Tesla Supercharger Network

GRA said:

Nah, that's just I-94 from Billings to Fargo, which was on the '2016' (and '2015') maps. As I've been saying for the past couple of years that that section of I-94 should be the very last primary interstate in the contiguous 48 to be completed, I look forward to it making a return appearance on the '2018' map!
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Good call, I didn't remember they had any planned for ND, but there it was.
They do have four more in SD and a couple in southern MN (looks like Rochester is one, yay!).

I've always been surprised at how dismissive you are at what Tesla accomplishes.
For a private company to do magnitudes more than what much larger, more well established companies are doing is astounding.
I'll take 80% of shooting for the moon over succeeding in doing nothing any day

Zythryn said:

GRA said:

Nah, that's just I-94 from Billings to Fargo, which was on the '2016' (and '2015') maps. As I've been saying for the past couple of years that that section of I-94 should be the very last primary interstate in the contiguous 48 to be completed, I look forward to it making a return appearance on the '2018' map!
...

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Good call, I didn't remember they had any planned for ND, but there it was.
They do have four more in SD and a couple in southern MN (looks like Rochester is one, yay!).

I've always been surprised at how dismissive you are at what Tesla accomplishes.
For a private company to do magnitudes more than what much larger, more well established companies are doing is astounding.
I'll take 80% of shooting for the moon over succeeding in doing nothing any day

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Not dismissive, just not willing to accept repetitive hype over actual results. I've said repeatedly that Tesla has accomplished far more than anyone else in looking at BEVs as a system and implementing that, but I do wish that they'd stop publicly announcing goals that they have no realistic chance of meeting, and show some maturity. If they want to set an internal goal of building superchargers between here and the moon by Memorial Day, fine, but don't tell the public that. Instead of announcing 100% and only achieving 70% of that, they should be announcing 60% and achieving 100+% of that. Or, to quote my old sig, under-promise and over-deliver rather than the opposite.

IMO GM did that with both the Volt and Bolt; Nissan obviously didn't with the LEAF. For that reason, I'm a big fan of stealth SC sites (such as the one that just popped up in Mt. Gilead, OH), as they can help to cover any shortfalls in the announced routes - people like _pleasant_ surprises. Even so, out of well over 100 (forget the exact number that was on the '2016' map) new U.S. SCs that were promised for 2016, the current total is 85 [Edit: 86 including Mt. Gilead], and they might get a few more before the end of the year. Seeing as how they completed 102 last year, and they still haven't finished many of the major primary interstates (those with 1 or 2 digits ending in '0' or '5') promised this year let alone done much off them, count me underwhelmed but not surprised. Some people see the glass as half full, others as half empty. I see it as having 50% of its internal volume occupied by air, and 50% by liquid

Re: GRA: mainly the 2016 map retitled
I don't think so. There are considerably more dots on the 2017 than the planned 2016.
I created this from saved image. not perfect but a reasonable way to view it.
planned-2016-vs-planned-2017

GRA said:

Zythryn said:

2017 map is up!

https://www.tesla.com/supercharger

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Without checking every dot, on a quick look it appears to be mainly the 2016 map retitled, i.e. I-10/20, I-40, I-80, I-94, I-25, I-29 from I-94 to Winnipeg etc. all completed, plus some infill and a little bit of off-interstate expansion - looks like Alamosa and Salida on U.S. 285 in Colorado, plus maybe Walsenburg on I-25, and Kremmling on U.S. 40. Glacier will finally be semi-accessible, with an SC in the Kalispell - W. Glacier area (plus the three on I-25 in Helena, Great Falls and Shelby that were on the 2016 map), and Kayenta has also rolled over. Looks like there may be one coming around Payson, AZ too - I would have thought Globe and Show Low would also show up around the same time.

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Here on my turf I'm surprised and pleased to see Salida and Alamosa on the map. Salida will serve as a backup when rock slides close I-70 and Alamosa opens up the San Luis Valley (Great Sand Dunes NP) as well as US 160 between I-25 and Durango (Farmington Supercharger Station). Those are major routes for locals as well as visitors. They've also got a couple in northern Colorado in the Winter Park and Steamboat Springs (or Craig) area. And, in addition to my much hoped-for Kayenta, I notice that I-25 in New Mexico and I-10 and I-80 would be finished off. Some of those are already in the works, as you know. There are also many more locations in California, presumably to deal with congestion there. And the Seattle area gets some Supercharger Stations, at last; I had to charge on L2 for a visit to Kirkland last spring; my hosts live in a high-rise condo there so no destination charging.

scottf200 said:

Re: GRA: mainly the 2016 map retitled
I don't think so. There are considerably more dots on the 2017 than the planned 2016.
I created this from saved image. not perfect but a reasonable way to view it.
planned-2016-vs-planned-2017

Click to expand...

Sure there are a lot more dots, although the majority of them seem to be infill on existing routes rather than expansion; both are needed. Hopefully someone on TMC has the patience to count all of the new ones.

Edit: Here's a good comparo, world-wide, from TMC (post #31, a few above scottf200's, for those who prefer it without the blinking): https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/2017-supercharger-map-is-up.82551/page-2

dgpcolorado said:

GRA said:

Zythryn said:

2017 map is up!

https://www.tesla.com/supercharger

Click to expand...

Without checking every dot, on a quick look it appears to be mainly the 2016 map retitled, i.e. I-10/20, I-40, I-80, I-94, I-25, I-29 from I-94 to Winnipeg etc. all completed, plus some infill and a little bit of off-interstate expansion - looks like Alamosa and Salida on U.S. 285 in Colorado, plus maybe Walsenburg on I-25, and Kremmling on U.S. 40. Glacier will finally be semi-accessible, with an SC in the Kalispell - W. Glacier area (plus the three on I-25 in Helena, Great Falls and Shelby that were on the 2016 map), and Kayenta has also rolled over. Looks like there may be one coming around Payson, AZ too - I would have thought Globe and Show Low would also show up around the same time.

Click to expand...

Here on my turf I'm surprised and pleased to see Salida and Alamosa on the map. Salida will serve as a backup when rock slides close I-70 and Alamosa opens up the San Luis Valley (Great Sand Dunes NP) as well as US 160 between I-25 and Durango (Farmington Supercharger Station). Those are major routes for locals as well as visitors. They've also got a couple in northern Colorado in the Winter Park and Steamboat Springs (or Craig) area. And, in addition to my much hoped-for Kayenta, I notice that I-25 in New Mexico and I-10 and I-80 would be finished off. Some of those are already in the works, as you know. There are also many more locations in California, presumably to deal with congestion there. And the Seattle area gets some Supercharger Stations, at last; I had to charge on L2 for a visit to Kirkland last spring; my hosts live in a high-rise condo there so no destination charging.

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Maybe more important for you, did you notice that they're going (we hope) to infill I-84, shortening some of the legs that we talked about? Burley/Rupert, plus I'm guessing Mountain Home and probably Ontario, OR; all are obvious, and needed.

I'd really like to see them in both Cortez (gateway to Mesa Verde, and a good distance from both Moab and Kayenta) and Durango, plus do something about U.S. 50 (Montrose & Gunnison plus Poncha Springs/Salida), and/or move the Montrose one down to Ridgway, although I'd think that would make GJT to Gunnison (127 miles + elevation) difficult in winter. Montrose - Durango strikes me as a bit far (107 miles) in winter given the passes, but you'd have a better handle on that than I do. I do think it would benefit from an SC in Silverton or maybe Ouray if Ridgway isn't available, but given the option I always prefer putting SCs at junctions, as that's generally the most convenient as well as the least expensive choice.

GRA said:

scottf200 said:

Re: GRA: mainly the 2016 map retitled
I don't think so. There are considerably more dots on the 2017 than the planned 2016.
I created this from saved image. not perfect but a reasonable way to view it.
planned-2016-vs-planned-2017

Click to expand...

Sure there are a lot more dots, although the majority of them seem to be infill on existing routes rather than expansion; both are needed. Hopefully someone on TMC has the patience to count all of the new ones.

Click to expand...

Haha. Well I was just pointing out it is considerably different than your "mainly the 2016 map" statement. Looks like there are at least another 120-150 additional dots. Filling in some diagonal routes as well as Model 3 or S60s. Just stare at a few of the W, S, lower midwest, E states to see several dots added to most states.

GRA said:

Maybe more important for you, did you notice that they're going (we hope) to infill I-84, shortening some of the legs that we talked about? Burley/Rupert, plus I'm guessing Mountain Home and probably Ontario, OR; all are obvious, and needed.

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No, I didn't notice that, thanks for mentioning it. That would be helpful for my old slow charging S60; I make the trip to Portland and Seattle once a year (in 2017 I plan to do it in August for the eclipse).

I'd really like to see them in both Cortez (gateway to Mesa Verde, and a good distance from both Moab and Kayenta) and Durango, plus do something about U.S. 50 (Montrose & Gunnison plus Poncha Springs/Salida), and/or move the Montrose one down to Ridgway, although I'd think that would make GJT to Gunnison (127 miles + elevation) difficult in winter. Montrose - Durango strikes me as a bit far (107 miles) in winter given the passes, but you'd have a better handle on that than I do. I do think it would benefit from an SC in Silverton or maybe Ouray if Ridgway isn't available, but given the option I always prefer putting SCs at junctions, as that's generally the most convenient as well as the least expensive choice.

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Montrose to Durango is actually pretty easy because the speeds between Ouray and Silverton are very low and lead to great range despite the huge elevation changes. I could easily do Farmington to Montrose in my S60, for example. But Durango is too near to Farmington to make a Supercharger Station worthwhile until they are really filling in secondary routes. I do like the idea of one at Cortez since Mesa Verde NP is difficult from Blanding or Farmington without destination charging, due to the long access road inside the park.

I know that Montrose would like to host a Supercharger Station (I know the guy who got the L2 EVSE installed there) but it seems rather close to Grand Junction. Gunnison might be better for US 50 over Monarch Pass: although a bit long at 126 miles, Gunnison to Grand Junction would be fairly easy. But Montrose is a crossroads and Montrose to Salida, at 129 miles plus Monarch Pass, is doable. Ridgway would open up Telluride and Lizard Head Pass, especially with Cortez on the other end. But my local town of Ridgway is a tiny place; some amenities and places to visit but no chain restaurants or stores or things like that. Ouray is also small but would be a very attractive place for a Supercharger Station: it is gorgeous with lots of places to visit and explore but it isn't a crossroads, as you say.

These are all designated scenic highways, as you know, and get a lot of tourist traffic in summer. But they seem a bit lower on the priority scale than other major routes elsewhere.

dgpcolorado said:

GRA said:

I'd really like to see them in both Cortez (gateway to Mesa Verde, and a good distance from both Moab and Kayenta) and Durango, plus do something about U.S. 50 (Montrose & Gunnison plus Poncha Springs/Salida), and/or move the Montrose one down to Ridgway, although I'd think that would make GJT to Gunnison (127 miles + elevation) difficult in winter. Montrose - Durango strikes me as a bit far (107 miles) in winter given the passes, but you'd have a better handle on that than I do. I do think it would benefit from an SC in Silverton or maybe Ouray if Ridgway isn't available, but given the option I always prefer putting SCs at junctions, as that's generally the most convenient as well as the least expensive choice.

Click to expand...

Montrose to Durango is actually pretty easy because the speeds between Ouray and Silverton are very low and lead to great range despite the huge elevation changes. I could easily do Farmington to Montrose in my S60, for example. But Durango is too near to Farmington to make a Supercharger Station worthwhile until they are really filling in secondary routes. I do like the idea of one at Cortez since Mesa Verde NP is difficult from Blanding or Farmington without destination charging, due to the long access road inside the park.

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I was thinking the main benefit from Durango would be for people heading east on 160 to Alamosa. OTOH, they'll also eventually need SCs in Pagosa Springs and South Fork; the first is 104 miles from Cortez, the 2nd 149, but only 104 from Durango. All three will be needed eventually.

dgpcolorado said:

I know that Montrose would like to host a Supercharger Station (I know the guy who got the L2 EVSE installed there) but it seems rather close to Grand Junction. Gunnison might be better for US 50 over Monarch Pass: although a bit long at 126 miles, Gunnison to Grand Junction would be fairly easy. But Montrose is a crossroads and Montrose to Salida, at 129 miles plus Monarch Pass, is doable. Ridgway would open up Telluride and Lizard Head Pass, especially with Cortez on the other end. But my local town of Ridgway is a tiny place; some amenities and places to visit but no chain restaurants or stores or things like that. Ouray is also small but would be a very attractive place for a Supercharger Station: it is gorgeous with lots of places to visit and explore but it isn't a crossroads, as you say.

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The bolded section is my main reason for suggesting Ridgway. I prefer South Fork to Pagosa Springs for a similar reason, enabling Gunnison - South Fork via 149. OTOH, Pagosa Springs will be wanted for travel to/from Taos; at least they've got a permit for Santa Fe now, but Taos will definitely be needed too.

dgpcolorado said:

These are all designated scenic highways, as you know, and get a lot of tourist traffic in summer. But they seem a bit lower on the priority scale than other major routes elsewhere.

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Yes, and that really needs to change. EV tourism is a definite thing, and I was very disappointed that Tesla didn't take advantage of the NPS Centennial this year and put some extra effort into enabling SC access to major national parks/monuments as well as other major tourist destinations. As it was, only West Yellowstone (and the Pocatello/Idaho Falls connectors) were completed in time for the summer vacation season, with Jackson, Groveland and Fish Camp all completing well afterwards. Instead, they did U.S 95 between Reno and LVG, FWTW.

scottf200 said:

GRA said:

scottf200 said:

Re: GRA: mainly the 2016 map retitled
I don't think so. There are considerably more dots on the 2017 than the planned 2016.
I created this from saved image. not perfect but a reasonable way to view it.
planned-2016-vs-planned-2017

Click to expand...

Sure there are a lot more dots, although the majority of them seem to be infill on existing routes rather than expansion; both are needed. Hopefully someone on TMC has the patience to count all of the new ones.

Click to expand...

Haha. Well I was just pointing out it is considerably different than your "mainly the 2016 map" statement. Looks like there are at least another 120-150 additional dots. Filling in some diagonal routes as well as Model 3 or S60s. Just stare at a few of the W, S, lower midwest, E states to see several dots added to most states.

Click to expand...

To be clear, my "mainly the 2016 map" statement referred to routes rather than SCs. At this time I believe they need to get the major interstate routes to initial completion, and only then start infilling for density while simultaneously putting a lot more effort into expanding new routes, especially the off-interstate, scenic/recreational ones.

As far as counting new dots, at least one person on TMC has done it each of the past years, so I have hopes - I certainly don't have the patience! But we should all know by now that Tesla is a lot better at putting new dots on year maps than completing the actual SCs, so however many new dots are on the map, everyone should apply their own personal Tesla B.S. multiplier to arrive at how many are likely to appear by the end of the year - mine is around 0.6 - 0.7.

Where the SCs are is just as important as the total numbers. While they probably will complete somewhere in the neighborhood of 70-80% of the total number of dots that appeared on the 2016 map, looking at their performance on major E-W routes as an example, they had forecast completion of I-10, 20, 30, 40, 44, 64, 80, 90, and 94 - they actually completed I-44 and I-90, or just over 22%. Major N-S interstate route completions were similarly underwhelming.

Peak travel times are problematic

https://www.yahoo.com/tech/long-lines-tesla-superchargers-holiday-travel-swamps-system-172109043.html

They should bring out some diesel powered mobile units

LTLFTcomposite said:

Peak travel times are problematic

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This is also true in a general sense. Travel is just generally harder at peak times. Where I live, for example, we are normally a 25 minute drive from the base of the mountain. Now, however, during the peak week between Christmas and New Year's, the drive can easily take three hours or longer. Everyone wants to see the snow, ski/snowboard at the resorts, or visit Santa's Village (a newly-reopened theme park).

With respect to SuperCharger congestion, while growing sales of Tesla vehicles are obviously a challenge, there are some very helpful trends:

1. Faster SuperCharging. Elon Musk recently tweeted that "SuperCharger V3" will be extraordinarily fast, capable of more than 350 kW of power. I expect this will only be available on new vehicles starting at some unknown, future date, and at only a fraction of SC sites. However, even with current vehicles, there's room to further improve average SC speeds by increasing the power available to each SuperCharger pair.

2. More SuperChargers. Some Tesla owners were reportedly able to bypass the wait at Barstow, CA by charging at Primm, NV and Rancho Cucamonga, CA. This wasn't an option in the early days. And by adding more SuperChargers on key corridors, Tesla has reduced congestion at individual sites. A number of us are hoping for an SC at Baker, CA (between Barstow and Primm), for instance.

3. More vehicle range. By improving vehicle efficiency and selling vehicles with larger battery sizes, Tesla is helping to reduce the need for Supercharger stops. With our Model S 85, for example, we can drive from our home to Las Vegas on a single charge, provided I don't have too much of a lead foot, and we can make it home from Primm, NV on a charge. Likewise, we can make a round trip to/from Los Angeles without stopping to charge.

4. More destination charging. Tesla has been subsidizing the installation of L2 charging stations at various locations, and PlugShare shows a growing number of other options. Getting a full charge at one's destination is immensely helpful in avoiding some SuperCharger stops!

Speaking of high traffic time line ups. We were at Costco today for a roast chicken run. Palm Springs. We were in our smart ED. Couldn't figure out why the traffic was stopped coming into costco off of the main road. Then we realized that the line up, two cars wide and feeding 8 lanes of gas pumps extended 30 to 40 cars out into the street. My guess, minimum 1 hour wait to get gas. It's usually bad, maybe 20 to 30 minutes, but this was nuts. How much do they save at costco gas. Is it really that much? Glad we are a totally electric family. I'll happily plug in my car before I go to bed tonight.

A somewhat-related issue, via GCR:

Waits for Tesla service get longer as more electric cars are sold

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http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1107894_waits-for-tesla-service-get-longer-as-more-electric-cars-are-sold

My 2013 Tesla Model S is now approaching 75,000 miles on the odometer.

That happens to be the mileage benchmark for my next scheduled Tesla service. So I called my local Tesla service center, in Paramus, New Jersey, to set up the appointment.

No problem, the service rep said. The first available slot is...a month from now. Whoa. . . .

My story is not unusual. As the number of Teslas on the road—both the Model S and the now ramped-up Model X—grows rapidly, the number of Tesla service centers is not keeping pace. The result is long wait times for service in many parts of the country. . . .

An enterprising Model S owner on the TMC Forum, Troy, has assembled statistics that show how the problem has developed over the past three years. According to Troy, in the fourth quarter of 2013—nine months after I took delivery of my car—there were about 21,000 Teslas on U.S. roads and 43 U.S. service centers to take care of them. That’s a ratio of 488 cars per service center. Since then, the Tesla fleet has swelled, while the number of service centers has—well, not so much.

By the end of the September 2016, the numbers were 95,000 cars and 61 service centers. That’s a ratio of 1,552 cars per service center—more than triple the service load of three years ago. According to Troy’s numbers, since early 2013, the U.S. Tesla fleet has grown by 450 percent, while the number of service centers has increased by 42 percent.

California’s numbers are even worse: as of Q3 2016, there were 39,000 cars and 19 service centers. That’s a ratio of more than 2,000 cars per service center. Or consider just the city of San Diego: 4,000 cars, one service center. . . .

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This is not a good trend.

Of course that all depends on the rate at which owners bring their cars in for service and the capacity of each service center (not unlike the no new refineries in the last 30 years farce)

The familiar refrain that EVs hardly need any service really is a crock, any hopes of realizing that flew out the window when they added in esoteric features like pop out door handles and falcon wing doors. Not to mention with a Tesla nobody is going to go to independent shops for much of anything.

webeleafowners said:

Speaking of high traffic time line ups. We were at Costco today for a roast chicken run. Palm Springs. We were in our smart ED. Couldn't figure out why the traffic was stopped coming into costco off of the main road. Then we realized that the line up, two cars wide and feeding 8 lanes of gas pumps extended 30 to 40 cars out into the street. My guess, minimum 1 hour wait to get gas. It's usually bad, maybe 20 to 30 minutes, but this was nuts. How much do they save at costco gas. Is it really that much? Glad we are a totally electric family. I'll happily plug in my car before I go to bed tonight.

Click to expand...

This was mentioned on Electrek, and I mused that saving $0.50-$1.00 wasn't worth waiting even 10 minutes, let alone 20+. If I get paid minimum wage, which is $8.50/hr, That's $0.142/minute. That means waiting for 20 minutes better save me more than $2.83. Obviously I don't make minimum wage though. For those of us making median income, we'd need to save over $9 in order to break even on a 20 minute wait.

Of course, for us EV owners, we just plug in at home. lol. (With exception for the long trips for the Telsa Superchargers mentioned in the original post.)

Durandal said:

webeleafowners said:

Speaking of high traffic time line ups. We were at Costco today for a roast chicken run. Palm Springs. We were in our smart ED. Couldn't figure out why the traffic was stopped coming into costco off of the main road. Then we realized that the line up, two cars wide and feeding 8 lanes of gas pumps extended 30 to 40 cars out into the street. My guess, minimum 1 hour wait to get gas. It's usually bad, maybe 20 to 30 minutes, but this was nuts. How much do they save at costco gas. Is it really that much? Glad we are a totally electric family. I'll happily plug in my car before I go to bed tonight.

Click to expand...

This was mentioned on Electrek, and I mused that saving $0.50-$1.00 wasn't worth waiting even 10 minutes, let alone 20+. If I get paid minimum wage, which is $8.50/hr, That's $0.142/minute. That means waiting for 20 minutes better save me more than $2.83. Obviously I don't make minimum wage though. For those of us making median income, we'd need to save over $9 in order to break even on a 20 minute wait.

Of course, for us EV owners, we just plug in at home. lol. (With exception for the long trips for the Telsa Superchargers mentioned in the original post.)

Click to expand...

Yep. And like I say, this was a 1 hour line up for sure. Wow

Loveland CO on I-25 and Brush CO on I-76 have opened in the last couple of days.

Durandal said:

webeleafowners said:

Speaking of high traffic time line ups. We were at Costco today for a roast chicken run. Palm Springs. We were in our smart ED. Couldn't figure out why the traffic was stopped coming into costco off of the main road. Then we realized that the line up, two cars wide and feeding 8 lanes of gas pumps extended 30 to 40 cars out into the street. My guess, minimum 1 hour wait to get gas. It's usually bad, maybe 20 to 30 minutes, but this was nuts. How much do they save at costco gas. Is it really that much? Glad we are a totally electric family. I'll happily plug in my car before I go to bed tonight.

Click to expand...

This was mentioned on Electrek, and I mused that saving $0.50-$1.00 wasn't worth waiting even 10 minutes, let alone 20+. If I get paid minimum wage, which is $8.50/hr, That's $0.142/minute. That means waiting for 20 minutes better save me more than $2.83. Obviously I don't make minimum wage though. For those of us making median income, we'd need to save over $9 in order to break even on a 20 minute wait.

Of course, for us EV owners, we just plug in at home. lol. (With exception for the long trips for the Telsa Superchargers mentioned in the original post.)

Click to expand...

I have never understood this argument since these people waiting in line do not then work less, but I agree that most people value their off-work time at more than $1 an hour.

dgpcolorado said:

Loveland CO on I-25 and Brush CO on I-76 have opened in the last couple of days.

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Loveland, CO one has 10 stalls too. Nice.

A couple other USA ones opened on New Years Day.

Below via: https://supercharge.info/