2013 Leaf bar loss.

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I was just about to post the same thing. For an early '13 pack to keep all 12 bars in a hot climate for that long would be amazing enough, but for it to then drop three bars quickly? Fishy, unless the original owner kept it in an air-conditioned garage and the second parks it outside...
 
cwerdna said:
Hmmm... I wouldn't be surprised if yours is another car that had its BMS/LBC reset by some unsavory person. It's possible that it didn't have all 12 CBs at lease return.

If that occurred, can the true SOH be found within LeafSpy? Or would the reset be tricking LeafSpy too?
 
csites said:
... Or would the reset be tricking LeafSpy too?
Yes.
I think SOH would be wrong for a fairly long time.
Multiple weeks. Maybe 4 to 8 weeks like it is following P3227 software update.

drees stated previously he thought Hx would drop fairly quickly:

drees said:
...
Well, it usually doesn't take much driving to get the Hx value to drop if the BMC was reset. A few test drives should be enough to bring it down.

If P3227 was done shortly before you got the LEAF that can also cause bad readings. P3227 caused my SOH to jump from 64% up to 76%.
 
csites said:
cwerdna said:
Hmmm... I wouldn't be surprised if yours is another car that had its BMS/LBC reset by some unsavory person. It's possible that it didn't have all 12 CBs at lease return.

If that occurred, can the true SOH be found within LeafSpy? Or would the reset be tricking LeafSpy too?

the reset will make SOH go up but AHr will be accurate after a full discharge / full charge cycle. Just drive to Very Low Battery Warning then charge to 100% and the next day you should know the AHr.

If the AHr and bars don't agree roughly with this table it was reset.

Loss of bar 12 - between 53.75 AHr and 56 AHr
Loss of bar 11 - between 49.75 AHr and 52 AHr
Loss of bar 10 - between 45.75 AHr and 48 AHr
Loss of bar 9 - between 41.75 AHr and 44 AHr
 
dhanson865 said:
...
the reset will make SOH go up but AHr will be accurate after a full discharge / full charge cycle. Just drive to Very Low Battery Warning then charge to 100% and the next day you should know the AHr.
...
I do not believe that is correct.

Several years back TickTock's dealer cleared his long term capacity loss data twice.
He posted his curves.
They did not return to normal very quickly.

They were very slow to return to normal, just like my AHr was following P3227.

If anything returns to normal fairly quickly it is probably Hx as drees speculated, since that is a function of electrical conductivity.
The LEAF can probably measure and adjust that parameter fairly quickly.

The BMS calculation of AHr is likely much more involved.
 
niided said:
First post but have been lurking for awhile here and other forums . I just registered so I can share history of my 2013 S.

Car is on Oahu, Hawaii.

The original owner took delivery on Oahu 5/2013. Manufactured 3/2013 .

I bought used 01/2015 as a lease return w/all 12 capacity bars @ 20,000 mi. Original owner turned in for 2015 leaf.

I have lost 3 bars within the last year. 3rd bar drop middle of August. Car now has 24,000 mi,

I just purchased Spy Leaf Pro, and my readings as of today;

AHr= 45.06

SOH- 68%

I charged to 100% and my SOC = 93.9 %

14.6 KWh

54.5 miles available @ 4.0 miles/kwh

188 GIDS

I enjoy driving the Leaf. Hopefully qualify for battery replacement by end of warranty term 5/2018. I will then continue driving the Leaf until

new battery falls below 70 %. No need for a larger capacity EV as this one suits us fine. May consider buying a 2016 Leaf when the 2017

higher capacity leafs come out. Maybe able to find terrific deals on 2016's.

Also have 2004 Mini Cooper S that serves as our back up if needed.

your story smells a bit fishy... I would check out the blogs below. see what you think

as far as resets; I think part of it has to do with how much delta has to be recovered. I seem to remember anywhere from 3-6 weeks. nothing even resembling a few days though...

http://daveinolywa.blogspot.com/2014/11/buyers-beware-this-is-must-read.html

http://daveinolywa.blogspot.com/2014/12/update-saga-of-vin-222-resolved.html
 
I checked mine again yesterday. Charged to 100%, Leaf Spy showed SOC at 92.7%.
GIDs=181 AHr=43.92 SOH=67% Hx=60.46% odo=24,065 miles QC=4 L1/L2=1701
https://1drv.ms/f/s!AocGc-txowvahNcjvLr4gVLrtWpP7w

The vehicle was manufactured in January 2013, spent it first two years in Georgia, was auctioned after lease return and brought to Las Vegas. I got it in March 2015. It dropped the first bar in October 2015, and the second bar in June 2016.

Jun 24, 2016 - AHr=47.74, SOH=73%, Hx=66.57%, odo=23,745 miles, QC=4 L1/L2=1569
Apr 24, 2016 - AHr=48.58, SOH=74%, Hx=68.12%, odo=23,323 miles, QC=4 L1/L2=1478
Feb 23, 2016 - AHr=50.11, SOH=76%, Hx=70.96%, odo=22,874 miles, QC=4 L1/L2=1393
Dec 30, 2015 - AHr=51.40, SOH=78%, Hx=73.35%, odo=22,503 miles, QC=4 L1/L2=1302
Oct 11, 2015 - AHr=52.06, SOH=79%, Hx=74.56%, odo=21,536 miles, QC=4 L1/L2=1145
Jul 24, 2015 - AHr=55.14, SOH=84%, Hx=80.29%, odo=19,765 miles, QC=4 L1/L2=926
May 16, 2015 - AHr=57.28, SOH=87%, Hx=84.50%, odo=19,338 miles, QC=4 L1/L2=788
Mar 27, 2015 - AHr=58.57, SOH=89%, Hx=87.04%, odo=18,539 miles, QC=4 L1/L2=701
 
I just ran LeafSpy this evening, after charging the car to 100% (on L-1 as usual) to EQ the pack. Good news, actually. After getting a SOH of 89%, with 58.45AH, in the Spring after a Hot weekend, and then driving it for a Hot Summer, the SOH is now 88%, with 58.01AH and Hx at 87.68. At this rate when I turn the car in, even if it's next May 31, it should still read 12 bars.
 
LeftieBiker said:
I just ran LeafSpy this evening, after charging the car to 100% (on L-1 as usual) to EQ the pack. Good news, actually. After getting a SOH of 89%, with 58.45AH, in the Spring after a Hot weekend, and then driving it for a Hot Summer, the SOH is now 88%, with 58.01AH and Hx at 87.68. At this rate when I turn the car in, even if it's next May 31, it should still read 12 bars.

you are pretty close to my numbers but I only have 12 weeks left on my lease and 1900 miles. gonna be a tight fit I think
 
I tried to read a bunch of the posts in this thread but didn't get through them all, so I apologize if this has been addressed already.

I bought my 2013 Leaf in July of 2015 with about 16000 miles on it. I live in Phoenix but the car came from the San Francisco (previous owner didn't clear their home address out of the GPS) with 12 bars. I figured the car would have a rough time adjusting to the Phoenix heat but what I saw was some pretty serious battery degradation.

I drive about 55mi a day so when I first got the car I was charging to 80% (read that was good for the battery) but running the AC in July and August on highway home was using more juice and left battery really low so I quickly switched to 100% charge nightly. The car is in my garage and charges during the middle of the night using a Clipper Creek charger attached to a 30Amp outlet.

I dropped the first bar in November 2015, and the next one in March 2016. I started to get nervous but figured I'd hit 8 bars well before the 5 year warranty was up so at least there was that. Then in August I dropped my third bar and today I dropped the 4th. The range has been a concern the last few weeks as the gauge is typically 65-70miles when I start it in the morning, but with the Summer heat, AC needs, etc I've been driving in Eco mode and still get the low battery warning before I get home.

My questions are:
1) Is this to be expected? I want to make sure there isn't something else going on that's killing the battery faster than the PHX heat typically does.
2) Is now a good time to get a replacement battery? Is there anything on the horizon that would make me want to delay?

I don't have LeafSpy or any technical details of the battery, so I can't share that data.
I appreciate the knowledge on this board and your advice.
 
Look at the build date on the driver's side door jamb label. You probably have the misfortune to have bought a Leaf built Jan-March of 2013, with what appears to be the old battery chemistry.
 
LeftieBiker said:
Look at the build date on the driver's side door jamb label. You probably have the misfortune to have bought a Leaf built Jan-March of 2013, with what appears to be the old battery chemistry.
It was manufactured in March of 2013 and delivered in April.

I've read good things about the lizard batteries holding up in Phoenix so Im hopeful that the new one will do better.
 
MikeMilzz said:
LeftieBiker said:
Look at the build date on the driver's side door jamb label. You probably have the misfortune to have bought a Leaf built Jan-March of 2013, with what appears to be the old battery chemistry.
It was manufactured in March of 2013 and delivered in April.

I've read good things about the lizard batteries holding up in Phoenix so Im hopeful that the new one will do better.

There seem to be mixed reviews of the 2015+ Lizard pack in hot climates. If you mean the post-March2013 pack, that is probably also better. Your car isn't likely to do better than a 2011 Leaf pack.
 
MikeMilzz said:
I tried to read a bunch of the posts in this thread but didn't get through them all, so I apologize if this has been addressed already.

I bought my 2013 Leaf in July of 2015 with about 16000 miles on it. I live in Phoenix but the car came from the San Francisco (previous owner didn't clear their home address out of the GPS) with 12 bars. I figured the car would have a rough time adjusting to the Phoenix heat but what I saw was some pretty serious battery degradation.

I drive about 55mi a day so when I first got the car I was charging to 80% (read that was good for the battery) but running the AC in July and August on highway home was using more juice and left battery really low so I quickly switched to 100% charge nightly. The car is in my garage and charges during the middle of the night using a Clipper Creek charger attached to a 30Amp outlet.

I dropped the first bar in November 2015, and the next one in March 2016. I started to get nervous but figured I'd hit 8 bars well before the 5 year warranty was up so at least there was that. Then in August I dropped my third bar and today I dropped the 4th. The range has been a concern the last few weeks as the gauge is typically 65-70miles when I start it in the morning, but with the Summer heat, AC needs, etc I've been driving in Eco mode and still get the low battery warning before I get home.

My questions are:
1) Is this to be expected? I want to make sure there isn't something else going on that's killing the battery faster than the PHX heat typically does.
2) Is now a good time to get a replacement battery? Is there anything on the horizon that would make me want to delay?

I don't have LeafSpy or any technical details of the battery, so I can't share that data.
I appreciate the knowledge on this board and your advice.

*I don't think there is a more misleading statement than that "80%" You drive waaaay more than enough to charge to 100%. The key is minimzing the time at 100% AND at very low SOC. you can mess with timers but I found the easiest way is to plug in when I go to bed. FYI; not using timers reduces 12 volt battery strain

*If I freaked out every time I was 10 miles from home when Low battery warning came on, I would have hit the funny house over 5 years ago.

*get LEAF Spy. it will tell you within a mile or two how far you can really go.

*when driving that far, it really sucks to go slower but go slower. I travel EVERY day to my client's location and some destinations simply don't have convenient charging options. I much rather drive at 60 mph (which is the MAXIMUM speed limit anyway...) and not have to stop than stop somewhere which I used to do but realized its a 10 min detour from my route for 10 mins of charging which dependent on traffic could cause me to be 25-45 mins later getting home. Driving 55 meant getting home 10 mins later...


your choice
 
DaveinOlyWA said:
hmmwv said:
I purchased mine certified preowned about 14 months ago with 67.36 AHr, 100% SOH (18600 miles), it dropped down to about 64 AHr by March this year, and then the degradation just accelerated and now I'm down to 59.01 AHr, 90% SOH. I'm at 31740 miles with 24 QC and 1377 L1/L2 charges. Round trip to work is about 36 miles, mostly highway driving at 55-60mph, I charge at home to 80% on L2 and plug in at work on L1 during the day that may charge to about 90%, I rarely charge to 100%. I think our early summer heat here in Western Washington might have played a role in the capacity loss.

your car is 3 years old so it will have lost some capacity no matter what. your readings are likely lower due to the fact that you rarely charge to 100%. Top end balancing will inflate the readings up to 2-3 points. If I were you I would not worry about it. you are doing it right. top end balancing is good if you need the range but if you don't, then don't worry about it. Your battery will be happier running in the 20-90% SOC range

Just want to report back, after about 4 months and another 5,000 miles, the AHr virtually stayed the same, so at just over 36,114 miles it's 59.73 AHr and 91% SOH. 24QC and 1538 L1/L2. I think the cooler weather helped slowing down the degradation. After all mine is a March 2013 vehicle so it's the old battery chemistry. For the coming summer I plan to find some shade to park the car at work, and only charge at dawn when the temperature is at its lowest. If I can prevent losing my first bar until 40,000 miles I'd be happy.
 
Sorry. I'm at work and an going to read through this whole thread when I get a chance. But I thought I'd ask a couple questions anyway.

I have a 2013 I bought in November and it still has all 12 bars even with slightly over 40,000 miles. Is that normal? From what I could tell on the navigation it was originally from Utah. I live in Colorado.

Also, what's a lizard pack?
 
It's normal for Leafs in genuinely cool climates to retain 12 bars. The "Lizard pack" is the version that was officially introduced with the 2015 model year. It's more resistant to age-related degradation, and more resistant to moderate heat than the first generation packs. It isn't much more resistant to high heat than older packs. It's possible that the Lizard pack was actually introduced in April of 2013, but there is no documentation for that. It's more likely that the packs made after March 2013 are a large intermediate step between the early, heat and age-sensitive packs (I call the "Canary Packs") and the Lizard pack.
 
My 2013 Leaf is down to 10 bars, in Raleigh. Got it in March 2013 so I assume it has the old chemistry. I may be the only Leaf driver in the city without a garage. 78% SOH, 51.61AHr, 44730mi.

Recently got LeafSpy and have been following this forum, to get ideas about what to do when it's paid off in a month or two. (Also have to take into account what to do with the other family car, a 2008 minivan, over the next few years).

I did get some capacity back by charging to 100% for a balance (I used to very rarely do so), though that was before I got LeafSpy and so I don't know how unbalanced it was. Also increasing tire pressure has brought me from 3.3 mi/kWh to 3.7 or so (without HVAC).

The news about lizard batteries is encouraging, so my tentative plan is to save up what would be the car payment for the next year or so, get a new battery, which would be a 30 kWh lizard one. It sounds like that will hold up better than the original, so unless I get a collapse in efficiency it could serve me well until the minivan's replacement is paid off a few years after that.
 
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