Range Chart

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msandeep said:
BrockWI said:
It would be difficult to make a chart for average speed, there are so many variables. For example you could be on a country winding road slowly accelerating from 20 to 40 with no braking with an average of 30 compared to running surface streets with traffic lights running from heavy breaking and acceleration to 45 mph with an average of 30. When our car was new I tried to watch the average speed and somehow compare it to miles / kwh and it was all over the place depending on where and how my wife drove.

My speed is mostly constant. Out of about 80 minute roundtrip drive, the maximum speed is 65 mph for about 10 mins at most. Remaining is mostly 25 to 30 mph. Typical Bay Area freeway speeds during commute hours in carpool lane.

During drives like this, you would merely use the average miles/kWh that is generated. That's not predicting range, since you won't know wht the average was until the trip is over.
 
LOVE the range chart. Now a permanent fixture in my LEAF.

Now that Winter is upon us, I wanted to clarify the adjustments suggested for temperature. The battery does not accept as many kWh at low temps. But I wanted to clarify/point out, two things:

1) We are talking the battery temp. not the air temp. And the only way to get a read on that is with a CAN device (other than the rather inadequate temp bars).

2) Given #1, let's just compare the charted/measured 70F with 30F. A 40F degree variation, so we're potentially adjusting range expectation by 10%. All temps stated in terms of the battery pack for this discussion.

Clearly if I charge at 70 and drive at 70, no adjustment is made.
If I charge at 30 and drive at 30, reduce expected range by 10%
But what if I charge at 70 and then drive at 30?? I realize it would typically take days for the battery to cool that far. But in MN, all it would take is backing out of a warm garage into the deep freeze and you could probably get their over night if it is below zero(F).

So, is the predicted range reduction due to the charge? Or to inefficiencies while driving?
 
kikngas said:
LOVE the range chart. Now a permanent fixture in my LEAF.

Now that Winter is upon us, I wanted to clarify the adjustments suggested for temperature. The battery does not accept as many kWh at low temps. But I wanted to clarify/point out, two things:

1) We are talking the battery temp. not the air temp. And the only way to get a read on that is with a CAN device (other than the rather inadequate temp bars).


If the car sits out overnight, then the battery temperature is ambient. Otherwise, lacking a LEAF Spy device, you'd have to guess.



So, is the predicted range reduction due to the charge? Or to inefficiencies while driving?


Both. You will lose 10% battery capacity with 30F battery.

Plus, you will lose efficiency by pushing through snow or otherwise "contanimated" with standing water, snow, cold tires, more dense cold air, et al. How much you lose here is so variable that it would be nearly impossible to predict expect for you direct observations.

Good luck.
 
TonyWilliams said:
Is there an alternate location for these? I'm hitting this right now on those...
"Error (509)
This account's public links are generating too much traffic and have been temporarily disabled! "
 
cwerdna said:
TonyWilliams said:
Is there an alternate location for these? I'm hitting this right now on those...
"Error (509)
This account's public links are generating too much traffic and have been temporarily disabled! "
Perhaps try using Google Drive.
 
cwerdna said:
TonyWilliams said:
If your LEAF is missing any of the capacity bar segments of the 12 total capacity segments (number 14 in the photo above), use the appropriate chart:

Here are the links on Dropbox - no downloading hassle:

Use this 100% chart for a factory new battery.

Use this 75% chart for a battery that has 10 of 12 capacity bar segments.

Use this 63% chart for a battery that has 8 of 12 capacity bar segments.
Is there an alternate location for these? I'm hitting this right now on those...
"Error (509)
This account's public links are generating too much traffic and have been temporarily disabled! "

If it helps any I posted the 10 bar version at http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=76973&d=1428176594" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; so you can grab it there. The 12 bar and 8 bar versions are on the first page of this thread but I'll link them again here

http://i565.photobucket.com/albums/ss92/TonyWilliams/Nissan%20LEAF/LEAFrangeChartVersion7F.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://i565.photobucket.com/albums/ss92/TonyWilliams/Nissan%20LEAF/LEAFrangeChartVersion7G63.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I know you personally have been around long enough to figure it out on your own but for the newer drivers:

I doubt the 11 bar and 9 bar versions would be much help if you can't get by using one of the 8 bar or 10 bar versions.

If you drive aggressively or have cold or hot temps to deal with grab the version for 1 less bar than you have and you'll be auto corrected for that.

If you are a hyper miler pick your favorite with more or same number of bars and know that you might beat it.
 
> Huh, far too complicated for the average driver? It's just a table. Are we assuming that the average driver can't read a simple table?

I have an honours degree in High Energy Nuclear Physics. I also have 64 years on my "ageometer". This probably makes me slightly below par.
I struggled to understand the table at first. I get distracted easily by things I don't comprehend. The problems I encountered were:

1. The left column is titled "Battery Gids". What's a "Gid"?
2. The numbers below the kWh/mile columns are presumably miles?
3. The tiny numbers to the right of the miles seem to be footnote references, but there are higher numbers than footnotes to match. The numbers appear only in the first chart and a few in the third. Why the inconsistency?

Don't get me wrong, this chart was exactly what I was looking for!

I got the numbers I needed (I was interested in how speed alone affects range, all else being constant). I've noticed that speeds below 30mph also exact a range penalty. In my Honda Hazz (Hybrid) and Gas-guzzler motorhome this is usually because I don't get into top gear until 40-50mph.

It would be interesting to know the speed at which you reach the minimum kWh/mile ... that seems to lie below 30mph, but probably not much lower from my observations.

Are there any tips on reducing kWh/mile when climbing hills? The cyclist rule is "never get off and walk". The NASA rule is "Go as fast as you can". The Leaf lies somewhere between these extremes.
 
Swifty said:
1. The left column is titled "Battery Gids". What's a "Gid"?
http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=17538" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Swifty said:
2. The numbers below the kWh/mile columns are presumably miles?
Yes.
Swifty said:
3. The tiny numbers to the right of the miles seem to be footnote references, but there are higher numbers than footnotes to match. The numbers appear only in the first chart and a few in the third. Why the inconsistency?
I believe those numbers are the deltas between the mile values. Example: 132-125 = 7. 62 - 59 = 3.

Part of the motivation of this chart was when it was produced was that '11 and '12 Leaf had no % state of charge display AT ALL. All you had were the 12 not granular enough fuel bars (you couldn't tell if you were at the top, middle or bottom of a bar) and the crap GOM (guess-o-meter) "distance to empty". But you did have instrumentation like miles/kWh and hh:mm to charge. The discovery of the gid allowed people to use that as a proxy for % SoC. And, the max gid value of a car at full charge tended to go down, as the battery degraded.

http://www.edmunds.com/nissan/leaf/2011/long-term-road-test/2011-nissan-leaf-driving-it-to-the-bitter-end.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; yielded 132.0 miles @ 35 mph.

'13+ Leaf got a % SoC display.

IIRC, Tony Williams himself held up his chart at the December 2011 meeting at Google (Leaf's Chief Vehicle Engineer, Kadota-san was present). See http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=155461#p155461" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; for the beginning of the discussion on that meeting. I was one of the many folks there.

And a lot discussion about the crappiness of the GOM, what was wrong with it, the need for a % SoC meter, etc. happened at that meeting. Nissan got the message.
 
cwerdna said:
And a lot discussion about the crappiness of the GOM, what was wrong with it, the need for a % SoC meter, etc. happened at that meeting. Nissan got the message.
<Looks for a %SoC meter on his 2012..> Hmm..
<Looks for firmware upgrade to add that..> hmmm

Well, they kind of got the message.. ;-)
I'm OK with LeafSpy Pro now, and I've seen where Nissan says they "couldn't" add it on the 11s/12s, but I don't buy that. ;-)

desiv
 
Thanks for all the information and pointers. I'm content with the information I get from my 2011 Leaf. I couldn't base journeys on an accurate measure of charge or range when the charging point I'm aiming for might be offline when I get there. So, I'll always try to charge at the first charging point I come to whilst I still have two charging points in range. The infrastructure is improving rapidly, so maybe I'll feel capable of of going further between recharges in future.

Presumably, the extra range that I get from charging is proportional to the time I spend charging (back up to 80%), so if I charge twice as often then each charge will take roughly half the time. The first charging point I come to on most of my journeys is about 30-35 miles from home. Charging back to 80% there takes about 20 minutes. Like an F1 pit-stop, I lose a small amount of time on the in-run and the out-run, but that's no more than 5 minutes added on to my charging time. So far, I've never encountered a busy charging point, and all of the points I've used recently have been doubled-up, so contention should be even rarer until EV's become more common.

I rarely see another Leaf whilst driving short local journeys, but a couple of weeks ago I went to the local town and saw three other Leafs. The four of us came close to being in a convoy along the High Street. And whilst out delivering prescriptions, I talked to one Leaf owner, and another with the e-NV200 van.
 
Great chart. Can I work the range like an ICE vehicle? eg: in my ICE I have instantaneous fuel use, l /1OOkm if I get 5l/100km I know I can go 150 km(1/4 tank). So can I see instantaneous wh/km? Then if l drive and get the low wh/km I should be able to judge my range pretty accurately.I always use the trip meter to judge the range as well. If I Can go 150 km on a charge, and I have 1/2 energy left and gone 75km, then I know I am on target. If l have done 30km on 1/2 energy left then know lam going to most likely not get 150km.
The charge bars and capacity bars make perfect sense. 12 bars of both, best case. Left hand bars go down that is the amount of range. Right hand bars go down, that is a drop in total overall range/maximum range.
 
JCPanosh said:
Great chart. Can I work the range like an ICE vehicle? eg: in my ICE I have instantaneous fuel use, l /1OOkm if I get 5l/100km I know I can go 150 km(1/4 tank). So can I see instantaneous wh/km? Then if l drive and get the low wh/km I should be able to judge my range pretty accurately.I always use the trip meter to judge the range as well. If I Can go 150 km on a charge, and I have 1/2 energy left and gone 75km, then I know I am on target. If l have done 30km on 1/2 energy left then know lam going to most likely not get 150km.
The charge bars and capacity bars make perfect sense. 12 bars of both, best case. Left hand bars go down that is the amount of range. Right hand bars go down, that is a drop in total overall range/maximum range.
There is an instantaneous meter in the display behind the steering wheel and also in the navigation (if equipped).

Calculating instantaneous fuel use is easy in the Leaf (pardon my use of miles, just sub in km instead):

[Instantaneous miles/kWh] = [speed miles/hour] / [power kW] <==you may need the nav system to see the instantaneous power consumption.

For example if you are going 40 miles per hour and the total power that the Leaf is consuming is 10 kW, then the instantaneous would be:

(40 mph) / (10 kW) = 4 miles / kWh (6.4 km/kWh)

If you want kWh / mile, just invert the above. You will find that the Leaf's instantaneous readout lies at very low speeds (to make us feel better?).

I have found that slow speeds and very gradual acceleration and deceleration GREATLY increase efficiency and thus maximum range. On the highway I get about 3.2 miles/kWh (5.1 km/kWh) but I get more than 5 miles/kWh (8.0 km/kWh) on surface streets. Getting 50% more range per charge helps reduce my range anxiety...

Now getting an accurate estimate of your remaining energy will require that you connect some 3rd party equipment to read it from the on board computer. I just assume that my battery is roughly 20 kWh and use the %-battery remaining meter to get a rough estimate.
 
Is anyone else getting actual mileage disturbingly worse than expected?

Short story in bullet points (I tried being more verbose but I ended up with unnecessary venting about defective DCQC's along my route; figured I'd trim that fat before posting so here's the ultra short version):

- I bought a used 2012 LEAF SL last May; 12 bars, SOH:~85%, Hx:~70%
- first long trip, March 6th, clear weather, light side wind, ~40F, intended journey was 107 miles each way
- highway speed as ~60mph; backroads ~30mph; total journey was split 70/30 in favor of highway driving
- effective range from 100% observed at ~42 miles (reached LBW at ~37 miles)
- effective range from ~80% observed at ~30 miles (reached LBW at ~25 miles; stretched to 35 miles on one leg of trip but hit turtle mode)
- area is near sea level (Boston MA) and weather was cold but otherwise clear (no rain, no wipers, lights only used on return trip and had no measurable impact on range)
- cabin heater was off 100% of drive; steering and seat warmers were on ~50% of drive;
- light-weight occupancy: one adult and one toddler (2.5 years old; suffered through the crappy experience like a champ)
- tires at 40psi (cold)
- [EDIT TO ADD] I reset the trip and mi/kwh meters each time I charged, but carwings reports that I got 3.6 mi/kwh that day, for 234 miles of driving (had to go out of my way to find a couple chargers). carwings also reports 7.2 hours of driving time, so we can calc average speed at 32.5mph. that might suggest i spent more time on backroads than previously suggested (above)
-> overall the above seems indicative of a degraded battery with ~60% capacity remaining (taking into account temp)

I fear my battery was somehow reset by the dealership before I bought it and that it is actually significantly degraded. Would other more 'mature' EV drivers be alarmed by range performance as described above?

the above was not expected. I had planned to drive ~55 miles between DCQCs and so have 1 charge on the first leg and 2 chargers on the return trip. I planned for 1 hour at each charger. The 214 round trip drive would normally take ~4 hours but took my nearly 12 hours in my LEAF due to frequent charging and occasional need to use level 2 chargers (where I can only pull 3.3kw). In the end I required three charging sessions (minimum) on each leg of the trip (107 miles per leg), not accounting for the extra miles spent trying to find DCQCs which weren't out of order or parked in by dealership ICE inventory (how frustrating: for what it's worth I suggest others avoid Coastal Nissan in Norwood MA).

-bit
 
Perhaps you could explain what your expectations were that were disturbingly unmet. Are you clear on the tiny capacity bars as compared to the long bars that indicate the % charge in the battery? In other words, when you 100% charge a degraded battery you will see all 12 long bars, regardless of how degraded it is. But the short ends of the bars indicate the current aged capacity of the battery and gradually reduce over time.
 
bitflung said:
- I bought a used 2012 LEAF SL last May; 12 bars, SOH:~85%, Hx:~70%

at 85% SOH the range chart you want is for a 11 bar leaf, use

https://www.dropbox.com/s/sfufez3dcdvrvu9/LEAFrangeChartVersion7G82.pdf?dl=0

You might not have lost that 12th bar yet but you are right on the edge of doing so and will do it this summer.
 
kikngas said:
Perhaps you could explain what your expectations were that were disturbingly unmet.
My expectations were to have a range of 60+ miles on a full (100%) charge, and 50+ miles on an 80% charge in the conditions described.
Instead I realized ~40 miles of range on a full charge and ~30 miles on an 80% charge.
My expectations were 1.5x greater than observed performance despite being based on observed performance for other drivers.

a 1.5x differential is disturbing to me.

kikngas said:
Are you clear on the tiny capacity bars as compared to the long bars that indicate the % charge in the battery? In other words, when you 100% charge a degraded battery you will see all 12 long bars, regardless of how degraded it is. But the short ends of the bars indicate the current aged capacity of the battery and gradually reduce over time.
yes this is perfectly clear to me. i have not yet lost any "short end bars" as you put it. with a SOH at 85% this should be clear, though I do realize (as @dhanson865 mentions) that i'll soon lose my first bar.

my fear is that the reported metrics are skewed; i've heard horror stories of other used LEAF buyers receiving vehicles with purposefully altered battery metrics (which degraded quickly after purchase to reflect actual battery state). I bought mine used last may (May 2015) and haven't lost a bar yet, but there have been oddities:
- range has been lower than expected
- car reported zero QCs on leaf spy but it seems unlikely someone would have NEVER tried it even once
- first few QC events that I performed were NOT RECORDED in the car (leaf spy showed zero QC's even after my third QC). car started recording QC's only after QC'ing while leaf spy was active (active during the charge session itself as a debug effort to be sent to the dev)

Overall I'm now worried that my LEAF is somehow tampered with and has a dud battery. I posted this in an effort to see if other, more "mature" LEAF drivers, would be concerned with the same observations. If you bought a LEAF for your spouse/child/whomever and personally observed what I've described, would you consider it "normal" ro would you be concerned that these numbers might not add up properly?
 
dhanson865 said:
bitflung said:
- I bought a used 2012 LEAF SL last May; 12 bars, SOH:~85%, Hx:~70%

at 85% SOH the range chart you want is for a 11 bar leaf, use

https://www.dropbox.com/s/sfufez3dcdvrvu9/LEAFrangeChartVersion7G82.pdf?dl=0

You might not have lost that 12th bar yet but you are right on the edge of doing so and will do it this summer.

Thanks for that. Yeah, I realize that I'll lose a bar soon. Losing that bar won't change the actual performance of the car much though (since the bars reflect actual capacity and don't themselves limit functionality). In the current state my car seems to be performing as though it has a more significantly degraded battery than is being reported.

This morning, fresh off the level 1 charger in my garage with a 100% SOC, Leaf Spy reported that I've got 223 GIDs. This seems to represent ~80% SOH (assuming a starting point of 280 GIDs). The low Hx (now at 70.53%) also concerns me as most everyone I've seen report a value here has indicated a much higher value (and I understand this is likely related to internal resistance, so a fraction of every kwh I pull from the pack is being lost before it reaches the motor. I doubt Hx is so simple as to represent that only 70% of the power reaches my motor, but it does suggest one possible manner by which my battery might be under performing).

In the end I'm trying to figure out:
a. would any of the observed cause others to be concerned if this were THEIR vehicle?
b. if so, would taking the car in for an exhaustive battery test perhaps be meaningful?
c. if the battery is under performing (as per popular opinion) but not meeting criteria for warranty replacement I might consider purchasing a replacement
d. if the battery is under performing and was likely tampered with by the dealership I purchased from and is also not meeting criteria for warrant replacement; i'll likely pony up a $1k deposit for a tesla model 3 and prepare to dump this car in ~2 years when the model 3 is likely to be delivered

I'm somewhat a noob when it comes to the LEAF itself, but i'm a rather technical person. i'm a computer engineer, i've driven BHEVs since 2001 (bought a 2001 Honda Insight back then; best car buying decision i ever made), and i'm interested enough in the subject matter to pay attention. overall i'm not ready to jump to any conclusions (i don't KNOW that my battery is under performing with respect to other folks' experiences) but i've observed enough to feel a need to raise this question and dig deeper.

so would YOU expect more than ~40 miles of range on a 100% charge given the above conditions? or would you hit ~40 miles, shuffle off to a charger, and think, "yup, seems about right"?
 
bitflung said:
- car reported zero QCs on leaf spy but it seems unlikely someone would have NEVER tried it even once
- first few QC events that I performed were NOT RECORDED in the car (leaf spy showed zero QC's even after my third QC). car started recording QC's only after QC'ing while leaf spy was active (active during the charge session itself as a debug effort to be sent to the dev)

Overall I'm now worried that my LEAF is somehow tampered with and has a dud battery. I posted this in an effort to see if other, more "mature" LEAF drivers, would be concerned with the same observations. If you bought a LEAF for your spouse/child/whomever and personally observed what I've described, would you consider it "normal" ro would you be concerned that these numbers might not add up properly?
In regards to QCs, both my new purchased '13 and recently purchased '12 reported no QCs, I know my '13 has never had a QC but I was very surprised the '12 which according to Carfax came from the LA area of CA wouldn't have had some......when I purchased the '12 I put my '13 on the dealers QC station for a bit over 1/2hr, it went to 100% and after that it reported a QC so I believe LeafSpy is reporting QCs, at least for my '13. Next time I'm at the dealer that had the QC station(rare as hens teeth around here) I'll have to try it and see if LeafSpy recorded it.
I'm also having nowhere near the rang on my '12 as my '13 but it's somewhat understandable since the '12 is missing 2 bars going on 3. I'm rarely using heat but I am getting what you were looking for, ~60 miles @100%(actually it only charges to ~90% SOC before stopping) and ~50 miles stopping charging @80% using the timer. Does you Leaf charge to show 100% SOC? It sounds like mine is somewhat normal for a older battery, that is to not report a 100% SOC.
 
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