Tesla Powerwall

My Nissan Leaf Forum

Help Support My Nissan Leaf Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.
RegGuheert said:
Valdemar said:
Looks like the system is based on their existing inverter SE7600A-USS, which likely means those who already have it can just add missing components, mainly the battery, which doesn't necessarily mean there will be many takers.
The existing inverter is SE7600A-US. The new inverter is SE7600A-USS.

Indeed. No easy upgrades then. Seems like the solution is not designed to provide backup power to whole house, only to some loads that have to be connected to a new separate panel, but you can probably land all your loads there leaving only solar breakers on the main panel ginen you can stay under 5kW load total. Sounds like a $2,000 job just for that extra panel.
 
RegGuheert said:
Their StorEdge webpage includes further information on the product including a link to the datasheet.
Looking at the datasheet, I see some interesting things:

1. The battery is connected in parallel with the PV strings. I suppose this is the beauty of the SolarEdge approach of using the optimizers at each PV module. Those DC/DC converters can perform the function of peak power point tracking and still provide whatever battery voltage is required given the operating conditions of the system.

2. Only ONE battery is allowed to be connected. This seems a little odd since Tesla included a DC/DC converter in EACH PowerWall. My conclusion is that those things are meant to be connected in parallel. (Note 4 does say that you should contact SolarEdge if you wish to connect more than one battery.)

3. Maximum continuous power draw from the battery is 3.3 kW. This tells me that they REALLY mean it when they say that you can only connect one battery. Tesla says their batteries are limited to 2 kW output power, so connecting two would mean 4 kW. So if you can only connect one, then you really can only get 2 kW output power. Does this mean that you are limited to 2 kW at nighttime when in standalone mode? If so, most will find they cannot even run the distribution fan in their main air handler. (Forget about running the heat pump, if you have one of those!)

At this point, I'm thinking the addition of the battery provides some utility, but limiting the output power to 2 kW when there is no sunlight is a pretty severe limitation. I really don't understand why they cannot allow higher power operation from the battery alone given the 7600 VA rating of the inverter in this unit.
RegGuheert said:
Once we have pricing information, we should be able to compare the per-kWh cost of this solution when compared with the $0.13/kWh we get for the Enphase AC Battery (assuming the application for both is time-shifting consumption). Tesla currently lists the PowerWall at $429/kWh, which is about half of Enphase' AC Battery, which comes in at $833/kWh, but PowerWall contains no inverter. The PowerWall solution might be cheaper if more than one PowerWall is attached to the StorEdge inverter.
But apparently there is a limit of only ONE PowerWall.
 
Tesla has discontinued the 10-kWh Powerwall option for standby backup application. It seems Tesla has realized that where Powerwall has its real value is in daily cycling applications.

Also, it appears that development of the Powerwall product continues at a rapid pace:
Green Tech Media said:
"We've got the Tesla Powerwall and Powerpack, which we have a lot of trials underway right now around the world. We've seen very good results," said Musk during a talk to Tesla car owners in Paris, The Verge reports. "We'll be coming out with version two of the Powerwall probably around July, August this year, which will see [a] further step-change in capabilities."
 
Someone please explain where the demand for this product will come from at that price:

Tesla Energy Reveals Powerpack Pricing, Starting From 200 kWh Of Storage

...Tesla Energy launched its online ordering site for the Powerpacks energy storage systems.

The smallest available ESS consists two 100 kWh Powerpacks (200 kWh total)...

The 200 kWh/100 kW ESS costs some $162,000 all-in (a single Powerpack alone costs $47,000 or $470 per kWh), which translates to $810 per kWh for the whole complete system...
http://insideevs.com/tesla-energy-reveals-powerpack-pricing/
 
edatoakrun said:
Someone please explain where the demand for this product will come from at that price:

Tesla Energy Reveals Powerpack Pricing, Starting From 200 kWh Of Storage

...Tesla Energy launched its online ordering site for the Powerpacks energy storage systems.

The smallest available ESS consists two 100 kWh Powerpacks (200 kWh total)...

The 200 kWh/100 kW ESS costs some $162,000 all-in (a single Powerpack alone costs $47,000 or $470 per kWh), which translates to $810 per kWh for the whole complete system...
http://insideevs.com/tesla-energy-reveals-powerpack-pricing/

The demand will evolve over time the result of GF (GigaFactory) economies of scale price reductions in batteries,
just as will a very profitable Model 3 be available in 2017, right? How can you question a Musk prediction?
 
lorenfb said:
The demand will evolve over time the result of GF (GigaFactory) economies of scale price reductions in batteries,
just as will a very profitable Model 3 be available in 2017, right? How can you question a Musk prediction?
As a small scale TSLA investor, I'm happy to see that price. To me it means they have demand that will pay that at the supply they can offer. That's an excellent markup and should make Tesla Energy profitable now. I don't think they're so focused on residential users at this point, perhaps just industrial users that want to shave peak power costs.
 
edatoakrun said:
Someone please explain where the demand for this product will come from at that price:

Tesla Energy Reveals Powerpack Pricing, Starting From 200 kWh Of Storage

...Tesla Energy launched its online ordering site for the Powerpacks energy storage systems.

The smallest available ESS consists two 100 kWh Powerpacks (200 kWh total)...

The 200 kWh/100 kW ESS costs some $162,000 all-in (a single Powerpack alone costs $47,000 or $470 per kWh), which translates to $810 per kWh for the whole complete system...
http://insideevs.com/tesla-energy-reveals-powerpack-pricing/
Compared to what? Adding a peaker unit? Or maybe decommission a 24/7 generator mostly used for peak hours and back-up?
 
sparky said:
As a small scale TSLA investor, I'm happy to see that price. To me it means they have demand that will pay that at the supply they can offer. That's an excellent markup and should make Tesla Energy profitable now. I don't think they're so focused on residential users at this point, perhaps just industrial users that want to shave peak power costs.
I think a big market for these huge Powerpacks will be utilities looking to load balance, a very high value application. Powerpacks will have to stand up to considerably higher cycling than car batteries (and they use different chemistry than Tesla's car batteries, of course). Perhaps the 100 kWh/200 kWh is the actual load capability and the batteries themselves are considerably larger to manage the cycling demands over many years. I expect that they have a pretty robust warranty as well and that may include periodic replacements. Just guessing though...
 
dgpcolorado said:
sparky said:
As a small scale TSLA investor, I'm happy to see that price. To me it means they have demand that will pay that at the supply they can offer. That's an excellent markup and should make Tesla Energy profitable now. I don't think they're so focused on residential users at this point, perhaps just industrial users that want to shave peak power costs.
I think a big market for these huge Powerpacks will be utilities looking to load balance, a very high value application. Powerpacks will have to stand up to considerably higher cycling than car batteries (and they use different chemistry than Tesla's car batteries, of course). Perhaps the 100 kWh/200 kWh is the actual load capability and the batteries themselves are considerably larger to manage the cycling demands over many years. I expect that they have a pretty robust warranty as well and that may include periodic replacements. Just guessing though...

Right, just guessing like us all!
 
Here's a video from Australia of a SolarEdge/PowerWall system install:

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eYTB7QJaClA[/youtube]

Frankly, I'm amazed to see those guys up on the roof in that kind of wind. :eek: It's good they're tethered!
 
It seems the capacity warranty for the Tesla Powerwall still lasts for ten years, but has been reduced to 60% or 18 MWh at that point: Tesla Energy's Incredible Shrinking Powerwall Warranty.

That's a bit better than the LEAF's battery capacity warranty since it guarantees 72% at five years (and Tesla's goes to ten). OTOH, 18 MWh only comes to 2800 full cycles (at the full 6.4 kWh capacity). That warranty pales when compared to the warranty Enphase offers for the AC Battery, which is 80% capacity retention at 10 years or 7300 cycles.

So, let's see how they stack up in terms of US$/kWh (discharge):
- Tesla Energy: US$3500/18,000 kWh = US$0.194/kWh (Assumes Tesla meets their price and excludes the price of the inverter.)
- Enphase Energy: US$1000/(7300*1.2 kWh*0.95*0.9*0.9) = US$1000/6740 kWh = US$0.148/kWh (1.2 kWh, 95% usable capacity, 90% round-trip efficiency, 90% average capacity over life, inverter included, Envoy excluded, assumes all 6740 kWh is used within the cycles OR Enphase bases warranty on total energy discharged, both of which are unlikely)

Of course, the Tesla offering supports off-grid application while the Enphase product is grid-tied only. IMO, Tesla will have difficulty competing with lead-acid in off-grid applications due to price and will likewise have difficulty competing with Enphase for time-shifting grid-tied applications. Elon will need to really talk this this one up to try to get it to sell.
 
RegGuheert said:
That's a bit better than the LEAF's battery capacity warranty since it guarantees 72% at five years (and Tesla's goes to ten).
If we assume the old chart about the capacity bars is still correct it's more like 66% or if we assume that SOH represents the capacity it's more like 62-65%.
 
QueenBee said:
RegGuheert said:
That's a bit better than the LEAF's battery capacity warranty since it guarantees 72% at five years (and Tesla's goes to ten).
If we assume the old chart about the capacity bars is still correct it's more like 66% or if we assume that SOH represents the capacity it's more like 62-65%.
Andy Palmer confirmed at the Saturday August 24, 2013 Phoenix dinner that the service manual chart was correct.
15% for the first capacity bar, around 6% (6.25% listed in first manual) for the remaining bars.
See http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=13192&start=380#p320953.

But as you point out SOH and % capacity do appear to have to drop to more like 61% or 62% and be there for two or three weeks in warm weather for the eighth capacity bar to drop.

Was my experience in early June at about five years and two weeks from LEAF in service date. Another three months more from manufacture date.
 
Tesla recently announced their new Powerwall 2 product. Interestingly, they have changed from offering a DC-coupled product to an AC-coupled product, more inline with what Enphase is offering with their AC Battery. Here are the technical specifications:

Tesla said:
Usable Capacity
13.5 kWh
Depth of Discharge
100%
Efficiency
90% round-trip
Power
7kW peak / 5kW continuous
Supported Applications
Solar self-consumption Time of use load shifting Backup Off grid
Warranty
10 years
Scalable
Up to 9 Powerwalls
Operating Temperature
-4° to 122°F / -20°C to 50°C
Dimensions
L x W x D: 44" x 29" x 5.5" (1150mm x 755mm x 155mm)
Weight
264.4 lb / 120 kg
Installation
Floor or wall mounted Indoor or outdoor
Certification
UL and IEC certified Grid code compliant
As you can see, they have doubled the usable energy and nearly quadrupled the power capability. Price is now 1/2 the price of the Enphase AC Battery on a per-kWh basis (but that is in Elon-dollars, which are often quite a bit lower than real dollars). Frankly, this product looks significantly more attractive than the previous version.
 
Sorry for the noobie question:

With this battery installed in home, how does the customer disengage from the Grid (i.e. the utility company) and use the battery solely? Will Tesla install some kind of switch for end-user to engage or dis-engage from utility grid/battery ?

Ideally, I would like to charge the battery overnight (low cost) and in the daytime, disengage from the utility grid.
Did Tesla develop an agreement with local utility companies for these systems?

I recall a couple of years ago, I was reading about V2G products on this forum and it seems, any V2G system did not make it into the US market due to local utility companies not desiring to lose out to these systems.


RegGuheert said:
It seems the capacity warranty for the Tesla Powerwall still lasts for ten years, but has been reduced to 60% or 18 MWh at that point: Tesla Energy's Incredible Shrinking Powerwall Warranty.

That's a bit better than the LEAF's battery capacity warranty since it guarantees 72% at five years (and Tesla's goes to ten). OTOH, 18 MWh only comes to 2800 full cycles (at the full 6.4 kWh capacity). That warranty pales when compared to the warranty Enphase offers for the AC Battery, which is 80% capacity retention at 10 years or 7300 cycles.

So, let's see how they stack up in terms of US$/kWh (discharge):
- Tesla Energy: US$3500/18,000 kWh = US$0.194/kWh (Assumes Tesla meets their price and excludes the price of the inverter.)
- Enphase Energy: US$1000/(7300*1.2 kWh*0.95*0.9*0.9) = US$1000/6740 kWh = US$0.148/kWh (1.2 kWh, 95% usable capacity, 90% round-trip efficiency, 90% average capacity over life, inverter included, Envoy excluded, assumes all 6740 kWh is used within the cycles OR Enphase bases warranty on total energy discharged, both of which are unlikely)

Of course, the Tesla offering supports off-grid application while the Enphase product is grid-tied only. IMO, Tesla will have difficulty competing with lead-acid in off-grid applications due to price and will likewise have difficulty competing with Enphase for time-shifting grid-tied applications. Elon will need to really talk this this one up to try to get it to sell.
 
mxp said:
With this battery installed in home, how does the customer disengage from the Grid (i.e. the utility company) and use the battery solely?
Generally, no. If one wanted to do this, one would probably need to purchase several powerwall batteries, along with lots of solar panels for charging them.
Will Tesla install some kind of switch for end-user to engage or dis-engage from utility grid/battery ?
The new Powerwall 2.0 batteries include a built-in inverter for connecting to the mains. Along with the software for controlling it, this will automatically choose when to charge and discharge the battery. There will be no user-accessible "switch", other than a breaker (which is not something that a user should be flipping regularly).
Ideally, I would like to charge the battery overnight (low cost) and in the daytime, disengage from the utility grid.
Indeed, that's how most owners make use of the powerwall. In addition, it provides a whole-house UPS for when the power goes out.
 
So with powerwall 2.0 it sounds like a much more integrated solution. Just add panels?

As for backup, wouldn't that require an isolation/transfer switch? I guess since the powerwall would always be connected to the home's internal wiring (service panel) it wouldn't be a transfer switch per se, but there does need to be a disconnect to the utility, no?
 
LTLFTcomposite said:
So with powerwall 2.0 it sounds like a much more integrated solution. Just add panels?

As for backup, wouldn't that require an isolation/transfer switch? I guess since the powerwall would always be connected to the home's internal wiring (service panel) it wouldn't be a transfer switch per se, but there does need to be a disconnect to the utility, no?

Anytime there is power generation connected to the grid there must be a cut-off switch. You can not have solar or other power sent back through the grid if the power company shuts power down to do maintenance. This switch is included with the powerwall.

Several years ago the utility company shut down our solar (switch box next to the main line into our house) so they could do maintenance in our area. The problem was that when they finished no one came back to switch it back on. Almost two months later we got a large electric bill and found out the solar was turned off. For a long time we logged into the utility account daily to make sure our solar was sending power to the grid. Lesson Learned.
 
Back
Top