Price to retrofit a used 2011-2015 Leaf with a new 30 kWh (or higher) battery?

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TaylorSFGuy said:
Let's give Nissan some time to work this out before complaining. They aren't selling the cars with a 30kwh battery through to consumers yet.

Hi TaylorSFGuy:

I think it's important to recognize that historically a certain amount of speaking up seems to have been required to help Nissan understand some customers' points of view a bit better and sooner.

TaylorSFGuy said:
It is unreasonable to expect them to have focused on replacement batteries at this point. I expect something to happen. Those of us that purchased 2011 models expected that a larger replacement battery would be an option in the future. At least I did. It may not be in time for me at less than 55% usable battery capacity.

Yes, it seems at first glance understandable to ask us to wait a few months, until Nissan can get its sea legs with sales of the new 30 kWh option, until we start clamoring for more answers on a 30 kWh retrofit. However, if we consider how long it took to get a higher-range option, the lack of competitive choice in the US market (until recently) during that time period, our experience with the importance of communicating customer points to Nissan, and the ticking clock of leases coming up, I think it helps explain why some of us would ask the questions sooner rather than later.

For me, I won't say it won't be in time, but probably not. Two things have changed for me:

1) 24 kWh no longer an option, even as a compromise or just for the adventure of being involved Exacerbated by the lack of DCQC or even L2 along some of my main driving routes.
2) New vehicle (whether leasing or buying) less attractive as an option - expensive to pay the depreciation on a new vehicle. I may have to settle for something like a used C-Max Energi PHEV (has more legroom than a Volt and used ones can be had for less than $10k-$15k if I wait carefully and just drive my not-great existing gasoline car until I am ready to buy back into PEV.

TaylorSFGuy said:
Many of you are commenting on a situation that is likely years away from being a necessity.

I think we should give Nissan some time to work through this and develop a plan. As time goes by they have an interest to be in the replacement battery business.
 
TaylorSFGuy said:
I think we should give Nissan some time to work through this and develop a plan. As time goes by they have an interest to be in the replacement battery business.

We also should send signals to Nissan about what we want. What about a pool of how may people that lease a 2014-2015 Leaf will buy the at the end of the lease if a larger replacement battery is promised to be made available in 1-2 years at certain price:

1 - Will not buy
2 - Will buy if a 40KWh or lager battery is available at $6000 or less
3 - Will buy if a 40KWh or lager battery is available at $8000 or less
4 - Will buy if a 40KWh or lager battery is available at $10000 or less
5 - Will buy if a 60KWh or lager battery is available at $8000 or less
6 - Will buy if a 60KWh or lager battery is available at $10000 or less
7 - Will buy if a 60KWh or lager battery is available at $12000 or less
 
It would make more sense to upgrade if one had a 6.6 kWh inverter. I believe both the 2011 & 2012 models didn't have that option. I am very willing to lease a 2016 with 30 kWh ... and a 6.6 or better inverter.
 
camasleaf said:
TaylorSFGuy said:
I think we should give Nissan some time to work through this and develop a plan. As time goes by they have an interest to be in the replacement battery business.

We also should send signals to Nissan about what we want. What about a pool of how may people that lease a 2014-2015 Leaf will buy the at the end of the lease if a larger replacement battery is promised to be made available in 1-2 years at certain price:

1 - Will not buy
2 - Will buy if a 40KWh or lager battery is available at $6000 or less
3 - Will buy if a 40KWh or lager battery is available at $8000 or less
4 - Will buy if a 40KWh or lager battery is available at $10000 or less
5 - Will buy if a 60KWh or lager battery is available at $8000 or less
6 - Will buy if a 60KWh or lager battery is available at $10000 or less
7 - Will buy if a 60KWh or lager battery is available at $12000 or less

Agree, a forum poll here might be interesting, but (IMO) would require some revisions.
First, I don't know that it will ever be possible to put higher than 30 kWh into an older Leaf. So, even if the poll wants to explore that possibility, the poll should at least include 30 kWh and a few options as to what some of us would pay for it.
Second, I think it might need to be a poll where a person could choose more than one option? I don't know.
Third, I think it should reflect higher price choices per kWh. For example, if Nissan were to make a 40 kWh Leaf retrofit available today, I think it's possible they might want to bill more than $250 per kWh for the battery and associated equipment and install.

Noting that I think I heard that a reason Nissan is not presently considering the 30 kWh retrofit option is that apparently it is claimed that it would involve more than the battery. Maybe we can get some more information as to how much trouble and expense that might be. Maybe some buyers would be willing to pay it.
 
I like the idea of a poll, and agree we must at least include the 30 kWh pack as an option as it is the only confirmed upgrade (potential) at this point. For me personally, I have a 2015 Leaf with a 3 year lease that ends in Dec. 2017. Thinking about the longer range BEVs that should be available by that time, if Nissan doesn't give me an upgrade option there is very little chance I will buy the Leaf at the end of the lease, unless they discount the residual to a ridiculously low level. And as a double whammy to Nissan, not only will I not buy the Leaf, I will likely make my next BEV anything but a Leaf if they don't offer a battery upgrade path.
 
I am a realist, and do not expect that Nissan will turn my Leaf into a Tesla when my battery ages out... What I would expect would be - a) That for we, the first generation Leaf owners (the real trailblazers in this deal) who took a chance and made Nissan the EV leader, that we should have NO TROUBLE getting a replacement 24KW battery for the next 20 years. 20 years seems to be the standard that a car company should support a vehicle with easily available parts. b) If during that time, more efficient battery technology is available, the PRICE of the 24KW battery should be lowered accordingly (e.g., $2-3k or so). At a low price in the future for the current battery, I would be very glad to keep my Leaf with its stock 24KW battery because the car would still have a great use to me as it is. And finally, c) When battery technology and capacity increases in the future, that we should be able to OPT for a greater capacity battery at the reasonable price of the battery at that time from Nissan.

As a technological savvy person, I followed the evolution of things like cassettes, 8 tracks, cds, computers, and dvds from the beginning. My Leaf is perfectly adequate as it is (for me) because it handles all my transportation needs. Unlike the speed of computers which we must replace to handle the increasing complexity of new software, My leaf will always be useful to me. If I can get my 2015 Leaf to last 20 years and get parts and batteries so that I get 200K miles for the money I spent on it, I will be a HAPPY CAMPER!
 
This article picked up on my Google Alerts today which is kind of interesting.

http://www.torquenews.com/1/company-offers-install-double-batteries-nissan-leaf-increasing-range-160-miles

I did a search here of "Hybrid industries" and for their domain http://hybridindustries.webs.com/ and didn't see anything posted. Maybe I missed it.

While I am not sure I am a fan losing a significant area of the back of the leaf, it does show promise IMO that the secondary market will evolve and give EV owners more options.

I am looking forward to a year from now when some of the members here get their hands on a 2016 pack from a salvage car or similar.
 
lasvegas95 said:
This article picked up on my Google Alerts today which is kind of interesting.

http://www.torquenews.com/1/company-offers-install-double-batteries-nissan-leaf-increasing-range-160-miles

I did a search here of "Hybrid industries" and for their domain http://hybridindustries.webs.com/ and didn't see anything posted. Maybe I missed it.

While I am not sure I am a fan losing a significant area of the back of the leaf, it does show promise IMO that the secondary market will evolve and give EV owners more options.

I am looking forward to a year from now when some of the members here get their hands on a 2016 pack from a salvage car or similar.

I saw this article as well and was curious about it. If true I'd love to know what they did to make it work and how it ties into the system. Does the guessometer show 160? Is there a way to swap depleted banks out instead of just doubling what's there?
 
lasvegas95 said:
This article picked up on my Google Alerts today which is kind of interesting.

http://www.torquenews.com/1/company-offers-install-double-batteries-nissan-leaf-increasing-range-160-miles

I did a search here of "Hybrid industries" and for their domain http://hybridindustries.webs.com/ and didn't see anything posted. Maybe I missed it.

While I am not sure I am a fan losing a significant area of the back of the leaf, it does show promise IMO that the secondary market will evolve and give EV owners more options.

I am looking forward to a year from now when some of the members here get their hands on a 2016 pack from a salvage car or similar.

Yes, agree, this seems worth noting, thanks for pointing it up. I guess up-front I'm skeptical of the quality and such, as are others, but it's good to see folks pressing the matter. ... if Nissan or other OEMs won't provide certain things up-front then they can be provided aftermarket, and it could be argued that the rise of aftermarket vehicle modifications of all sorts (EVSE, battery kWh, etc.) is a sign of maturation in the industry overall.
 
This was my take also. Its a shame to see a plenty functional 2011 (save a bad battery) LEAF from going to a junkyard, simply because the "tech" is worn out. If the factory refuses to upgrade old cars, then its great if an aftermarket source can.

The way I look at it, I have an Acura TL with 160,000 miles on it that is still going strong. The idea that an electric car is worthless and should be junked at 70,000 miles is sad. I hope to see an aftermarket company wade in at some point in the next few years and say, yeah, I can make that battery for $3,000 ! Then, a prefectly good car with a deficient battery will still have a lot of value. IMO, the hard part would be to get the OEM system on the car to deal with anything other than the specific OEM battery that came in the car. These guys seem to have hurdled that obstacle. Now, its economics that prove the next hurdle.

I don't own a Leaf Yet, but I will likely only consider a 2013 with the 6KW charger. It seems more future proof and utilitarian.
 
Right now one can get a 2012 SV with less than 35,000 miles on it for under $7K.
If that car was $12,500 with a came with a brand new 24KW battery, would you buy it?
How about $15,000 with a brand new 30KW battery?

By comparison, 2012 Prius Plugin with under 45,000 miles are listed at $14K to $22K.

A more proactive battery replacement program with in the "coming off lease now owned by Nissan" fleet would raise resale values and make the new cars have a better value outlook. Plus the dealers would probably make a some money on swapping in the batteries and clear the lot of really cheap cars with lots of miles left in them.
 
Yogi62 said:
Right now one can get a 2012 SV with less than 35,000 miles on it for under $7K.
If that car was $12,500 with a came with a brand new 24KW battery, would you buy it?
kW and kWh are very different metrics. It's the same as confusing gallons with horsepower. Think of kW = horsepower, kWh = gallons.

As for what I think you're asking, no. I didn't think an '11 w/brand new battery due to capacity warranty replacement was worth $8,990: http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=435921#p435921 (and my responses later on).
 
cwerdna said:
Yogi62 said:
Right now one can get a 2012 SV with less than 35,000 miles on it for under $7K.
If that car was $12,500 with a came with a brand new 24KW battery, would you buy it?
kW and kWh are very different metrics. It's the same as confusing gallons with horsepower. Think of kW = horsepower, kWh = gallons.

------------------------------------------------

I would like to make a motion for people to stop correcting other members posts when it is clear what they are saying. They did not ask to be corrected, and I see this all the time. Would you correct people's speech when you are face to face with them?

For me, I will say that I love plugging in my "charger" to top off my 24 "KW" battery. Correct that.
 
cwerdna said:
kW and kWh are very different metrics. It's the same as confusing gallons with horsepower. Think of kW = horsepower, kWh = gallons.
powersurge said:
I would like to make a motion for people to stop correcting other members posts when it is clear what they are saying. They did not ask to be corrected, and I see this all the time. Would you correct people's speech when you are face to face with them?
They didn't ask to be corrected since they probably didn't realize they were wrong. Just because you see it "all the time" doesn't make it right. If EV enthusiasts can't get it right and develop good habits (and pass along proper information to others), how can we expect others to get it right?

My job requires that I be detail oriented. Also, if I were on the other end a service advisor, at an EV/PHEV automaker, EVSE/charging station company and someone made complaints to be me and was WAY off in their usage of units, I'd question whether the person knew what they were talking about.

We've had repeatedly correct this one one guy like at http://mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=389321#p389321.

Using incorrect units can get confusing when certain numbers are similar...

The Model S is currently available with 70 and 90 kWh capacity batteries. And, it has 10 kW and 20 kW AC charging options... I recall older Teslas being limited to 90 kW Supercharging.

Most sub-$40K pure BEVs have usable battery capacities in the 20 kWh range. The Gen 1 Volt had ~10.5 kWh usable.

http://www.mybmwi3.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=1750&sid=c8d015bd9b8dfafa982d083d95ce7317#p1750 says a Leaf needs almost 23 kW to maintain 70 mph.

Tesla Model S can have either single 10 kW OBC or dual OBCs for 20 kW charging on 80 amp EVSEs. Leaf has a 24 or 30 kWh capacity battery. BMW/Bosch has a 24 kW SAE Combo DC FC: http://www.bmwicharging.com/BMWiDCFastCharger

Other recent Tesla-powered vehicles (e.g. Rav4 and Mercedes B-Class ED) have a single 10 kW OBC.

Rav4 EV has ~41.8 kWh battery. Many CHAdeMO DC FCs are only 44 kW at max. Wait. Why is it when a Rav4 EV w/JdeMO plugs in that it it can draw up to 48 kW even though it has a 41.8 kWh battery?

See how things can be confusing, if the wrong units are used? There was a great post on MNL (which I can't find) that made light of it and pointed out the importance...

And yes, I would correct someone in face to face conversation if they get it wrong. I'm pretty sure I have before on this very subject.

Take a look at the attached pics. Imagine the confusion if people were talking about charging rates, ramp down, etc. if they routinely mixed up kW and kWh (and had no notes nor pics).
powersurge said:
For me, I will say that I love plugging in my "charger" (possibly EVSE) to top off my 24 "kWh" battery. Correct that.
FYP
 

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Yogi62 said:
Right now one can get a 2012 SV with less than 35,000 miles on it for under $7K.
If that car was $12,500 with a came with a brand new 24KW battery, would you buy it?
How about $15,000 with a brand new 30KW battery?

fwiw:

I guess my answer is that I'd have to think twice before I took out a partial loan to buy a $15k 30 kWh 2012 Leaf. Considerations include that I'd be taking out a loan to buy something that might well have only a 15-24 kWh capacity by the time that I am through paying off the loan. If it's a choice between such a vehicle (I'd probably only get one if it is one of the trims that had a CHAdeMO port) and some of the other competing new BEVs such as a 24 kWh 2016 Leaf, then I take the used 30 kWh retrofitted Leaf..

Yogi62 said:
By comparison, 2012 Prius Plugin with under 45,000 miles are listed at $14K to $22K.

A more proactive battery replacement program with in the "coming off lease now owned by Nissan" fleet would raise resale values and make the new cars have a better value outlook. Plus the dealers would probably make a some money on swapping in the batteries and clear the lot of really cheap cars with lots of miles left in them.

Yes, regardless of the exact price that each of us might pay, you have more or less articulated a point of why I started the thread. Retrofitting the original vehicles with updated batteries would (arguably) be a way for Nissan to keep the older Leafs of higher value and anticipate changes that will happen to the market once dozens and hundreds of thousands of 100+ mile range used BEVs are on the market. Counter-arguments might include that (even without the poor battery thermal management Achilles' Heel) it was always going to be the case that short-range BEVs, such as the original Leaf, were going to have a tough time in the used market as longer-range BEVs inevitably were introduced.
 
powersurge said:
I would like to make a motion for people to stop correcting other members posts when it is clear what they are saying. [...] Would you correct people's speech when you are face to face with them?

cwerdna said:
They didn't ask to be corrected since they probably didn't realize they were wrong. Just because you see it "all the time" doesn't make it right. If EV enthusiasts can't get it right and develop good habits (and pass along proper information to others), how can we expect others to get it right?


Cwerdna is doing a public service and should be lauded as such - I've actually never seen an explanation as elegant as kW = HP and kWH = gallons before.

Disseminating false information, or (even worse) knowingly propagating incorrect usage of technical details is counter-productive. This is a forum for people to learn about Nissan Leafs/EVs - this is exactly the place where it should be corrected. Please don't encourage suppressing speech - especially exactly the sort of speech that CLEARS up misconceptions and ADDS to the pool of [correct, useful] knowledge.

I'll leave it alone now - just amazed/offended someone would go out of their way to admonish someone for providing useful, correct information in favor of misleading/false information.
 
^^^
Thanks! Indeed. And to elaborate more, 1 hp = ~0.746 kW. And, various .gov sites say that 1 gallon of gasoline is equivalent to 33.7 kWh.

Also, in some places, instead of using horsepower to describe how powerful an engine is, they actually use kW or PS (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horsepower#Definitions_of_term and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horsepower#Metric_horsepower).

Example: http://www2.nissan.co.jp/NOTE/e121208g02.html?gradeID=G02&model=NOTE shows kW and PS, but no hp.
 
cwerdna said:
And, various .gov sites say that 1 gallon of gasoline is equivalent to 33.7 kWh.
Just to clarify, that's equivalent in the sense that if a magic engine could completely burn gasoline and convert all the energy released into electricity, it would generate 33.7 kWh/gallon of gas. If you had such a 100% efficient engine, in a Volt, say, and you usually drive at an efficiency of 4 mi/kWh, then you could get 135 mpg. The fact than the Volt gets only 40-50 mpg when run on gas alone (I forget the exact number) shows that real gas engines are more like 30% efficient.

Cheers, Wayne
 
cwerdna said:
^^^
Thanks! Indeed. And to elaborate more, 1 hp = ~0.746 kW. And, various .gov sites say that 1 gallon of gasoline is equivalent to 33.7 kWh. [...]

Hi - also, I find it useful to keep in mind that the 33.7 kWh figure is what I guess might be called a necessary approximation. My understanding (and going from memory) is that a gallon of gasoline when combusted will release anything from (very roughly) under 100,000 btu to more than 130,000 btu. Conversion factor for BTU to kWh is 1 kWh = approx. 3412 btu. Since some government sites indicate 33.7 kWh, this means that an assumption of about 115k btu for a gallon of gasoline is being used, which seems kind of middle ground/reasonable.... I just think it's not necessarily the only one that could have been chosen.
 
jlsoaz said:
My understanding (and going from memory) is that a gallon of gasoline when combusted will release anything from (very roughly) under 100,000 btu to more than 130,000 btu.
Your comment got me curious so I decided to check wikipedia. The fuels commonly called gasoline produce between 111,000 and 115,000 BTUs/gallon, so the range is much tighter. But diesel produces 130,000 BTUs/gallon, while E85 produces only 82,000 BTU/gallon.

Cheers, Wayne
 
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