Battery-electric bus discussion

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TonyWilliams said:
GRA said:
RegGuheert said:
I wonder why you have posted an article about a hybrid bus which does not contain a traction battery in a thread entitled "Battery-electric bus discussion".
Because this would seem to be a potentially good use for a BEV bus, and I was wondering why they chose to go another way, so thought I'd post it and see if anyone had more info. The reasons why BEV buses aren't chosen when it seems they might be suitable are of interest to me, just as the reasons why BEV buses ARE chosen are of interest. I want to see the factors driving the decision, and when/how much they move as the tech improves.

I suspect that issue has probably more to do with government grants or university studies etc. then bona fide best choices.
I've had a look at the road profile on the park website, and it's very steep leading out of the visitor center, plus the temps are often cool to cold. I'm having some difficulty matching the 14-mile run with shuttle buses. This appears to be a new short-range service that stops more than 3 miles short of the normal shortest turn-around. See https://www.nps.gov/dena/planyourvisit/maps.htm
 
GRA said:
Because this would seem to be a potentially good use for a BEV bus, and I was wondering why they chose to go another way, so thought I'd post it and see if anyone had more info.
By that logic, any time any organization purchases a bus which is not an H2 FCV, should I create a post about it in that thread and say "Gee, I wonder why they didn't purchase an H2 FCV?" :roll:

(In case anyone is sarcasm-challenged, the answer clearly is "No!")
 
RegGuheert said:
GRA said:
Because this would seem to be a potentially good use for a BEV bus, and I was wondering why they chose to go another way, so thought I'd post it and see if anyone had more info.
By that logic, any time any organization purchases a bus which is not an H2 FCV, should I create a post about it in that thread and say "Gee, I wonder why they didn't purchase an H2 FCV?" :roll:

(In case anyone is sarcasm-challenged, the answer clearly is "No!")
If it's relevant and the answer's non-obvious, why wouldn't you? After all, the Park Service would love to use only ZEV buses, so when they don't find them suitable the reasons are of interest (to me, at least). The reason why a commercial entity doesn't choose an FCEV bus is usually obvious; cost compared to an ICE. However, since you started this thread, if you'd prefer I'll start another dealing only with non-BEV buses as well as all ZEV trucks. Let me know.
 
GRA said:
However, since you started this thread, if you'd prefer I'll start another dealing only with non-BEV buses as well as all ZEV trucks. Let me know.
I started this thread because I found we were talking about BEV buses in the H2 FCV thread. So, yeah, if you don't mind, let's please keep them separate.
 
RegGuheert said:
GRA said:
However, since you started this thread, if you'd prefer I'll start another dealing only with non-BEV buses as well as all ZEV trucks. Let me know.
I started this thread because I found we were talking about BEV buses in the H2 FCV thread. So, yeah, if you don't mind, let's please keep them separate.
Done: http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=22441
 
Via IEVS:
First Hong Kong Hotel Electrifies Their Shuttle Fleet To Help The Environment
http://insideevs.com/first-hong-kong-hotel-electrifies-their-shuttle-fleet-to-help-the-environment/

. . .The e-shuttle has a capacity for 14 passengers, and runs on a circular route around the Kowloon peninsula in the Tsim Sha Tsui area for guest to hop on and off around all the tourist attractions and shopping malls. . . .

The e-shuttle is built by a Chinese manufacturer named “WUZHOULONG MOTORS”. The power management system and 3 phase 45kW AC motor was also produced by Chinese firms. The air cooled battery is supplied by Samsung with a capacity of 101.6kWh.

According to the hotel staff each round trip within the Tsim Sha Tsui is about 6km/4 miles (flat roads) and that the maximum range is about 10 trips, but they usually recharge when SOC (state of charge) reaches about 30%.

The manufacturer has other models with extended ranges and power suitable for driving on uphill roads; which are quite common on the Hong Kong island. Over the last few months of operation, the staff noted the average electricity cost per month is under $500 (USD) to operate the two e-shuttle versus, as opposed to the ~$2,000 per month needed to operate their two old diesel based shuttles, running on the same route.

For guest arriving from or leaving the airport (which is about a 70km/45 mile round trip ride), the hotel uses its BMW i3 and Tesla Model S fleet to serve those needs. . . .
 
Via IEVS:
Swedish ElectriCity E-Bus Project Carried 1.2 Million Passengers In First Year
http://insideevs.com/swedish-electricity-e-bus-project-carried-1-2-million-passengers-in-first-year/

Volvo celebrated the first anniversary of the Gothenburg’s electric bus service this Summer – ElectriCity, which was launched in June of 2015. The three all-electric buses in service on route 55 between Chalmers and Lindholmen surpassed expectations of the provider, and apparently received mostly positive feedback. . . .

“According to Public Transport Authority Västtrafik, passengers are generally very satisfied with the service. The fact that the buses run on renewable electricity is regarded favourably, and the bus stops at Chalmersplatsen and Teknikgatan are rated very highly. . . and no less than 93 per cent feel that the low on-board noise level is a great benefit. Measurements carried out by Volvo confirm these perceptions and show considerable differences in noise between diesel and electric power, both inside and outside the buses, particularly at low speeds.

Surveys carried out by bus operator Keolis show that the bus drivers also feel the low noise level is one of the biggest advantages of electric power, both because it contributes to a better working environment and because it is appreciated by the passengers. The fact that the buses are equipped with zone management which automatically limits speed in certain areas is regarded as positive and boosts safety.

Route 55 is not only Gothenburg’s first route serviced by electric buses, it is above all an arena for showcasing the latest technologies and for developing emerging solutions. That is why the programme is being studied very thoroughly. . . .
 
Via GCC:
Proterra launches new Catalyst E2 series electric bus with nominal range of up to 350 miles
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2016/09/20160912-proterra.html

At the American Public Transit Association (APTA) Annual Meeting, Proterra unveiled the newest addition to its fleet of electric buses: the Catalyst E2 series, named for its Efficient Energy (E2) storage capacity of 440 - 660 kWh. Last month, an E2 series vehicle achieved a new milestone at Michelin’s Laurens Proving Grounds where it logged more than 600 miles (966 km) on a single charge under test conditions.

Its nominal range of 194 - 350 miles means the Catalyst E2 series is capable of serving the full daily mileage needs of nearly every US. mass transit route on a single charge and offers the transit industry the first direct replacement for fossil-fueled transit vehicles. . . .
Assuming that the real-world range lives up to its billing and that life-cycle costs are lower than FCEVs, this would eliminate any need to use FCEV buses for local bus routes almost everywhere, restricting them to over-the-road usage. Or perhaps the FCEV range-extender will be the way to go. Definitely a development to watch closely.
 
China EV bus sales:

------------- 2010 -- 2011 -- 2012 ---- 2013 --- 2014 --- 2015
BEV ------- 523 --- 1136 -- 1904 -----1672 - 12760 - -94260
PHEV ------------------------------------- -2637 - 16500 --- 23051
HEV --------------------------- 3804 ---- 2825 --- 5825 ---- 6111
 
Via GCC:
Navigant Research forecasts battery-electric to be leading type of electric powertrain for buses through 2026
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2016/10/20161011-navigant.html

Also posted in the Non BEV-bus thread, as it deals with HEV, PHEV and FCEV buses as well.
 
Via IEVS:
TARC Becomes One Of The Largest EV Bus Operators With 15 Proterras
http://insideevs.com/tarc-becomes-one-largest-ev-bus-operators-15-proterras/

H'mm, Louisville, KY. In 2015, 87% of Kentucky's electricity was produced by coal. Maybe some small improvement in downtown air quality, maybe not so good overall. Along that line:
Mitch McConnell’s Drive to Keep the Coal Fires Burning
http://takingnote.blogs.nytimes.com/2015/03/25/mitch-mcconnells-drive-to-keep-the-coal-fires-burning/?_r=0
 
Proterra now has cost comparisons on their website:

Proterra_OperationalSavings40_RGB-1024x501.jpg


Man, those things are expensive! In any case, I wonder how confident they are that they can achieve a 12-year life from their batteries. I'm sure the technology will get there, but I'm not convinced it is there today.
 
RegGuheert said:
Proterra now has cost comparisons on their website:

Man, those things are expensive! In any case, I wonder how confident they are that they can achieve a 12-year life from their batteries. I'm sure the technology will get there, but I'm not convinced it is there today.
Yeah, and will they warranty that - the website says the battery has a 6 year warranty (presumably parts and materials, not capacity), but "extended warranties and service contracts available upon request". BYD has been claiming that their batteries will last twelve years, but I don't believe I've seen anything that would indicate that there's a capacity warranty for that period of time (or any other).
 
smkettner said:
So use the older buses on a shorter route or charge more frequently.
Agreed that is the best operational approach to capacity fade in BEV buses. Still, I wonder if you can really get 12 years of daily use out of any of today's batteries.

Also, looking at the chart that I posted, I have to say that there is a real discrepancy between the graph and the words written on the graph. The words say "$448K versus diesel" but the graph says $175K. The words say "$409K versus CNG" but the graph says $150K. The words say "459K versus hybrid" but the words say $380K. Caveat emptor, I suppose.
 
RegGuheert said:
smkettner said:
So use the older buses on a shorter route or charge more frequently.
Agreed that is the best operational approach to capacity fade in BEV buses. Still, I wonder if you can really get 12 years of daily use out of any of today's batteries.

Also, looking at the chart that I posted, I have to say that there is a real discrepancy between the graph and the words written on the graph. The words say "$448K versus diesel" but the graph says $175K. The words say "$409K versus CNG" but the graph says $150K. The words say "459K versus hybrid" but the words say $380K. Caveat emptor, I suppose.
You have to start from the base of fuel and maintenance, i.e. ignoring the vehicle cost ("lifetime operational savings") to get their numbers.

Restricting vehicles to only shorter routes as they age is a lot better in theory than practice. It can make scheduling and dispatching a royal pain, and lead to missed trips if you don't have the right vehicle available at the right time. If you've got a large fleet you may be able to make it work, but with medium and smaller size fleets it may well wind up costing you more, as you have to try to rent to cover the shortfalls.
 
Or just use them at rush hour on the busiest routes. Then you can charge twice a day.
Or have some trolley poles added to charge enroute. Plenty of options.
The money for batteries will probably be better spent on a new lower cost bus with more range and features.

Will know more as we travel. Enjoy the journey because there is no real end destination here.
 
Via GCC:
California ARB awards funding to San Joaquin Valley Air Pollution Control District to deploy 15 Proterra electric buses
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2016/11/20161116-arb.html

The California Air Resources Board (CARB) awarded funding to the San Joaquin Valley Air Pollution Control District (SJVAPCD) to deploy 15 Proterra Catalyst buses; 11 Proterra depot-chargers; and 4 Proterra fast-chargers.

Proterra will deploy its buses and charging stations throughout the Valley, including the City of Visalia Transit Division, Fresno County Rural Transit Agency, California State University Fresno, San Joaquin Regional Transit District and City of Modesto Transit Services, helping to significantly reduce harmful emissions and clean the air in the San Joaquin Valley. . . .
 
Via GCC:
London transport operator Go-Ahead adds two Irizar electric i2e buses to fleet after successful operating results
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2016/11/20161129-irizar.html

. . . For over a year, these two buses have been operating on the busy routes 507, connecting Waterloo Station with Victoria Station, and 521, which connect Waterloo Station with London Bridge Station. The operating data has successfully fulfilled the objectives requested. With this change, both buses will begin to operate for longer periods on the 108 route which runs from Stratford International Station to Lewisham Station with different operating conditions. In addition, Irizar will offer comprehensive maintenance of the buses. . . .

The main features of the two 12m buses include a continuous low floor and two double doors with an electric ramp located in the central door. A 282 kWh battery pack powers a 180 kW motor; operating range is between 160 km and 180 km (99 to 112 miles) under London traffic conditions. The buses also incorporate a heating-cooling unit for the driver area and complete anti-vandalism locks.

The buses have 26 seats + 1 PMR seat and a total capacity of 60 people. The vehicles also incorporate all the on-board fleet management systems and telemetry which are standard in London buses. . . .

I include the following link solely because of the comment referencing the movie below, which I have absolutely no memory of:
Volvo launches the world’s largest bus; 30m, 300 passengers
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2016/11/20161126-volvo.html

Link to "The Big Bus" movie trailer: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=68dTwJNvE1E Wiki entry: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Big_Bus

How on earth did I miss this at the time? It was "Airplane!" before "Airplane!", and just look at the cast!
 
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