Will dealers be allowed to gouge us?

None of us know at this point how the priority will work. But I'm quite sure, we would have chosen the dealer, agreed to a price and reserved our spot in the queue - before the car is delivered. So, coming back to the title of this thread, dealers can't really gouge us unless we are lazy.

garygid said:

daniel,
I believe you are correct.

The real question is what place, after making "the deal", will we get in the manufacturing and delivering queue?

If I reserved first, but am a week or two "late" getting a dealer committed, will I fall way back in the delivery queue?

Or, does my very-early Reservation actually mean something?

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I don't believe that Nissan has said anything about how this will work. All those replies above are pure speculation. All they've said is that they will contact those of us in the early-roll-out areas in August. Perhaps at that time they'll explain to us how it will work and how priority will be decided. It certainly cannot hurt to develop a relationship with your preferred dealer ahead of time. Perhaps establish an agreement that you'll pay MSRP with no extras; perhaps establish credit for financing if you intend to finance through the dealer, and establish the terms of that financing.

There is not even any promise that a car ordered in August will be delivered before the end of December (important to those of us in WA due to the expiration of the sales tax exemption). You might be able to negotiate an agreement with the dealer that if the car does not come in December you get your deposit back; but that would have to be a mutual agreement between you and the dealer, and you'd have to get it in writing for it to be binding.

Bottom line: We know nothing except that we will be contacted with some information in June, though it might or might not be useful information, and that the ordering process will begin in August, and their goal is to deliver the first cars in December. We don't even know if Nissan itself has made a decision about how priority will be determined.

I try to think as little about it as possible.

Are other Smarties out thre?

I see the process as some variation of what Penske and smart did in 2007/2008. I configured a smart fortwo, chose a dealer (or one was chosen for me), and paid $99 fully refundable fee (not a deposit) online. Then I was placed in queue. Months later, the dealer called me and emailed me with my smart's VIN and anticipated arrival date. Some people were able to track their smart online through the U.S. port of entry. These were all Penske Auto Group dealers, so PAG had some control over pricing of the reserved smarts.

This all worked fine until people who had reserved smarts didn't pick theirs up. Each one of these created an "orphan" smart. To some extent, each dealer was on their own as to what to do with orphans. Most would make a list of interested orphan adoption customers (normally those already has reserved smarts but wanted one earlier). Also, many dealers started adding expensive options to the orphans, like $2,000/$3,000 navigation systems. Over time, the orphan inventory became so large that delaers had inventory to sell on the spot. Now you can go to a smart dealer and pick one up off the lot, like most other cars.

The thing is, even though dealers played games with the orphans, the smart customer online community was actively involved in pointing them out. This helped keep the process in line (somewhat).

Randy3 said:

Are other Smarties out thre?

I see the process as some variation of what Penske and smart did in 2007/2008. I configured a smart fortwo, chose a dealer (or one was chosen for me), and paid $99 fully refundable fee (not a deposit) online. Then I was placed in queue. Months later, the dealer called me and emailed me with my smart's VIN and anticipated arrival date. Some people were able to track their smart online through the U.S. port of entry. These were all Penske Auto Group dealers, so PAG had some control over pricing of the reserved smarts.

This all worked fine until people who had reserved smarts didn't pick theirs up. Each one of these created an "orphan" smart. To some extent, each dealer was on their own as to what to do with orphans. Most would make a list of interested orphan adoption customers (normally those already has reserved smarts but wanted one earlier). Also, many dealers started adding expensive options to the orphans, like $2,000/$3,000 navigation systems. Over time, the orphan inventory became so large that delaers had inventory to sell on the spot. Now you can go to a smart dealer and pick one up off the lot, like most other cars.

The thing is, even though dealers played games with the orphans, the smart customer online community was actively involved in pointing them out. This helped keep the process in line (somewhat).

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One of the original 'smarties' here -- (IL license plate E-SMART, also, although infrequently now on the smart car forum; it's my wife's car); just as you've stated from initial deposit on through to picking up the car at the MBZ/smart dealer knew exactly what it would cost, etc.; although I did not buy an orphan. Did get a few smart accessories (which were a bit pricey, but not dealer 'required options'). The only push was for an extended warranty which of course is mostly dealer profit which I didn't take.

As the LEAF could also be considered a niche market car, hopefully our buying experience will be somewhat similar ... if you recall though, MBZ required a separate 'smart' showroom, etc. so again I'm not sure how 'unique' Nissan will require their dealer's to showcase it as well as what customer buying experience and service standards they will put in place (although service visits should be pretty minor compared to the smart). With a forum like this, if there is dealer gouging going on I'm sure you'll see it here right away!

Dealer Progress:
1. My closest Dealer (OC Nissan) now has a very large "Lease a LEAF" banner across the front of their building.

2. The LEAF "specialist" there has a LEAF reserved for himself.

3. He is delighted to have the MyNissanLeaf "business" (info) cards to give potential customers.

4. I am "on their list" (my current "preferred" dealer).

evnow said:

... dealers can't really gouge us unless we are lazy.

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I wish I could agree, and I think fears of that are probably overblown, but I would not rule out the possibility, especially if there is no Leaf to test drive at the time we make our deal with the dealer. They may require a non-refundable deposit or at least a "restocking fee" if we turn down the car after it has been ordered and we finally get to drive it then we find it doesn't meet our needs, or Nissan changes some performance specs, etc. Initially cars will probably only be available in metropolitan areas where there are many dealers, so collusion or price-fixing is not likely, but as the distribution range expands some buyers may realistically have only one dealer to choose from, and that dealer can set the price as long as the car is in demand. Also, as the incentives get close to running out they can jack up the price almost $7500 and people will still find it cheaper to buy now than to wait for another dealer or better price. The potential is there.

Rat said:

evnow said:

... dealers can't really gouge us unless we are lazy.

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I wish I could agree, and I think fears of that are probably overblown, but I would not rule out the possibility, especially if there is no Leaf to test drive at the time we make our deal with the dealer. They may require a non-refundable deposit or at least a "restocking fee" if we turn down the car after it has been ordered ...

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This is a separate issue. "Gouging" suggests demanding too high a price. We will be able to negotiate a price before we give the dealer our purchase authorization, and we can go to another dealer if the price is not right. Once a contract is signed, the dealer cannot raise the price or change its terms. We will be wise to make sure the written agreement prevents the dealer from tacking on dealer add-ons. I believe that's what evnow is talking about when he mentions being lazy.

The pitfalls of buying a car without a test drive are another thing altogether. It's not gouging if the car arrives at the contracted price and you find it's not as nice a car as you had hoped. That's simply the risk of being an early adopter. If that risk is unacceptable, then you probably want to wait a year, and test drive a Leaf when dealers have them on their lots.

In (or near) most of the "first" areas, we should have a chance to see, sit in, and even drive a LEAF before August.

We can just ask Lance. He'll have been driving his for 3 months when we go to the dealer to pick up ours.

palmermd said:

We can just ask Lance. He'll have been driving his for 3 months

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I hope he really does (and blogs about it!)

I did not see WHEN Lance is going to get his.
Did they give a date, or month?
Thanks

garygid said:

Did they give a date, or month?

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September.

Cool, Thanks!

So, it seems that the first production LEAFs will be coming "off the line" (or almost) before October.

Perhaps there could be some early "first area" deliveries in November?

garygid said:

Cool, Thanks!

So, it seems that the first production LEAFs will be coming "off the line" (or almost) before October.

Perhaps there could be some early "first area" deliveries in November?

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Well, at least one will. It was speculated in another thread that other cars should be coming off the line at the same time, so the possibility existed of earlier deliveries than December. To that end, I was trying to find out how long ocean freight of vehicles took from Japan, but was unable. I know from personal experience that from the UK it takes 30 days to west coast ports, and I would expect more or less the same from Japan. So my best guess is that November could be a possibility.

evnow said:

mitch672 said:

of course not, but paying cash or financing the car are both the same, you are buying the car outright, and are commited to the full purchase price, eventually. with Leasing the commitment is less total $, for the first 36 months, then you can decide if you want to go "all in" and buy it outright.

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But when financing you aren't putting the money all upfront. Just like in lease. So, in terms of comparison, I'd compare the money paid for lease to financed buy.

Assuming 5% interest rate, doc fee of 500 - if the residue after 3 years is 11,000 - financing & lease would turn out to be the same in WA.

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u need to show me the math that says risidual after a 3 year lease would be 11,000. if paying $379 for 36 months that is 13,644. if purchase price is 33K, u have at least 20 k left over. granted the terms of lease are not available and i doubt that residual would be that high, but i expect it to be no less than 15-17K

mxp said:

Suppose one has a relative/family working as a Nissan car sales rep, would he/she be able to sell the LEAF below MSRP at all?

Since the official statement from Nissan is the dealer sets the price, it theorectically could go + or - from MSRP right?

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not gonna happen. my sister works for Ford and get an employee discount on several models. however, ones in short supply are not on the employee purchase list. she was interested in the Ford Fusion Hybrid, but it is still not on employee purchase program. i hope to sell her my Pri when i get the Leaf

DaveinOlyWA said:

u need to show me the math that says risidual after a 3 year lease would be 11,000. if paying $379 for 36 months that is 13,644. if purchase price is 33K, u have at least 20 k left over. granted the terms of lease are not available and i doubt that residual would be that high, but i expect it to be no less than 15-17K

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I agree. See this thread for some estimates and calculations:
http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=431

DaveinOlyWA said:

evnow said:

Assuming 5% interest rate, doc fee of 500 - if the residue after 3 years is 11,000 - financing & lease would turn out to be the same in WA.

Click to expand...

u need to show me the math that says risidual after a 3 year lease would be 11,000. if paying $379 for 36 months that is 13,644. if purchase price is 33K, u have at least 20 k left over. granted the terms of lease are not available and i doubt that residual would be that high, but i expect it to be no less than 15-17K

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Note the "if". I was comparing lease & buy - I'll post the math again.

garygid said:

In (or near) most of the "first" areas, we should have a chance to see, sit in, and even drive a LEAF before August.

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Has Nissan said this? Or are you saying that you feel Nissan ought to allow us to see and test drive before ordering? If the latter, of course I agree. But I'll be surprised if it happens, because it would mean bringing pre-production cars around to all the markets, in numbers sufficient to allow many thousands of people to drive them. Note that if this is to happen before we actually order, then everyone on the $99 list will want to drive the car, whether they plan on actually ordering or not.

I speculate that those who order in August because they want their Leafs as early as possible, will have to do so without ever having driven the car. Perhaps they'll bring a pre-production car to a show in each market so the press and potential early buyers can see it, much as Toyota brought a 2010 Prius to show off in Detroit before it went on sale.

I think it will be much like the EV-11 test drive events, where you get to do a couple of laps on a closed course in a parking lot, and get to fondle the car a bit. It would only require a couple of LEAFs. I doubt we'll be getting test drives on public roads.