a superior tire for handling and traction. I did not measure efficiency accurately enough to know the impact, but they did seem to coast better than the previous set. Nothing concrete, however.
Moof
Well-known member
Roostre said:
I've had mine for a little over a year and I am quite happy with them. I had a big hit when I got them, but it was just as the cold/wet weather was hitting the area, so it was hard to tell whether it was more the tires or the weather. By this last summer I was back to hitting 4.5-5.0 mi/kWh on my daily commute (I actually never got higher than 4.8 with the Ecopias). I didn't take detail measurements before or after, but on the whole I cannot tell a difference for warm weather, and never went through a winter with the Ecopias so I have no data there. My 40F dry weather efficiency is down around 3.8 mi/kWh without any heating, dropping to 3-3.4 with wet roads and defroster usage.
On slightly wet roads the Ecopias skittered and under steered around corners, which I hated, while the Premier's stick with confidence. My guess is that on the whole their extra wet weather stickiness makes for a little worse rolling resistance, but it is only a guess.
Well that's good to know that some LEAF drivers have driven them with good efficiency results. I just can't see how a tire could possibly drop range efficiency by 20%. If it is around 10% or better, even after they wear in, I would be just fine with them. I prefer sticky tires if possible. EV makes the RR a little more critical.
bowthom
Well-known member
Hello Leafers,bowthom said:
Here is my next update:
The Michelin tires now have 10k miles on them and I am happy to report that the rolling resistance has fallen off. I am now getting efficiency rivaling the Ecopia tires. One caviat however, when the tire temp is above 70*F efficiency is good. When they are cold it drops off. And yes, I know cold air and all that but the tires do not equal the Ecopias when cold. Must have something to do with the rubber compound used. They still handle and stop way better than the Ecopias especially in the rain.
So the good news is I am again enjoying 5.0 ~ 5.8 m/kWh on my daily commute. YAY
I have a 2013 SV. I drive it about 1300 miles a month and have a very consistent usage pattern. I live in Seattle and use the car for commuting and errands.
I replaced the badly worn stock Ecopias at the end of October in 2015 (32k miles) with EP422 Plus Ecopias from Costco ($461). I have a meter on my L2 charger and I record the meter and the odometer on the first of each month. I then add any kWh I charge from external chargers, as a result I've got a pretty good monthly data set with efficiency (miles / kWh) calculated from the wall.
As I browsed this thread, it occurred to me that I've got good data to assess the effect of the tire change. I've previously noted a pretty strong seasonal effect here in Seattle. In peak summer months I typically get 4.6 miles/ kWh but in the winter it drops all the way to 3.4 miles/ kWh (measured from the wall). The best way to normalize for the seasonal variation is to compare a given month with the same month from the previous year. This is much like how companies present their financial data (Q1 2015 / Q1 2014 ) for example.
Here is the data:
Date Month / (Month from previous year)
2/1/2015 107.2%
3/1/2015 116.3%
4/1/2015 105.9%
5/1/2015 104.8%
6/6/2015 101.4%
7/1/2015 105.2%
8/1/2015 104.7%
9/1/2015 104.9%
10/1/2015 104.8%
11/2/2015 99.0% TIRE CHANGE!!
12/1/2015 99.9%
1/2/2016 99.9%
2/1/2016 98.6%
3/1/2016 98.9%
4/1/2016 97.2%
5/1/2016 106.0%
1) Before the tire change there was a regular tendency for gradual efficiency improvement of about 5% a year (at least in the last year of the tires life). It is possible that this is attributable to a the reduced rolling resistance with tire wear. It is also possible I've acquired more efficient driving habits with time or that there are other causes but I think it is the most likely because of its persistence.
2) My data suggests one might expect a 5% - 6% efficiency hit replacing badly worn tires Ecopias with new Ecopias.
3) The tire change immediately rolled back efficiency to a percent or two below the level of 12 months prior, Over the following months the new tires continued this trend. This is with the exception of the the May 2016 entry (comparing April 2016 / April 2015) appears to be a step change it will be interesting to see if this persists. April was unseasonably warm in Seattle this year (6 degrees warmer in 2016 versus 2015 ) and that may have contributed to an April 2015 boost.
All in all I'm pretty delighted with these tires. There was an immediately noticeable better grip in the wet and they seem to perform to my satisfaction.
I replaced the badly worn stock Ecopias at the end of October in 2015 (32k miles) with EP422 Plus Ecopias from Costco ($461). I have a meter on my L2 charger and I record the meter and the odometer on the first of each month. I then add any kWh I charge from external chargers, as a result I've got a pretty good monthly data set with efficiency (miles / kWh) calculated from the wall.
As I browsed this thread, it occurred to me that I've got good data to assess the effect of the tire change. I've previously noted a pretty strong seasonal effect here in Seattle. In peak summer months I typically get 4.6 miles/ kWh but in the winter it drops all the way to 3.4 miles/ kWh (measured from the wall). The best way to normalize for the seasonal variation is to compare a given month with the same month from the previous year. This is much like how companies present their financial data (Q1 2015 / Q1 2014 ) for example.
Here is the data:
Date Month / (Month from previous year)
2/1/2015 107.2%
3/1/2015 116.3%
4/1/2015 105.9%
5/1/2015 104.8%
6/6/2015 101.4%
7/1/2015 105.2%
8/1/2015 104.7%
9/1/2015 104.9%
10/1/2015 104.8%
11/2/2015 99.0% TIRE CHANGE!!
12/1/2015 99.9%
1/2/2016 99.9%
2/1/2016 98.6%
3/1/2016 98.9%
4/1/2016 97.2%
5/1/2016 106.0%
1) Before the tire change there was a regular tendency for gradual efficiency improvement of about 5% a year (at least in the last year of the tires life). It is possible that this is attributable to a the reduced rolling resistance with tire wear. It is also possible I've acquired more efficient driving habits with time or that there are other causes but I think it is the most likely because of its persistence.
2) My data suggests one might expect a 5% - 6% efficiency hit replacing badly worn tires Ecopias with new Ecopias.
3) The tire change immediately rolled back efficiency to a percent or two below the level of 12 months prior, Over the following months the new tires continued this trend. This is with the exception of the the May 2016 entry (comparing April 2016 / April 2015) appears to be a step change it will be interesting to see if this persists. April was unseasonably warm in Seattle this year (6 degrees warmer in 2016 versus 2015 ) and that may have contributed to an April 2015 boost.
All in all I'm pretty delighted with these tires. There was an immediately noticeable better grip in the wet and they seem to perform to my satisfaction.
knightmb
Well-known member
One type of tires discussed here at the forum was the Michelin "Defender" tires. These tires are not advertised directly as LRR tires but only as "Energy Saver" type of tires. They do have a 90k warranty for mileage and cost a lot less than the LRR tires Michelin does sell for the Leaf "Premier A/S" which cost nearly twice that of the "Defender" tires.
I did some research and it seemed that the "Defender" tires would be a compromise between cost and performance for the Leaf. The good news was, I had a family member with a Leaf that just got a brand new set of Michelin "Premier A/S" tires on their Leaf (and payed the premium for them), so I actually had another Leaf that I could compare to mine.
My original tires were the stock Ecopias that came with the Leaf. I would rate their performance over the life of the vehicle as average. They had average grip, average handling, road noise, etc. The one thing I did have a lot of was data for trips. I have one trip that I use to gauge my vehicle performance that is a 26 mile drive through country roads that is fairly level, straight, no stops trip (no turns, stoplights, traffic, etc.) and the same speed the entire way (50 MPH) It is a great way for me to test different tire pressures, climate control settings, etc. and get pretty consistent results using nothing but cruise control the entire way.
As a data example, my Leaf could do this trip on the Ecopias and always score exactly 5.2 efficiency every time with fair weather conditions (not hot or cold or windy day). I would run my Ecopias at 40psi to get this consistent 5.2 score for every trip.
The day I replaced my tires with the brand new Michelin Defender tires, I could tell a difference right away. I could hear the tires stick to the road as I turned corners, drove around town. They were nice tires, don't get me wrong. Great ride, quiet ride. The next day I had a chance to do an efficiency test on my faithful route to see how they stack up against my old Ecopias. The day was one of those great weather days, not too hot or cold or windy. All 4 of my tires had 36 psi cold pressure, so I wanted to see how that "stock" air pressure would do on new tires.
I drove my faithful route and at the end was surprised to only manage 4.0 efficiency for the trip. I have to admit, that did kind of worry me, I was thinking "dang I am going to lose some driving range with these tires." I almost thought about returning the tires if I was going to lose 23% off my driving range, yikes! But, I didn't want to throw away the tire performance from just one test. I figured from what I read online that new tires, more rolling resistance, need to wear them out a little and see how they perform in a later distance test.
In the mean time, the range hit was quite noticeable. The GOM is bad enough for range anxiety, but it was really showed it for these new tires. I figured I needed to do something to try and keep my range up as best as possible until the tires had some more wear. In the following few days, I had another opportunity to take my "fair weather range efficiency test" route again. This time, I inflated the tires to the maximum cold pressure of 44 psi. My same trip this time scored me a 4.5 efficiency by only increasing the tire air pressure to maximum. I figured this would be a good compromise until the tires had some time to wear and I didn't really notice a handling or ride difference running maximum cold pressure either, which was surprising. The vehicle felt just as good at 44 psi as it did at 36 psi, so I was impressed with the tires for that reason alone.
Fast forward to 1,000 miles of new tire usage, my test route would gradually start to score better and better. After about 1,500 miles of new tire usage, I actually hit 5.0 efficiency again on these new tires. With that new goalpost, I started to gradually lower tire pressure to see at what point it started to affect my efficiency. I could take the tires down to 37 psi and still score nearly 4.9 to 5.0 on my range test route after 2,000 miles of new tire usage. My tires have over 4,000 miles now and I run 40 psi in them to give me a good balance of efficiency (I can score 5.2 on my test route just like my Ecopias did) and performance for driving.
I believe that even though the Michelin "Defender" tires are not advertised as replacement LRR tires, they perform very similar because these tires are suppose to last 90k miles, so they must have a stiffer, harder compound construction which gives the same benefit as a LRR but without the added cost.
How do they compare to the actual LRR tire that Michelin sells, the "Premier A/S". Well, I had a chance to test those as well thanks to some Leaf vehicle loaning. The Premier A/S tires can achieve at 36 psi when new that the Defender does at 44 psi when given time to wear. The Premier A/S will still out-perform the Defender when using a direct 36 psi to 36 psi comparison. The only way to even up the score is to raise the Defender cold pressure psi to maximum. If you run the Premier A/S at a higher psi (like 40 psi) then it can score better than the Defender at the same psi. Example, the Premier A/S at 40 psi on my test route can score 5.6 efficiency but my Defender at 40 psi can only hit around 5.2. On the same test route, the Premier A/S at 44 psi (max) can score 5.8 efficiency but my Defender at 44 psi (max) will top out at 5.2 efficiency.
In conclusion, if you want to replace the stock Ecopia tires, either tire of the Michelin Defender or Michelin A/S LRR will beat out the stock tires in the long run. If you want to save money and don't mind running some higher tire pressure, the Michelin Defender is a great budget tire in this case. It will be rough when new, but once worn, they work nice and still give a great ride. If you have some extra money to spend on tires or just want to absolutely maximize your Leaf range, then the Michelin A/S will do this. It still provides a great ride and you don't have to baby the tire pressure as much. Either way, both should out-perform the stock Ecopia tires, so anything other than the stock tires will make you happy.
I did some research and it seemed that the "Defender" tires would be a compromise between cost and performance for the Leaf. The good news was, I had a family member with a Leaf that just got a brand new set of Michelin "Premier A/S" tires on their Leaf (and payed the premium for them), so I actually had another Leaf that I could compare to mine.
My original tires were the stock Ecopias that came with the Leaf. I would rate their performance over the life of the vehicle as average. They had average grip, average handling, road noise, etc. The one thing I did have a lot of was data for trips. I have one trip that I use to gauge my vehicle performance that is a 26 mile drive through country roads that is fairly level, straight, no stops trip (no turns, stoplights, traffic, etc.) and the same speed the entire way (50 MPH) It is a great way for me to test different tire pressures, climate control settings, etc. and get pretty consistent results using nothing but cruise control the entire way.
As a data example, my Leaf could do this trip on the Ecopias and always score exactly 5.2 efficiency every time with fair weather conditions (not hot or cold or windy day). I would run my Ecopias at 40psi to get this consistent 5.2 score for every trip.
The day I replaced my tires with the brand new Michelin Defender tires, I could tell a difference right away. I could hear the tires stick to the road as I turned corners, drove around town. They were nice tires, don't get me wrong. Great ride, quiet ride. The next day I had a chance to do an efficiency test on my faithful route to see how they stack up against my old Ecopias. The day was one of those great weather days, not too hot or cold or windy. All 4 of my tires had 36 psi cold pressure, so I wanted to see how that "stock" air pressure would do on new tires.
I drove my faithful route and at the end was surprised to only manage 4.0 efficiency for the trip. I have to admit, that did kind of worry me, I was thinking "dang I am going to lose some driving range with these tires." I almost thought about returning the tires if I was going to lose 23% off my driving range, yikes! But, I didn't want to throw away the tire performance from just one test. I figured from what I read online that new tires, more rolling resistance, need to wear them out a little and see how they perform in a later distance test.
In the mean time, the range hit was quite noticeable. The GOM is bad enough for range anxiety, but it was really showed it for these new tires. I figured I needed to do something to try and keep my range up as best as possible until the tires had some more wear. In the following few days, I had another opportunity to take my "fair weather range efficiency test" route again. This time, I inflated the tires to the maximum cold pressure of 44 psi. My same trip this time scored me a 4.5 efficiency by only increasing the tire air pressure to maximum. I figured this would be a good compromise until the tires had some time to wear and I didn't really notice a handling or ride difference running maximum cold pressure either, which was surprising. The vehicle felt just as good at 44 psi as it did at 36 psi, so I was impressed with the tires for that reason alone.
Fast forward to 1,000 miles of new tire usage, my test route would gradually start to score better and better. After about 1,500 miles of new tire usage, I actually hit 5.0 efficiency again on these new tires. With that new goalpost, I started to gradually lower tire pressure to see at what point it started to affect my efficiency. I could take the tires down to 37 psi and still score nearly 4.9 to 5.0 on my range test route after 2,000 miles of new tire usage. My tires have over 4,000 miles now and I run 40 psi in them to give me a good balance of efficiency (I can score 5.2 on my test route just like my Ecopias did) and performance for driving.
I believe that even though the Michelin "Defender" tires are not advertised as replacement LRR tires, they perform very similar because these tires are suppose to last 90k miles, so they must have a stiffer, harder compound construction which gives the same benefit as a LRR but without the added cost.
How do they compare to the actual LRR tire that Michelin sells, the "Premier A/S". Well, I had a chance to test those as well thanks to some Leaf vehicle loaning. The Premier A/S tires can achieve at 36 psi when new that the Defender does at 44 psi when given time to wear. The Premier A/S will still out-perform the Defender when using a direct 36 psi to 36 psi comparison. The only way to even up the score is to raise the Defender cold pressure psi to maximum. If you run the Premier A/S at a higher psi (like 40 psi) then it can score better than the Defender at the same psi. Example, the Premier A/S at 40 psi on my test route can score 5.6 efficiency but my Defender at 40 psi can only hit around 5.2. On the same test route, the Premier A/S at 44 psi (max) can score 5.8 efficiency but my Defender at 44 psi (max) will top out at 5.2 efficiency.
In conclusion, if you want to replace the stock Ecopia tires, either tire of the Michelin Defender or Michelin A/S LRR will beat out the stock tires in the long run. If you want to save money and don't mind running some higher tire pressure, the Michelin Defender is a great budget tire in this case. It will be rough when new, but once worn, they work nice and still give a great ride. If you have some extra money to spend on tires or just want to absolutely maximize your Leaf range, then the Michelin A/S will do this. It still provides a great ride and you don't have to baby the tire pressure as much. Either way, both should out-perform the stock Ecopia tires, so anything other than the stock tires will make you happy.
Why didn't you try the same 40psi in the new tires when the range dropped at 36psi? A direct comparison would be best done at the same pressure, but that was still helpful info.
knightmb
Well-known member
I had more access to my vehicle than the loaner, so I could test mine several days out of the week, but had fewer times to test the vehicle of my relative.LeftieBiker said:
powersurge
Well-known member
I have been driving for 40 years, bought many tires, and followed the Consumers Reports on tires every year. Maybe I'm getting old and lazy, but I have stopped trying to "trick out" all of my possessions (cars, stereos, computers, guns, archery bows, etc..) with upgrades that will make my rig "perfect".
The car runs well as bought from Nissan, and we all put a good 20-30K miles on these tires before ever having to think about replacing them. The ecopias are common (sold at walmart, Costco, everywhere) and cheap, and If one of them goes, you can replace just the bad one instantly.
I personally cannot justify the time and expense of researching possible better rolling tires, and spending my money experimenting with any "new" type of tire (which of course will cost twice the price (with my bad luck)).
In my experience, there is no "magic" tire that will significantly perform so much better than the ones that Nissan has decided to put on every one of its Leafs....
Replacing with the originals gives me no worries, and more time to worry about my life's other f***ed up problems.
Peace....
of mind.....
The car runs well as bought from Nissan, and we all put a good 20-30K miles on these tires before ever having to think about replacing them. The ecopias are common (sold at walmart, Costco, everywhere) and cheap, and If one of them goes, you can replace just the bad one instantly.
I personally cannot justify the time and expense of researching possible better rolling tires, and spending my money experimenting with any "new" type of tire (which of course will cost twice the price (with my bad luck)).
In my experience, there is no "magic" tire that will significantly perform so much better than the ones that Nissan has decided to put on every one of its Leafs....
Replacing with the originals gives me no worries, and more time to worry about my life's other f***ed up problems.
Peace....
of mind.....
My main objection to the OEM tires was that they made the handling and steering "squishy" - a fact that I didn't even fully realize until I put Pirelli snows on it and the steering and handling improved markedly. I was also concerned about sidewall failures on the "Ecrapia" OEM-grade tires. I actually put fairly cheap tires on to replace them, but they are still an improvement. ;-)
ENIAC
Well-known member
knightmb said:
I also went with the Defender. It's been awhile, but as I recall the price on the Premier A/S I was quoted wasn't much more than the Defender. Certainly not 2x. I just looked it up and Tire Rick currently shows a $2 difference. Did you receive some sort of promotional pricing on the Defender?
http://www.tirerack.com/tires/TireSearchResults.jsp?tireIndex=0&autoMake=Nissan&autoYear=2011&autoModel=Leaf&autoModClar=SL&width=205%2F&ratio=55&diameter=16&sortCode=44950&skipOver=true&minSpeedRating=H&minLoadRating=S
knightmb
Well-known member
In my area, the Premier A/S was $161 a tire and the Defender was $89 a tire. I did look at ordering the tires online to save some money, but would still have to pay to have the old tires removed, new ones installed, balance, etc. The local tire shop Discount Tire Store had the tires in stock for that price and as far as I know it wasn't a special or promotion at the time. When facing the difference between $400 bill for Defenders and $700 for the Premier A/S, I figured I would give the Defenders a try. So far been pretty happy and with 90k type tires, should last a long time. My poor stock Ecopias didn't last 27k miles before going bald. I know the Premier A/S would give me better range, but I don't often drive out of state and my area has such a large charging infrastructure setup that range isn't much an issue unless I go out of state (like KY, that's a charging desert). :lol:ENIAC said:
minispeed
Well-known member
The defender is an LRR tire and marketed by Michelin as such, it just isn't the key quality that the tire wad designed for. From what I remember reading about it the defender's main design is to last a long time without giving up a great amount in any other category. The premier is designed to be safe when worn and uses a very new and at least for now exclusive to that tire tread design that gets wider as it wears instead of narrower. If you live in a place with a lot of rain it's probably worth it.
If you wanted LRR as your top goal then the tire for you is the energy saver, stock tire on Leaf 17s and available in 16s in 205 60 16 which is a slightly better size than 205 55 16.
If you wanted LRR as your top goal then the tire for you is the energy saver, stock tire on Leaf 17s and available in 16s in 205 60 16 which is a slightly better size than 205 55 16.
Lambtron
Well-known member
redLEAF said:
I put a set of Bridgestone DriveGuards on this week. I've got them pumped to 40psi. On smooth asphalt they ride smooth but any bumps in the road seem to be amplified greater than the original Ecopias.
My mileage took a hit from 4.5-5.5 (w/o heat) to 3.8-4.0. I also notice my max crawl speed went from 4 MPH to 3 MPH. I'm going to try pumping pressure to 45 to see if the crawl speed increases. That may indicate if better efficiency is possible. (Tire max pressure is 51 psi).
juice13
Member
Lambtron said:
I have have experienced similar results after replacing the worn Ecopias with slightly used Driveguards (16 inch SV rims).
Efficiency dropped from 4.0 lead footing to 3.0, hypermiling from 5.0 to no more than 4.1. The colder weather may have some impact, but the drop was immediate and lasting. We've put about 5k miles on each set of tires. 43 psi on each set.
The range hit was real, but not being inconvenienced with a flat tire as this is our carpool car is a huge plus. That being said, with the battery degradation I think we'll go back to Ecopias and a donut in the trunk next time to get more usable range out of it. (down to 83% SOH and 11 bars.)
