Is the "plug-in" era nearly over?

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GRA said:
OT: I haven't seen any news about the Roadster battery upgrade in a while, and I've always wondered if they were going to offer SC compatibility with that.

Yes it's gone quiet. I honestly don't see the point. The roadster is NOT a car you WANT to drive for 200 miles at a time, much less 400. And in track use the thermal power reduction kicks in WAY before you run out of juice. So I am not sure who would get the upgrade.

And I doubt it about SC support, the Roadster could always handle 70a but they never worked out the kinks and have shown no interest in providing an adapter or charge stalls. It would probably also need a modified power module and there are too few of them around for it to be worthwhile.
 
epirali said:
GRA said:
OT: I haven't seen any news about the Roadster battery upgrade in a while, and I've always wondered if they were going to offer SC compatibility with that.

Yes it's gone quiet. I honestly don't see the point. The roadster is NOT a car you WANT to drive for 200 miles at a time, much less 400. And in track use the thermal power reduction kicks in WAY before you run out of juice. So I am not sure who would get the upgrade.

And I doubt it about SC support, the Roadster could always handle 70a but they never worked out the kinks and have shown no interest in providing an adapter or charge stalls. It would probably also need a modified power module and there are too few of them around for it to be worthwhile.
Is it that uncomfortable? I've read that the cooling fans are quite loud, but don't recall much about the ride quality. My Datsun 2000 Roadster could be taken on long road trips in reasonable comfort, so what's the issue with the Tesla? I thought they had provided an adapter to let you use the Model S HPWC connectors at least, but maybe I'm misinformed. I have no idea what might be involved in providing SC compatibility, but it just seems like a good idea in general.
 
GRA said:
Is it that uncomfortable? I've read that the cooling fans are quite loud, but don't recall much about the ride quality. My Datsun 2000 Roadster could be taken on long road trips in reasonable comfort, so what's the issue with the Tesla? I thought they had provided an adapter to let you use the Model S HPWC connectors at least, but maybe I'm misinformed. I have no idea what might be involved in providing SC compatibility, but it just seems like a good idea in general.

Well, between the suspension that lets you "inspect" the fine grain of every pebble in the road in detail (seriously hitting a tiny metal rise at the edge of a bridge at 65 requires bracing yourself) and the fact that nothing remain anywhere in any compartment while driving (well, that is MOSTLY my fault) and lack of space it really is not a long drive car. It is a Lotus, it was meant to be taken to track days and throw around on curvy roads. It wasn't designed for humans to drive to the grocery store! The prize you get for that kind of suspension is pretty insane cornering/handling ability, but anyone who wants to drive it for 200+ miles is a masochist or is trying to repent for something.

The fans work very actively but the car just can not get rid of heat fast enough when pushed (which is the same with Model S). So you can use all the power for a brief period of time, then the car has to cool down.

I have never seen any kind of adapter except for L2, and those don't work (the car trips most L2 EVSEs by ground fault, and this is normal).
 
epirali said:
GRA said:
Is it that uncomfortable? I've read that the cooling fans are quite loud, but don't recall much about the ride quality. My Datsun 2000 Roadster could be taken on long road trips in reasonable comfort, so what's the issue with the Tesla? I thought they had provided an adapter to let you use the Model S HPWC connectors at least, but maybe I'm misinformed. I have no idea what might be involved in providing SC compatibility, but it just seems like a good idea in general.

Well, between the suspension that lets you "inspect" the fine grain of every pebble in the road in detail (seriously hitting a tiny metal rise at the edge of a bridge at 65 requires bracing yourself) and the fact that nothing remain anywhere in any compartment while driving (well, that is MOSTLY my fault) and lack of space it really is not a long drive car. It is a Lotus, it was meant to be taken to track days and throw around on curvy roads. It wasn't designed for humans to drive to the grocery store! The prize you get for that kind of suspension is pretty insane cornering/handling ability, but anyone who wants to drive it for 200+ miles is a masochist or is trying to repent for something.

The fans work very actively but the car just can not get rid of heat fast enough when pushed (which is the same with Model S). So you can use all the power for a brief period of time, then the car has to cool down.

I have never seen any kind of adapter except for L2, and those don't work (the car trips most L2 EVSEs by ground fault, and this is normal).
A long time ago (before I got my license) I knew someone with a purple Lotus Europa, and while I can't directly comment on the driving qualities, from a passenger's point of view it certainly would corner.

The Datsun had a very rudimentary suspension (you'd get rear axle windup anytime you made a sharp right turn while accelerating) and fairly stiff shocks, and with its short wheelbase truck heaves on the freeway were like driving into a head sea with short, steep waves - you could get quite a pounding/rocking. But I don't remember the ride as being uncomfortable with a good surface. Might have had something to do with the fact that it had 165/80-14 tires. If you put 185/70-14s on it, they'd rub the inside of the fender wells anytime the suspension was compressed much. I've never been a big fan of super-low profile tires.

Maybe I was just younger then, and willing to put up with more - after the exhaust pipe developed a leak directly under me I drove around with a 'heated driver's seat' for about a year, winter and summer! :lol: That car was a lot of fun, and other than its lack of carrying capacity, practical for commuting as well.

Another friend had a Honda S2000 for a while, and although it benefitted from about 35 years of refinement compared to the Datsun, reminded me a lot of it, and I could easily have seen using one as my daily drive, although I prefer an engine with enough low-end torque that I don't have to row the gears for routine driving, and Honda engines tend to be peaky. The 1st gen Miata didn't fit me, always struck me as sort of meek looking, and they've always seemed to be a bit weak in the engine department. But they may well be better now, and by all accounts they have a near perfect blend of power and handling.
 
OT
epirali said:
GRA said:
OT: I haven't seen any news about the Roadster battery upgrade in a while, and I've always wondered if they were going to offer SC compatibility with that.

Yes it's gone quiet. I honestly don't see the point. The roadster is NOT a car you WANT to drive for 200 miles at a time, much less 400. And in track use the thermal power reduction kicks in WAY before you run out of juice. So I am not sure who would get the upgrade.

And I doubt it about SC support, the Roadster could always handle 70a but they never worked out the kinks and have shown no interest in providing an adapter or charge stalls. It would probably also need a modified power module and there are too few of them around for it to be worthwhile.
ievs has the news:
Tesla Roadster Battery Upgrade, 330+ Miles Of Range Priced At $29,000
http://insideevs.com/tesla-roadster-upgrade-priced-29000-reserve-now/#comment-725987
 
GRA said:
FWIW, via ievs:
Wireless Charging To Displace Conductive Charging By 2028?
http://insideevs.com/wireless-charging/

Displace? Yes. Replace? Probably never.

The question isn't whether wireless charging will displace some wired charging, but rather how much. I can't see it ever being a wholesale replacement for a simple set of wires though.

I'm also sure that eventually some -if not all- EVs will come stock with a wireless charger. Who will be first? My money is on an Infiniti LE waiting in the wings for the next gen battery.
 
The GM EV1 was actually "wireless" charging, in that there was no actual metal-to-metal connection. You had to insert the "paddle" in the slot, but the charging was inductive.

How far we've come since then. Not.
 
leafdecision said:
The GM EV1 was actually "wireless" charging, in that there was no actual metal-to-metal connection. You had to insert the "paddle" in the slot, but the charging was inductive.

How far we've come since then. Not.

Yeah, that kind of wireless is pretty much the worst of both worlds. Not sure what advantage it has over a J1772 connection...
 
GRA said:
FWIW, via ievs:
Wireless Charging To Displace Conductive Charging By 2028?
http://insideevs.com/wireless-charging/
One of the comments in that article pointed to Momentum Dynamics. That commentor claims they have 91% efficiency for the wireless portion of their charging system today and are shooting for 93% efficiency:
kdawg said:
Momentum Dynamics wireless charging system claims to be as efficient as plugging in.

“Efficiency would be on par with a plug Miller said. The wireless portion has demonstrated 91-percent efficiency and Momentum is shooting for 93 percent. On-board chargers (OBC) have similar efficiency at handling current delivered by traditional plug-in electric vehicle service equipment (EVSE), said Miller. So, while the solid cord connection is more-efficient at delivering current to the OBC, losses elsewhere in the power processing and routing make what EVs now rely on no better than Momentum’s setup.”

They can also charge at 25kW, and are working on 50kw and 100kW systems.
I'm not sure where they got that quote from, but that sounds pretty decent considering the size of the air gap.

Still, I prefer being able to plug in, not only for the efficiency, but also because I sometimes park the car outside when the garage has junk in it.
 
RegGuheert said:
Still, I prefer being able to plug in, not only for the efficiency, but also because I sometimes park the car outside when the garage has junk in it.

This is the bottom line for anyone living in the real world. I have things I'm moving around. Plus, I have kids to move things I don't want to move ;) I simply cannot assure that I always park my car in the same spot every day of the year.

Moreover, I have a fleet of EVs now. My wife and I can easily swap the plug back and forth as needed, without moving the cars. We'd either need two (somewhat expensive) pads, or have to constantly juggle cars.
 
GetOffYourGas said:
leafdecision said:
The GM EV1 was actually "wireless" charging, in that there was no actual metal-to-metal connection. You had to insert the "paddle" in the slot, but the charging was inductive.

How far we've come since then. Not.

Yeah, that kind of wireless is pretty much the worst of both worlds. Not sure what advantage it has over a J1772 connection...
At the time, safety was the selling point, i.e. no potentially hot, exposed contacts.
 
GetOffYourGas said:
GRA said:
FWIW, via ievs:
Wireless Charging To Displace Conductive Charging By 2028?
http://insideevs.com/wireless-charging/

Displace? Yes. Replace? Probably never.

The question isn't whether wireless charging will displace some wired charging, but rather how much. I can't see it ever being a wholesale replacement for a simple set of wires though.

I'm also sure that eventually some -if not all- EVs will come stock with a wireless charger. Who will be first? My money is on an Infiniti LE waiting in the wings for the next gen battery.
For public charging, I expect wireless to entirely replace wired. The advantages from the maintenance, vandalism and liability standpoints (here in the land of 'trip and fall') are too big to ignore. I suspect most people who have a garage and are willing/able to make room in it so they can park a car there instead of using it to store their 'stuff', will also opt for wireless, as the convenience of not needing to remember to plug in will outweigh any efficiency concerns for all but the most dedicated purists.

As to which cars will get it first, most of the high-end plug-ins that are in the design stage are being designed for it, but whether it will be a Japanese, German or even U.S. car remains to be seen.
 
GRA said:
ievs has the news:
Tesla Roadster Battery Upgrade, 330+ Miles Of Range Priced At $29,000
http://insideevs.com/tesla-roadster-upgrade-priced-29000-reserve-now/#comment-725987

Thank you for the link. I don't think I am tempted (yet) but will definitely check it out.
 
2018 is not that far away...

All non-electric fuels will probably eventually be replaced by electricity (if not for other reasons) because electricity is the only fuel that will be delivered while-you-drive.

And while we may see the first large-scale kWh deliveries in freeway right lanes with trucks, I expect that we soon after will also see it in the high-speed (autonomous) left lane.

Batteries of modest capacities will still be in the vehicles of course, for regenerative braking, local driving, and for the final miles to your destination after you leave the chargeway.

Electric Trucking Charges Up
In a pilot project, vehicles equipped with ‘receiving coils’ will draw power from another coil buried in the road in Colorado


Officials in Colorado are planning a public-road test of battery-charging technology capable of powering electric trucks while they drive.

In the pilot project, believed to be the first of its kind in the U.S., vehicles equipped with “receiving coils” will draw power from another coil buried in the road. The Colorado Transportation Department and infrastructure developer Aecom Inc. are scouting potential sites, including busy roads near Denver International Airport, with a goal of launching in 2018.

Heavy-duty electric trucks remain a rare sight on highways, in part because they need to make frequent stops to recharge and must carry heavy, expensive batteries. The pilot’s developers say their goal is to extend the distances electric trucks can drive and reduce the bulkiness of in-vehicle batteries...
http://www.wsj.com/articles/electric-trucking-charges-up-1481212800
 
edatoakrun said:
2018 is not that far away...

All non-electric fuels will probably eventually be replaced by electricity (if not for other reasons) because electricity is the only fuel that will be delivered while-you-drive.

And while we may see the first large-scale kWh deliveries in freeway right lanes with trucks, I expect that we soon after will also see it in the high-speed (autonomous) left lane.

Batteries of modest capacities will still be in the vehicles of course, for regenerative braking, local driving, and for the final miles to your destination after you leave the chargeway.

Electric Trucking Charges Up
In a pilot project, vehicles equipped with ‘receiving coils’ will draw power from another coil buried in the road in Colorado


Officials in Colorado are planning a public-road test of battery-charging technology capable of powering electric trucks while they drive.

In the pilot project, believed to be the first of its kind in the U.S., vehicles equipped with “receiving coils” will draw power from another coil buried in the road. The Colorado Transportation Department and infrastructure developer Aecom Inc. are scouting potential sites, including busy roads near Denver International Airport, with a goal of launching in 2018.

Heavy-duty electric trucks remain a rare sight on highways, in part because they need to make frequent stops to recharge and must carry heavy, expensive batteries. The pilot’s developers say their goal is to extend the distances electric trucks can drive and reduce the bulkiness of in-vehicle batteries...
http://www.wsj.com/articles/electric-trucking-charges-up-1481212800
While I'm all for demo projects like this, one does wonder just how we're supposed to pay for this if adopted on a large scale, seeing as how we're not even willing (well, our pols aren't; the public seems to be willing) to pay to maintain the far less expensive road infrastructure we have now.
 
People think, hope and expect that electrified roads will really happen. This is very very silly.

First I would like to remind that trolleybuses and trams are very old inventions. And they both run on electricity.
Secondly I would like to remind that power to run those is extremely high. Even for a car to have
any meaningful effect effective power transfer should be at least 15 kWh.
Due to efficiency losses input power per car should be at least 20 kWh. ONE vehicle!
This requires a lot of copper, per one feet. I would say even for one inch.
Now to make any meaningful sense this highway must be electrified for hundreds of miles/kilometers.
This will cost billions. Literally. Even if we find ultra-simple way to build that we need tons of copper
and copper will not get cheap because of demand (like in battery industry). More demand for copper
results higher cost of it. In addition to that we need to replace that copper structure often. Due to the fact
that we can NOT bury it in the lower asphalt layer. It will be so far away that efficiency will fall below 50% in ideal conditions.

Looking in the near future (few decades) there is absolutely no slightly positive outcomes that end with reasonable results.

Even if we look at wired up highways.
https://www.scania.com/group/en/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2016/06/lds-elvag-1.jpg
It has big cost per mile. This is why it has been done only for low mileage high-usage city traffic (trolleybuses and trams).

Wired version is cheaper, in the order of magnitude - and it is still not happening. It could be done for hundred years already.

Wireless roads are not going to happen any time soon - and even if they could happen, they don't make a slightest sense.
It is not possible to cover all roads. Therefore ALL normal vehicles must have tens of kilowatt-hours of batteries on board.
Adding wireless capability only on the car side will cost 20-40kWh of battery capacity + space for that capacity.
 
guess
verb
gerund or present participle: guessing
estimate or conclude (something) without sufficient information to be sure of being correct.
"she guessed the child's age at 14 or 15"
synonyms: estimate, calculate, approximate, make a guess at, make an estimate of; More
form a correct conclusion about (something) by guessing.
"she's guessed where we're going"
informal
used to indicate that although one thinks or supposes something, it is without any great conviction or strength of feeling.
"I guess I'd better tell you everything"
 
Via GCC:
Wireless charging bench testing complete, proving interoperability and validating SAE TIR J2954
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2016/12/20161214-j2954.html

SAE International is working to ensure that electric vehicle wireless power transfer systems from different manufacturers can interoperate seamlessly with each other to prepare for commercialization in 2020. Idaho National Laboratory (INL) and TDK R&D Corporation, along with the US Department of Energy (DOE), automotive companies and suppliers have completed bench testing to support the SAE Technical Information Report (TIR) J2954. (Earlier post.) SAE TIR J2954 is a guideline for the wireless charging of plug-in electric vehicles that was published by the SAE International (formerly the Society of Automotive Engineers) earlier this year.

The SAE TIR J2954 provides guidance to ensure performance and safety of Wireless Power Transfer (WPT) Systems provided from one vendor as well as interoperability when parts of the system are provided from different vendors. For the first time, interoperability between the so-called Double D (DD) and Circular Topologies has been demonstrated between 3.7 to 7.7 kW with efficiencies exceeding 85-90% under aligned conditions. . . .

INL researchers contributed to the SAE J2954 validation by testing wireless charging systems from three companies—Toyota, WiTricity, and Qualcomm—in the summer and fall of 2016. The WiTricity system—submitted in cooperation with Nissan—and the Qualcomm system—submitted in cooperation with Jaguar-Land Rover—both operated at up to 7.7 kW. . . .

Engineers from Toyota, Nissan, WiTricity, and Qualcomm collaborated with both INL and TDK on site in a series of tests on the interoperability of their respective wireless charging systems. The tests allowed those engineers to adjust their company’s systems in real time to improve interoperability performance. . . .

The SAE TIR J2954 also has a significant part of its content dedicated to EMC (electromagnetic compatibility) and EMF (electromagnetic field) validation of WPT systems. The same companies that underwent testing at INL continued their testing at TDK R&D Corporation’s Texas based electromagnetics lab for this aspect of the evaluation. . . .
 
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