Nissan: We Can Match Bolt

GM's customer service (or lack thereof) is well-known. Right now, the Bolt EV has a halo around it, just like the LEAF did when it was shown in 2009. Don't let that halo blind you of GM's continued failures in customer service and customer safety.

The Bolt EV will not have the over-the-air updates Tesla has because of the whole dealership thing. Apparently this violates the direct servicing agreement that dealerships have. Finally, GM is getting burned by the same laws that they leveraged to keep Tesla from selling cars in Michigan and other states.

For me, I don't expect to replace my LEAF for quite some time. I had my last car, a 2004 Mazda 3, for 9 years and 87,000 miles. I'll probably do the same with the LEAF. Even with significant battery degradation, the LEAF will continue to suit my needs.

In 8 years (I've had my LEAF for 1 year), it will be the year 2024. A 60kWh battery will seem laughably small. ICE vehicles are relegated to car shows and illegal immigrants. The first EV with an advertised 1000 miles range will arrive. That's when I will make my decision for my next EV.

^ Maybe the GM of old, but "new GM" has been incredibly responsive to Volt owners. Not that they had to be responsive often - the Volt is a VERY well engineered and built car.

cwerdna said:

DarthPuppy said:

As for trust, I would trust Nissan over GM.

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Ditto. My parents have been burned by too many not very reliable GM cars, which is all of them they ever had. They stopped buying GM ages ago. Other than a Dodge Caravan (obviously not GM), it's been only Toyotas and Nissans for them and myself since then. (I'm on Nissan #4 now. Prior to the Leafs, it was a 350Z and a Maxima.)

Back w/GM's old management, it seems GM was always in denial about the superior reliability of Japanese cars and always kept saying their cars were competitive. To this day, they continue to make a boatload of unreliable cars (and FAR too many battering ram of death class vehicles) but at least they've improved in other aspects such as apparent build quality, interior quality, NVH and handling.

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A few years ago I shared your viewpoint, after getting burned on GM cars in the 70s and and 80s they were dead to me. But that was then and this is now, and lately it seems Toyota in particular is in decline, meanwhile our Volt has been flawless. Bureaucracies evolve slowly but it looks to me like GM is evolving forward and others devolving over the last few years. Look at Volkswagen, they sure aren't some marvel of agility.

dhanson865 said:

Nubo said:

I've always said it would take some real competition for Nissan to up its EV game and that they'd rest on their (fairly earned) laurels until then.

But it's interesting to see so many vehicles now in development/planning with these range claims. WHERE ARE THOSE BATTERIES? Do they yet exist in usable form or is this all predicated on laboratory data and predictions?

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The batteries for the Bolt and the Model 3 exist already. There are batteries for other competitors but they don't matter as much.

As to resting on their laurels after watching Tesla do monthly or there about updates to the Model S software since 2012 it really bites that I can't drive to the nearest Nissan dealer and get upgraded software for my 2012 Leaf...

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The heck with "driving to the dealer", Tesla owners get the software over the air. Some have called with minor issues and had Tesla develop a patch and send it while still on the phone! Makes Nissan look like they're in the stone-age.

I could go on and on but you can't tell me that a company as big as Nissan can't do a simple post sale software update/fix/release of any kind?

That alone is reason enough to buy the Tesla Model 3 over the Leaf 2. ...

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People talk about Model 3 like it's almost here. Tesla has a consistent track record in regard to meeting dates. Model X was debuted and paraded in Feb 2012, with a 2013 launch date. A very select few reservation holders have just gotten their vehicles within the last few weeks. So while Tesla is light-years ahead in technical innovation, I'd give a big edge to Nissan when it comes in ability to execute. I.e., get actual cars on the road. These 2 vehicles may not meet in the competitive arena for quite some time.

+1!

mwalsh said:

^ Maybe the GM of old, but "new GM" has been incredibly responsive to Volt owners. Not that they had to be responsive often - the Volt is a VERY well engineered and built car.

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One advantage to dealerships is that there's a lot of them. If you did need service, it's easier to access them than the already stressed Tesla service centers, let alone when the 3 comes, unless they expand it quickly.

A few months ago Carlos said he thought LG has the best battery's at that time. We know LG makes the battery's for the Bolt and at an astounding low price. I've also read that the batterys LG is supplying have new technology that make them more tolerant to heat. In the case of the Bolt this allowed a new smaller and more efficient thermal management system.

Do you think Nissan could switch to LG for the next Leaf? With the volume of sales I would think Nissan could secure a similar price, and who knows, if the thermal management system is a LG design, perhaps that could be used as well.

I'm not sure having an air gap between Russian hackers and my ABS controller is the world's worst idea.

TomT said:

Sorry, but after Nissan's crap and silence the last four years, I trust GM far more!

DarthPuppy said:

As for trust, I would trust Nissan over GM.

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I would vote for GM as well, but for a different reason. A good friend of mine drives a Volt, and it is clearly over-engineered. The durability of the car and battery far exceeds that of my Leaf. Now Nissan could come back and fix past engineering mistakes with the Leaf 2.0. But it's more likely that GM will get it right, since they got it right the first time and don't really have as major mistakes to correct.

Nubo said:

dhanson865 said:

Nubo said:

I've always said it would take some real competition for Nissan to up its EV game and that they'd rest on their (fairly earned) laurels until then.

But it's interesting to see so many vehicles now in development/planning with these range claims. WHERE ARE THOSE BATTERIES? Do they yet exist in usable form or is this all predicated on laboratory data and predictions?

Click to expand...

The batteries for the Bolt and the Model 3 exist already. There are batteries for other competitors but they don't matter as much.

As to resting on their laurels after watching Tesla do monthly or there about updates to the Model S software since 2012 it really bites that I can't drive to the nearest Nissan dealer and get upgraded software for my 2012 Leaf...

Click to expand...

The heck with "driving to the dealer", Tesla owners get the software over the air. Some have called with minor issues and had Tesla develop a patch and send it while still on the phone! Makes Nissan look like they're in the stone-age.

I could go on and on but you can't tell me that a company as big as Nissan can't do a simple post sale software update/fix/release of any kind?

That alone is reason enough to buy the Tesla Model 3 over the Leaf 2. ...

Click to expand...

People talk about Model 3 like it's almost here. Tesla has a consistent track record in regard to meeting dates. Model X was debuted and paraded in Feb 2012, with a 2013 launch date. A very select few reservation holders have just gotten their vehicles within the last few weeks. So while Tesla is light-years ahead in technical innovation, I'd give a big edge to Nissan when it comes in ability to execute. I.e., get actual cars on the road. These 2 vehicles may not meet in the competitive arena for quite some time.

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Model X is not a good example of how Tesla announces and reveals a product. Model X was done as an afterthought to Model S using the same base. They announced it but then decided to do revisions of Model S (the D reveal) ahead of finishing X. X was voluntarily delayed in favor of putting out more Model S (demand was stronger than they expected). You can say that for the X reservation holders that was a frustrating wait but I don't think you can suggest that applies to Model 3 timelines.

Model 3 will be revealed in March 2016, go into production some time in 2017. Even if you have to wait until 2018 for it I'd say it'll be in drivers hands around the same time as Leaf 2. We'll know more in a few months.

When will Leaf 2 even be announced? Will it be a 2017 or 2018 model year when the first ones are sold?

LKK said:

Do you think Nissan could switch to LG for the next Leaf? With the volume of sales I would think Nissan could secure a similar price, and who knows, if the thermal management system is a LG design, perhaps that could be used as well.

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Nissan has a tremendous amount of financial and intellectual capital invested in the Leaf battery, not to mention 2 (huge) battery manufacturing plants (Japan and US). I think some of Ghosn's comments (over a year ago) were as much (internal) motivation/negotiating (at the time) as much as they were comments about the technology. Since then, Nissan has moved ahead with a modified battery chemistry (2015) as well as increased battery capacity (2016). Obviously, anything can happen, but I think it would take a major shake-up @Nissan to abandon their internal battery source.

It's unfathomable that Nissan hasn't begun to put at least a meager thermal management system into their cars. One would think that this issue would be A number 1 at Nissan.

GM and Tesla seem to have proven the concept. The Bolt will be better received than any future Nissan offering just due to this one issue that Nissan won't / can't address. Sad.

Surely they'll have to have one in the 60 kWh pack?

Roostre said:

It's unfathomable that Nissan hasn't begun to put at least a meager thermal management system into their cars. One would think that this issue would be A number 1 at Nissan.

GM and Tesla seem to have proven the concept. The Bolt will be better received than any future Nissan offering just due to this one issue that Nissan won't / can't address. Sad.

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I think a non active/liquid thermal management system is something that ultimately will be much better in terms of simplicity, cost and weight. I also believe that eventually all BEV's will go there. I have a lot of sympathy for people in hot places that bought a car that lost capacity early but you can't say that due to the early failure it will never work and that an EV needs an active/liquid thermal management system. We could debate Nissan's decision to not include it on any of the changes they made to the leaf but we can never say if the decision is right without knowing the types of changes needed, the cost and most importantly if they ever tested it and what the results of the tests were.

Most potential EV buyers have no idea what thermal management in an electric car is and what the difference between active and passive would be. I would say it's a safe guess that no one outside of enthusiasts, tech junkies, engineers, previous Leaf buyers from hot climates or people acting on the advice of the above will ever buy a Tesla/Bolt or any other EV based on thermal management. Out of the 17 million or so US car sales last year that's a very small drop in the bucket.

Back to the original topic I kind of hope that the Leaf 2 doesn't go to just top the bolt. I think there's a lot more benefit to a cheaper 120-150 mile EV. There's a benefit for a consumer who doesn't have to overpay for range they will never use and the benefit to the environment of having more people be able to afford EVs.

I would guess that's part of why we've seen the 30kWh pack come out this year. With just an aero and a weight savings it should easily be able to go in a car that can top 125 miles of EPA range. I also wouldn't be shocked if we keep seeing the old body style being sold at a cheaper price point alongside the leaf 2, similar to how they transitioned to the new Rogue and kept the old Rogue as the Rogue select.

minispeed said:

I think a non active/liquid thermal management system is something that ultimately will be much better in terms of simplicity, cost and weight. I also believe that eventually all BEV's will go there.

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So why in all the years since the issues surfaced hasn't this magic fix been done?
Heck, a fan or ducting of the existing A/C system would seem within reach.

minispeed said:

Most potential EV buyers have no idea what thermal management in an electric car is and what the difference between active and passive would be. I would say it's a safe guess that no one outside of enthusiasts, tech junkies, engineers, previous Leaf buyers from hot climates or people acting on the advice of the above will ever buy a Tesla/Bolt or any other EV based on thermal management.

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I would say it's a safe guess that no one outside of enthusiasts, tech junkies, engineers, previous Leaf buyers from hot climates or people acting on the advice of the above have ever posted to the numerous forums for EVs/EREVs. Any consumer doing basic research into such a major purpose is almost guaranteed to ask questions about how long the battery will last. The proof is in the forums as battery longevity questions come up quite often. The answers here at the Leaf forum are very different from what you will see on other EV/EREV forums. Most will point out the thermal management and how important a factor it is in long term ownership costs and satisfaction. Who wants to worry about their new car being a paper weight in a few years?

As for the subject of this thread; I truly hope Nissan can rise to the occasion. We love our Leaf for what it is and lust after the qualities that would make it better.

Roostre said:

minispeed said:

So why in all the years since the issues surfaced hasn't this magic fix been done?
Heck, a fan or ducting of the existing A/C system would seem within reach.


I would say it's a safe guess that no one outside of enthusiasts, tech junkies, engineers, previous Leaf buyers from hot climates or people acting on the advice of the above have ever posted to the numerous forums for EVs/EREVs. Any consumer doing basic research into such a major purpose is almost guaranteed to ask questions about how long the battery will last. The proof is in the forums as battery longevity questions come up quite often. The answers here at the Leaf forum are very different from what you will see on other EV/EREV forums. Most will point out the thermal management and how important a factor it is in long term ownership costs and satisfaction. Who wants to worry about their new car being a paper weight in a few years?

As for the subject of this thread; I truly hope Nissan can rise to the occasion. We love our Leaf for what it is and lust after the qualities that would make it better.

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As I said in my previous post "We could debate Nissan's decision to not include it on any of the changes they made to the leaf but we can never say if the decision is right without knowing the types of changes needed, the cost and most importantly if they ever tested it and what the results of the tests were."

A duct takes space and that can either take up interior space or mean sheet metal has to be moved around. Moving sheet metal around means re tooling and new crash testing. They brought out battery changes. I'm not going to argue if it was enough or if it worked but without knowing the data they knew when they made that decision we can't say if they made the right choice only how it turned out. We can only judge them with the hindsight of how it turned out and very little of the information they had at the time.

All I'm trying to say is that if the battery doesn't need it that is a good thing.



As for future sales, even the less educated that choose to educate themselves on forums are a huge minority. In my opinion adding those people who join/read a forum for info means going from something like 0.01% of car buyers to 0.0101%.

Forums don't present info in an easy to read flashy method. Most people who will google Nissan leaf reviews will find these and go no further:
http://www.caranddriver.com/nissan/leaf
http://www.edmunds.com/nissan/leaf/2015/review/
http://www.kbb.com/nissan/leaf/2015/?r=31821083746653268

Nothing about thermal management, I fully expect Car and Drivers comment of a lacking telescopic steering wheel on a car this tech laden to put off more buyers than no thermal management.

I also would expect someone who asks a dealer about something they may have read to pop the hood, show them the "radiator" and say that that may have been true on other ones but see this one does have it just like your ICE car and for people to believe it.

LG is doing the electronics on the Bolt. It will have apple/android entertainment systems. It might rival the Tesla system, which is somewhat dated over what we have on our phone OSes. My Tesla software is updated, but still needs improvement with the maps and BT linking.

Unless Nissan announces something soon, I will likely be a Chevy Bolt driver this year. Nissan and Tesla are vaporware and will likely be a year late to Chevy's Party.

DarthPuppy said:

As for trust, I would trust Nissan over GM.

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GetOffYourGas said:

I would vote for GM as well, but for a different reason. A good friend of mine drives a Volt, and it is clearly over-engineered. The durability of the car and battery far exceeds that of my Leaf. Now Nissan could come back and fix past engineering mistakes with the Leaf 2.0. But it's more likely that GM will get it right, since they got it right the first time and don't really have as major mistakes to correct.

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I guess it depends on what you call GM's first time. I thought the Bolt was a pure BEV, not a PHEV like the Volt. But I could be wrong. That would mean their first time, discounting the EV1, would be the Spark. That was the only EV I test drove and actively disliked. And that came later than the Leaf. So I'm not inclined to believe GM is ahead of Nissan.

LTLFTcomposite said:

cwerdna said:

DarthPuppy said:

As for trust, I would trust Nissan over GM.

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Ditto. My parents have been burned by too many not very reliable GM cars, which is all of them they ever had. They stopped buying GM ages ago. Other than a Dodge Caravan (obviously not GM), it's been only Toyotas and Nissans for them and myself since then. (I'm on Nissan #4 now. Prior to the Leafs, it was a 350Z and a Maxima.)

Back w/GM's old management, it seems GM was always in denial about the superior reliability of Japanese cars and always kept saying their cars were competitive. To this day, they continue to make a boatload of unreliable cars (and FAR too many battering ram of death class vehicles) but at least they've improved in other aspects such as apparent build quality, interior quality, NVH and handling.

Click to expand...

A few years ago I shared your viewpoint, after getting burned on GM cars in the 70s and and 80s they were dead to me. But that was then and this is now, and lately it seems Toyota in particular is in decline, meanwhile our Volt has been flawless. Bureaucracies evolve slowly but it looks to me like GM is evolving forward and others devolving over the last few years. Look at Volkswagen, they sure aren't some marvel of agility.

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FWIW, most folks I know w/Volts are happy w/them and seem to have few problems w/them. However, more recently, I learned of some w/very problematic Volts and some that got bought back under lemon law.

When the Volt first came out, I was surprised that it got surprisingly good reliability ratings for a 1st model year GM car. However, looking at Consumer Reports reliability for all model years of Volt (except the '11, which has insufficient data) has declined to just average.

If you look at CR reliability ratings for GMs brands across all model years vs. Toyota and its brands, you will STILL find a lot of GM vehicles w/below average reliability, some well below, some average and a few above average. For Toyota, there are few below average and most are above average, often well above.

In looking at my Dec '15 CR issue which lists the 20 least reliable vehicles, 6 of them were GM. 0 were from Toyota or its brands.

If you look at http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/2013/04/best-worst-used-cars/index.htm, notice a bunch of Toyotas and Lexuses being amongst the recommended vehicles (and no GM except for the Corolla-based Toyota Matrix twin built at NUMMI Pontiac Vibe) while none were in the "Worst of the worst used cars". A bunch of GM vehicles made it in that latter bucket.

I'm not sure I'd agree that Toyota is "in decline", from a reliability POV.

It should be obvious by now that Nissan made a basic system design decision (years ago) not to have active thermal management in their EV platforms. They may have "dropped the ball" in battery design/testing (at least initially), but I suspect the long-term goal is more heat-resistant batteries, not a better method to cool them. Don't forget, eventually battery capacities will be so large (think beyond Tesla), that any degradation will become less critical; when you start out with < 100 miles range, losing some is more obvious.