12v Battery

I forgot to check the "notify me" option on this post and thought wow everyone who is usually so helpful completely blew off my question. Obviously not the case. Thank you all for the useful info, but unless I missed it I'm still unsure of one important bit of info: where should I connect the negative clap from my Schumacher Charger/Tender?

To the negative on the battery?

To the Leaf's unibody?

Or to the "engine block"?

The Leaf battery was completely dead and the only way I could get the car to boot up was to connect the Schumacher positive/positive, negative/engine block. The Leaf lit up and I started it. Then I immediately disconnected the Schumacher and let the car sit running for about an hour with all accessories turned off (including the wipers).

All of this happened several days ago right after my original post. The Leaf has not been driven since then, and the 12v battery appears to be fine.

HOWEVER, this car is one of several Leaf's we purchased as we start up a new company focused on selling used EV's and PHEV's and I do not want to deliver a car with a bad battery to a customer. I just placed an order for the CTEK mentioned in one of the first posts, and we'll use it going forward to test and charge any 12v batteries that are failing.

OFF TOPIC: Later tonight I'm going to post our first three eBay auctions in the vendor section...please take a look and tell us what you think. I'm hoping our website will be up and running sometime next week. We're located in Northern California and indent to focus primarily on that market this year. We'd like to expand to SoCal in 2017.

Thanks again for all the input to my original post.

Good luck;
When dealing with any type of flooded lead acid battery, it is best to make the last ground connection away from the battery vents as they can give off flammable hydrogen gas. On ICE vehicles - probably more of a worry is any gasoline vapors/leaks that can ignite -obviously not a Leaf issue! The ground connection will very likely "spark" when connected - with any type of load on the connection.
(IMHO):
If you want to ensure good batteries on these Leaf's - best to get a load tester and make sure it passes that test with flying colors! Any other test method (voltages, "works good" for a while, etc) can be miss-leading. The charging algorithm seems set up to slowly reduce the seemingly high quality (OEM) battery to a sulfated condition over a few years.

Motarra said:

Thank you all for the useful info, but unless I missed it I'm still unsure of one important bit of info: where should I connect the negative clap from my Schumacher Charger/Tender?

To the negative on the battery?

To the Leaf's unibody?

Or to the "engine block"?

Click to expand...

Definitely NOT to the negative battery terminal. On the MY 2011, there is a point on the top of the DC/DC converter where you should connect, but I'm not clear on where the equivalent point is on the 2013.

Motarra said:

The Leaf battery was completely dead and the only way I could get the car to boot up was to connect the Schumacher positive/positive, negative/engine block. The Leaf lit up and I started it. Then I immediately disconnected the Schumacher and let the car sit running for about an hour with all accessories turned off (including the wipers).

Click to expand...

Unfortunately, that will normally NOT fully charge the 12V battery. Firstly, one hour is not sufficient time to fully charge a 12V battery from dead and secondly, the LEAF may not have remained at a charging voltage that entire time.

Motarra said:

All of this happened several days ago right after my original post. The Leaf has not been driven since then, and the 12v battery appears to be fine.

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I seriously doubt that it is fine. Rather than trying to charge with the LEAF, it is better to charge with the Schumacher charger overnight.

Motarra said:

HOWEVER, this car is one of several Leaf's we purchased as we start up a new company focused on selling used EV's and PHEV's and I do not want to deliver a car with a bad battery to a customer. I just placed an order for the CTEK mentioned in one of the first posts, and we'll use it going forward to test and charge any 12v batteries that are failing.

Click to expand...

Don't wait until they are failing. Go ahead and get all the 12V batteries to a full SOC.

Marktm said:

If you want to ensure good batteries on these Leaf's - best to get a load tester and make sure it passes that test with flying colors! Any other test method (voltages, "works good" for a while, etc) can be miss-leading. The charging algorithm seems set up to slowly reduce the seemingly high quality (OEM) battery to a sulfated condition over a few years.

Click to expand...

Would something like this be a good investment for testing 12 volt battery in Leaf and my ICE vehicle?

http://www.amazon.com/Schumacher-BT-100-Battery-Load-Tester/dp/B000AMBOI0/ref=cm_cr_arp_d_product_top?ie=UTF8

Stoaty said:

Would something like this be a good investment for testing 12 volt battery in Leaf and my ICE vehicle?

http://www.amazon.com/Schumacher-BT-100-Battery-Load-Tester/dp/B000AMBOI0/ref=cm_cr_arp_d_product_top?ie=UTF8

Click to expand...

Before you decide, some research for your specific use would be worthwhile. The Leaf's battery (OEM) is rather small compared to many standard "starting" batteries. In fact, I've researched and not yet found the actual specs on the battery (ie. CCA rating and/or AH rating). I have "load tested" my 3+ year old battery and does appear to have lost capacity (maybe 30% is my best estimate), but I do a longer term, lower amperes test than the BT-100 style tester - and correct for amperes (Peukert - another whole story).

This is a good article that gives alternatives to the "cheap" analogue tester you are looking at:
http://www.carbatterychargerscentral.com/battery-tester-top-7-best-rated-digital-vehicle-multi-battery-testers/

Bottom line - appears this one is a bargain and for periodic home use is likely OK. My only reservation is the 100 amp test may be more than the Leaf's rather small battery should be subjected too (you must get it fully charged before any test). An accurate pulse/digital type may be a better long-term investment.

Marktm said:

This is a good article that gives alternatives to the "cheap" analogue tester you are looking at:
http://www.carbatterychargerscentral.com/battery-tester-top-7-best-rated-digital-vehicle-multi-battery-testers/

Bottom line - appears this one is a bargain and for periodic home use is likely OK. My only reservation is the 100 amp test may be more than the Leaf's rather small battery should be subjected too (you must get it fully charged before any test). An accurate pulse/digital type may be a better long-term investment.

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Very helpful, thanks. The reasons I am interested in a tester (and likely a better one) are:

1) Leaf battery is 5 years old.
2) We take my 2002 Camry (battery is getting long in the tooth) and sometimes my brothers 2010 Prius to the Sierra for several backpacking trips every summer. It would be particularly inconvenient if the battery in one of the cars was dead when we got back to the trailhead.
3) There are a couple of other cars of family members that would be nice to check periodically
4) Don't want to replace batteries unnecessarily

The best (and easiest to use) tester in that list looks like the most expensive one ($295):

http://www.amazon.com/Auto-Meter-SB-300-Intelligent-Handheld/dp/B000A8OJH2/ref=cm_cr_arp_d_product_top?ie=UTF8

Not sure I want to spend that much, but it might be worth it to avoid a problem while we are backpacking (2 more trips this summer) without replacing batteries unnecessarily.

Comments?

Stoaty said:

Not sure I want to spend that much, but it might be worth it to avoid a problem while we are backpacking (2 more trips this summer) without replacing batteries unnecessarily.

Comments?

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Like you, I also don't like to replace batteries prematurely. And getting stranded far from civilization is even worse!

Some thoughts:
- Marktm gave very good advice. Thanks!
- The main enemy of the battery in the LEAF is sulfation. You can easily verify that your LEAF's battery has enough water by shining a stubby flashlight through it from the back. With that done, the question is how badly sulfated is it. Here is the test I do: With the battery in the car and all accessories in place (like ELM 327), charge the 12V battery to full using a good-quality trickle charger. Now let the car sit for 24 hours without opening any doors or the hatch and measure the voltage of the 12V battery with an accurate voltmeter. Here is how I would judge it:

12.7V or above: Your battery is doing well.
12.5 - 12.7V: You have some sulfation, but not a lot. If you have a desulfating trickle charger, use it for a few days to try to recover some capacity.
12.3 - 12.5V: Your battery is pretty sulfated, but you can likely still get some life out of it. Desulfating gets difficult at this point, but you might want to give it a try.
Below 12.3V: You are on the verge of getting stranded somewhere. You battery is badly sulfated and likely will not last much longer.

Again, be sure you do not open any doors during the 24-hour period, especially right before the measurements.

- The above test can be used for any of the other cars to test for sulfation, but those batteries have different needs and likely different problems. The 2002 Camry likely puts low demand on the 12V battery and if it is like my 2003 Honda Civic Hybrid, it likely does an excellent job of keeping the 12V battery charged. Unfortunately, that also means it likely uses up the water in the battery over time. After 5 or more years of use (less in hot climates), you will need to add some distilled water. Just be sure not to overfill it! Unfortunately, many (most?) new lead-acid batteries do not let you check or add water. If that's what you have, then you don't know if your are low on water, or not. That's a problem. And it still needs to start the car, so a load tester is helpful. The cheap one you linked is better than nothing, assuming you check for sulfation and check the water.

If it were me going out with an old battery, tested or not, and I wanted to be sure it started, I would drag along a spare battery or some sort of jump-start box and some jumper cables just to be sure. (If you take a spare, be sure it is secured and that there is no chance of acid spilling. A sealed battery is best.)

RegGuheert said:

The 2002 Camry likely puts low demand on the 12V battery and if it is like my 2003 Honda Civic Hybrid, it likely does an excellent job of keeping the 12V battery charged.

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I rarely use the Camry, but have had it on a battery tender for the last several years when not using it.

Stoaty said:

RegGuheert said:

The 2002 Camry likely puts low demand on the 12V battery and if it is like my 2003 Honda Civic Hybrid, it likely does an excellent job of keeping the 12V battery charged.

Click to expand...

I rarely use the Camry, but have had it on a battery tender for the last several years when not using it.

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The battery can last a very long time when connected to a high-quality battery tender. When was the 12V battery manufactured?

Stoaty said:

The best (and easiest to use) tester in that list looks like the most expensive one ($295):

http://www.amazon.com/Auto-Meter-SB-300-Intelligent-Handheld/dp/B000A8OJH2/ref=cm_cr_arp_d_product_top?ie=UTF8

Not sure I want to spend that much, but it might be worth it to avoid a problem while we are backpacking (2 more trips this summer) without replacing batteries unnecessarily.

Comments?

Click to expand...

If you had a repair shop - it would be the best!. All being considered, I'd be tempted to buy the "cheap" and test or even take your vehicles to Walmart asking if the battery needs replacing? If you don't have one already, I'd buy a good portable jump starter (with at least an 18 ah AGM) and pack it along with you (not the backpacking! :lol: ). I keep one around to start anything that uses a 12 volt battery (motorcycles, garden tractor, generator, car, etc,etc)

Marktm said:

Before you decide, some research for your specific use would be worthwhile. The Leaf's battery (OEM) is rather small compared to many standard "starting" batteries. In fact, I've researched and not yet found the actual specs on the battery (ie. CCA rating and/or AH rating). I have "load tested" my 3+ year old battery and does appear to have lost capacity (maybe 30% is my best estimate), but I do a longer term, lower amperes test than the BT-100 style tester - and correct for amperes (Peukert - another whole story).

Click to expand...

The "stock" 12v Leaf battery is ~40 AHr.
I replaced mine with a 12v LiFePO4 that's ~20 AHr, and I've run it (temporarily) on a 9 AHr battery...so it obviously doesn't take much (the 9 AHr battery just wasn't a good mechanical fit). You can search for a 12v thread (on my name) if you want more info and links to pics.
A nickel's worth of free advice: if there's any doubt, change the 12v battery in your Leaf before it changes you

Marktm said:

If you don't have one already, I'd buy a good portable jump starter (with at least an 18 ah AGM) and pack it along with you (not the backpacking! :lol: ).

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Excellent idea! Worth it to avoid getting stranded at an isolated trailhead, which on some occasions can be several miles down a dirt road. So far we have never had a problem, but our luck may not hold forever.

I thought that long ago, over on the Prius forum, somebody posted that they had strung together AA batteries and used that to get the Prius started in an emergency situation. Obviously not to be done on a daily basis, but a lot easier, and cheaper, if it could be done to carry the AA batteries.

I purchased a lithium ion booster pack to carry on my motorcycle. It is compact, light weight, and holds its charge for a long time. I have actually used it to start V-8 engines a couple of times. I doubt that strings of dry cells (AA or D) would work very well because their internal resistance is too high.

Gerry

GerryAZ said:

I purchased a lithium ion booster pack to carry on my motorcycle. It is compact, light weight, and holds its charge for a long time. I have actually used it to start V-8 engines a couple of times. I doubt that strings of dry cells (AA or D) would work very well because their internal resistance is too high.

Gerry

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If it has served well, how about a link, or brand and model?

I pack a portable charger in the trunk of my Leaf. I actually found it on sale for $48 two months before I bought the car. I needed it one day, after leaving the blue-tooth adapter plugged into the OBD port for a few days, and have carried it around since then. The version I bought now sells for $65, but they have a California/Oregon version that is only $38.

http://smile.amazon.com/Jump-N-Carry-JNC300XL-Ultraportable-Starter-Light/dp/B000XQ9MGE?ie=UTF8&keywords=Jump-N-Carry&qid=1465356262&ref_=sr_1_4&sr=8-4

I have one of these for emergencies. They sometimes go on sale for $30-40, and would start EV's without issues. I've started several ICE's with it also.

http://www.amazon.com/Anker-Portable-Advanced-Protection-Flashlight/dp/B00T2GT9L4?ie=UTF8&keywords=usb%20jump%20start&qid=1465361801&ref_=sr_1_26&sr=8-26

I have an S Leaf. I have upgraded my charging system with a solar panel (Like the "SL") Leaf for $15 bucks...

I mounted this solar panel on all of my 5 cars on the dash board with double sided sticky tape. I either plug it into the cigarette lighter plug that is always "hot".

OR (our Leaf) run the wire through the firewall and hard wire it to the battery with alligator clips (included).

Ive been doing this for the past 20 years, and get 8-10 years on every car battery I own..

http://www.harborfreight.com/15-watt-solar-battery-charger-68692.html

powersurge said:

I have an S Leaf. I have upgraded my charging system with a solar panel (Like the "SL") Leaf for $15 bucks...

I mounted this solar panel on all of my 5 cars on the dash board with double sided sticky tape. I either plug it into the cigarette lighter plug that is always "hot".

OR (our Leaf) run the wire through the firewall and hard wire it to the battery with alligator clips (included).

Ive been doing this for the past 20 years, and get 8-10 years on every car battery I own..

http://www.harborfreight.com/15-watt-solar-battery-charger-68692.html

Click to expand...

I've thought of something similar but I wonder how much 125ma(if my math is correct) would really help keep the 12v battery charged. I mean most "trickle" or battery maintainers output ~1a, almost 10x what that solar cell outputs at I'd assume full sunlight. Add shade or overcast days to the mix and I'd really wonder how much good it would be....not saying it would hurt and in theory using the sun to keep the 12v battery charged sounds great, just not sure how much it would help. Kind of like the stock solar cell on the SL models, from everything I've read people seem to think it's more for looks than anything else.

On your Leaf did you mount it to your hood? Since you said you ran it through the firewall I'm assuming you mounted it outside, just wondering where you ended up mounting it.

Now if Nissan offered the option of a whole roof solar cell I bet that would have potentially enough surface area to equal something like a trickle charger but unfortunately they don't and due to the curvature of the roof I can't see how installing a aftermarket solar cell would look at all good.

I connected my Battery Tender 1.25a charger leads to the 12v battery, ran the wire through the front charging port.

First time I charged (w/o charging main battery), mid-day, full sun, 90f ambient, charger ran for 6 hours before it showed full.

Drove the car yesterday, mostly highway, 76 miles, 90f ambient, A/C set to 75f, radio on.

Battery tender (simultaneously with main battery) has been charging (overnight) now for 12 hours, 70f ambient, showing 80% charged.

Shouldn't the highway use (probably 55 miles) have kept the 12v battery fully charged? Thoughts?

Ed in Ft. Worth, TX