Volkswagen Group Massive Emissions Fraud Scheme

The funny part in all this is the owners weren't really the ones harmed, with the possible exception of those who for some personal reasons had to trade vehicles during the period of uncertainty. The ones who were harmed is society as a whole, owners who didn't panic come up smelling like a rose.

Aside from assuaging some false sense of aggrievment, what people hope to accomplish by littering their back yards with parts for cars that won't be in circulation any more is beyond me.

I picked up a Leaf a couple of weeks ago and turned in my Jetta on Friday.

While I didn't strip anything out of it, the battery was completely dead and something was up with the glow plug system so when it was cold it was almost impossible to start.

When I drove it in the dealership was fine with that. I certainly wasn't going to spend money fixing a car I was about to give away.

wikki said:

I picked up a Leaf a couple of weeks ago and turned in my Jetta on Friday.

While I didn't strip anything out of it, the battery was completely dead and something was up with the glow plug system so when it was cold it was almost impossible to start.

When I drove it in the dealership was fine with that. I certainly wasn't going to spend money fixing a car I was about to give away.

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So VW is already buying cars back? I have all my papers in and am waiting for their email setting up an appointment to come in. How long did you wait?
I would have preferred that the U.S. govt simply fined VW for every diesel sold, and grandfathered present owners. I would keep my Jetta TDI forever.
Germany has been conducting extensive tests, and found that all the ICE cars on their roads, gas and diesel, are emitting far more in actual operation than they do in testing (gee, imagine that).
Why the American witch hunt, unless it is either a hunt for deep pockets or a vendetta against VW for displacing GM as world leader? GM slid by with their deadly ignition switches, as did Toyota with their runaway throttles, but VW is being crucified for a defect (yeah, I know that they cheated) that hasn't cost a single life.

craig said:

VW is being crucified for a defect (yeah, I know that they cheated) that hasn't cost a single life.

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Air pollution kills.

Breaking news from 1952. Ok, a bit stale. 4000 dead in 4 days.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Smog_of_London

craig said:

but VW is being crucified for a defect (yeah, I know that they cheated) that hasn't cost a single life.

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Study: Volkswagen’s emissions cheat to cause 60 premature deaths in U.S.:
http://news.mit.edu/2015/volkswagen-emissions-cheat-cause-60-premature-deaths-1029

There are more details in the article.

Judge warns Volkswagen diesel owners to stop stripping their cars of parts:
http://www.autoblog.com/2016/12/23/judge-volkswagen-diesel-stripping-car/

cwerdna said:

craig said:

but VW is being crucified for a defect (yeah, I know that they cheated) that hasn't cost a single life.

Click to expand...

Study: Volkswagen’s emissions cheat to cause 60 premature deaths in U.S.:
http://news.mit.edu/2015/volkswagen-emissions-cheat-cause-60-premature-deaths-1029

There are more details in the article.

Judge warns Volkswagen diesel owners to stop stripping their cars of parts:
http://www.autoblog.com/2016/12/23/judge-volkswagen-diesel-stripping-car/

Click to expand...

There is one huge thing that NOBODY in the media takes into account.
Due to the fact VW cheated with NOx emissions the overall emissions (well to wheel) are reduced.
And the overall emission reduction outweighs NOx.
Very shortly: due to weaker after treatment of exhaust gases fuel consumption is reduced a LOT.
More than 10%. Due to that much less CO2 (and all other pollutants, excluding NOx) are being emit.
That does include everything BEFORE vehicle, like emission due to reduced fuel consumption.
That includes crude oil production emission. Fuel transportation emission. And even vehicle production emissions.

There is an equilibrium of exhaust gas treatment. Tipping that means doing more harm than good.

arnis said:

There is one huge thing that NOBODY in the media takes into account.
Due to the fact VW cheated with NOx emissions the overall emissions (well to wheel) are reduced.
And the overall emission reduction outweighs NOx.
Very shortly: due to weaker after treatment of exhaust gases fuel consumption is reduced a LOT.
More than 10%. Due to that much less CO2 (and all other pollutants, excluding NOx) are being emit.
That does include everything BEFORE vehicle, like emission due to reduced fuel consumption.
That includes crude oil production emission. Fuel transportation emission. And even vehicle production emissions.

There is an equilibrium of exhaust gas treatment. Tipping that means doing more harm than good.

Click to expand...

Clearly, then, VW should be commended for deliberately violating U.S. and other countries' pollution laws, an act of civic virtue that's gone sadly unrewarded (except for all those cars that they would otherwise have been unable to sell for a decade or so).

craig said:

Germany has been conducting extensive tests, and found that all the ICE cars on their roads, gas and diesel, are emitting far more in actual operation than they do in testing (gee, imagine that).

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Reference ? Or are you perhaps referring to gas (petrol) direct injection engines ?

In any case, until ALL models are tested your statement is an over reach.

SageBrush said:

craig said:

Germany has been conducting extensive tests, and found that all the ICE cars on their roads, gas and diesel, are emitting far more in actual operation than they do in testing (gee, imagine that).

Click to expand...

Reference ? Or are you perhaps referring to gas (petrol) direct injection engines ?

In any case, until ALL models are tested your statement is an over reach.

Click to expand...

And that is mostly done.
http://www.theicct.org/real-world-exhaust-emissions-modern-diesel-cars
http://www.theicct.org/news/press-release-new-icct-study-shows-real-world-exhaust-emissions-modern-diesel-cars-seven-times


It all boils down to the promise how fuel efficient the vehicle is and that it gets worse as vehicles get older.
All pollution data is taken from those lab tests mostly.
As we all know lab tests are not real world tests. As vehicles usually consume much more than promised
the also give as much more pollution as promised.

arnis said:

SageBrush said:

craig said:

Germany has been conducting extensive tests, and found that all the ICE cars on their roads, gas and diesel, are emitting far more in actual operation than they do in testing (gee, imagine that).

Click to expand...

Reference ? Or are you perhaps referring to gas (petrol) direct injection engines ?

In any case, until ALL models are tested your statement is an over reach.

Click to expand...

And that is mostly done.
http://www.theicct.org/real-world-exhaust-emissions-modern-diesel-cars
http://www.theicct.org/news/press-release-new-icct-study-shows-real-world-exhaust-emissions-modern-diesel-cars-seven-times


It all boils down to the promise how fuel efficient the vehicle is and that it gets worse as vehicles get older.
All pollution data is taken from those lab tests mostly.
As we all know lab tests are not real world tests. As vehicles usually consume much more than promised
the also give as much more pollution as promised.

Click to expand...

The two ICCT studies you reference are studies of diesel cars. Your original statement said ALL the ICE cars [pollute far more on the road than in testing]. I hope you realize that petrol cars are also ICE.

The story of VW in the dirty diesel world stands out for two reasons (besides fraud):
1. Diesel is dirty, but VW diesel is filthy.
2. The fraud was not perpetrated to pass EPA (as the other diesel models demonstrate,) but because ongoing use of the pollution control devices in VW vehicles would lead to high failure rates of those devices and warranty costs. It is amusing (and not a little sad) that even in the VW forums only a handful of people* understand the real issue that caused diesel to be a failure for VW and extend to diesel in general: reliable, inexpensive and effective pollution control of diesel combustion has not been invented. VW tried to continue business with 0.5 of 3 aspects solved while the other manufacturers are at 1.5 of 3.

*the large majority are mired in conspiracy theories that the EPA is "out to get them."

As vehicles usually consume much more than promised the[y] also give as much more pollution as promised.

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You live in a world divorced from reality. Real world MPG spans the range of +/- 20% of EPA for 95% of cars on the road today. VW pollution is 25x the maximum EPA allowed. A Prius emits ~ 10% of allowable EPA criteria pollutants and all the SULEV rated cars emit ~ 30% or less of allowable EPA.

Are you following the arithmetic ? It would take 250 Prius to match the NOx emissions of One VW TDI. "Real World" MPG of the Prius is ~ 48 MPG as self-reported on aggregation websites. That is 96% of EPA.

SageBrush said:

arnis said:

Reference ? Or are you perhaps referring to gas (petrol) direct injection engines ?

In any case, until ALL models are tested your statement is an over reach.

Click to expand...

And that is mostly done.
http://www.theicct.org/real-world-exhaust-emissions-modern-diesel-cars
http://www.theicct.org/news/press-release-new-icct-study-shows-real-world-exhaust-emissions-modern-diesel-cars-seven-times


It all boils down to the promise how fuel efficient the vehicle is and that it gets worse as vehicles get older.
All pollution data is taken from those lab tests mostly.
As we all know lab tests are not real world tests. As vehicles usually consume much more than promised
the also give as much more pollution as promised.

Click to expand...

The two ICCT studies you reference are studies of diesel cars. Your original statement said ALL the ICE cars [pollute far more on the road than in testing]. I hope you realize that petrol cars are also ICE.

The story of VW in the dirty diesel world stands out for two reasons (besides fraud):
1. Diesel is dirty, but VW diesel is filthy.
2. The fraud was not perpetrated to pass EPA (as the other diesel models demonstrate,) but because ongoing use of the pollution control devices in VW vehicles would lead to high failure rates of those devices and warranty costs. It is amusing (and not a little sad) that even in the VW forums only a handful of people* understand the real issue that caused diesel to be a failure for VW and extend to diesel in general: reliable, inexpensive and effective pollution control of diesel combustion has not been invented. VW tried to continue business with 0.5 of 3 aspects solved while the other manufacturers are at 1.5 of 3.

*the large majority are mired in conspiracy theories that the EPA is "out to get them."

As vehicles usually consume much more than promised the[y] also give as much more pollution as promised.

Click to expand...

[/quote]You live in a world divorced from reality. Real world MPG spans the range of +/- 20% of EPA for 95% of cars on the road today. VW pollution is 25x the maximum EPA allowed. A Prius emits ~ 4% of allowable EPA NOx and all the SULEV rated cars emit ~ 30% or less of allowable EPA.

Are you following the arithmetic ? It would take 625** Prius to match the NOx emissions of One VW TDI. "Real World" MPG of the Prius is ~ 48 MPG as self-reported on aggregation websites. That is 96% of EPA.

** The actual numbers for NOx:
VW 1500 - 2000 mg/mile per ICCT
Prius 3 mg/mile

Vehicle emission testing for diesel and gasoline is the same. Same procedure.
To sum up: VW 40x more than allowed, everybody else on average 7x more than allowed.
And also all other pollutants are out of specs, including CO2. DIesel and gasoline.

Problem was not with pollution control reliability. It was about weight and cost.
Lean trap is not working enough. VW or not, it is not working well enough to get down
to specs needed. SCR does work but requires urea system. Weight etc.

craig said:

wikki said:

I picked up a Leaf a couple of weeks ago and turned in my Jetta on Friday.

While I didn't strip anything out of it, the battery was completely dead and something was up with the glow plug system so when it was cold it was almost impossible to start.

When I drove it in the dealership was fine with that. I certainly wasn't going to spend money fixing a car I was about to give away.

Click to expand...

So VW is already buying cars back? I have all my papers in and am waiting for their email setting up an appointment to come in. How long did you wait?
I would have preferred that the U.S. govt simply fined VW for every diesel sold, and grandfathered present owners. I would keep my Jetta TDI forever.
Germany has been conducting extensive tests, and found that all the ICE cars on their roads, gas and diesel, are emitting far more in actual operation than they do in testing (gee, imagine that).
Why the American witch hunt, unless it is either a hunt for deep pockets or a vendetta against VW for displacing GM as world leader? GM slid by with their deadly ignition switches, as did Toyota with their runaway throttles, but VW is being crucified for a defect (yeah, I know that they cheated) that hasn't cost a single life.

Click to expand...

I submitted my documentation on the day the settlement was approved. I think that was back in October. It took until Dec 17th to finally get my appointment.

Here's a blog post about the VW group. I'm sure it would be interesting if I could only figure out what is says. (It appears to be a bad machine translation from t-online.de.) Some excerpts:

Headline:

German Economy Online said:

Piech: Chinese want to VW-group purchase

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Something here for GRA, methinks:

German Economy Online said:

The car was “at the end,” he said to the “FAS” and called for more rail transport and the Expansion of public transport: “We need to have more reasonable solutions for transport. To be we’re finally, green!”

Click to expand...

Certainly this concluding paragraph sums it all up:

German Economy Online said:

“Despite all the challenges we taxes on a good delivery result at the end of the year,” said group head of sales at Fred Kappler. “November was a strong month for all our group brands.” The most vigorous to grow the VW-transport division, with an increase of 27.3 percent, followed by Porsche with 11.7 per cent and Skoda with 9.6 percent. The Truck-daughters Scania and MAN were not really on the spot.

Click to expand...

My best guess is that it says an heir of the Porsche family who no longer owns shares in the VW group thinks the Chinese may want to purchase the beleaguered automaker.

FBI arrests Volkswagen executive on fraud charges: NYT

The Federal Bureau of Investigation has arrested a Volkswagen AG (VOWG_p.DE) executive on charges of conspiracy to defraud the United States, the New York Times reported on Monday.

Oliver Schmidt, who headed the company's regulatory compliance office in the U.S. from 2014 to March 2015, was arrested on Saturday by federal investigators in Florida, the newspaper said, citing people familiar with the matter. nyti.ms/2iTA73S

VW admitted in September 2015 to installing secret software known as "defeat devices" in 475,000 U.S. 2.0-liter diesel cars to cheat exhaust emissions tests and make them appear cleaner in testing. In reality, the vehicles emitted up to 40 times the legally allowable pollution levels.

Volkswagen declined to comment on the reported arrest...

Click to expand...

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-volkswagen-usa-idUSKBN14T0JA?feedType=RSS&feedName=businessNews&utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+reuters%2FbusinessNews+%28Business+News%29

edatoakrun said:

FBI arrests Volkswagen executive on fraud charges: NYT

The Federal Bureau of Investigation has arrested a Volkswagen AG (VOWG_p.DE) executive on charges of conspiracy to defraud the United States, the New York Times reported on Monday.

Oliver Schmidt, who headed the company's regulatory compliance office in the U.S. from 2014 to March 2015, was arrested on Saturday by federal investigators in Florida, the newspaper said, citing people familiar with the matter. nyti.ms/2iTA73S

VW admitted in September 2015 to installing secret software known as "defeat devices" in 475,000 U.S. 2.0-liter diesel cars to cheat exhaust emissions tests and make them appear cleaner in testing. In reality, the vehicles emitted up to 40 times the legally allowable pollution levels.

Volkswagen declined to comment on the reported arrest...

Click to expand...

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-volkswagen-usa-idUSKBN14T0JA?feedType=RSS&feedName=businessNews&utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+reuters%2FbusinessNews+%28Business+News%29

Click to expand...

Good news. I hope there are more to come. Far too long companies have simply paid penalties instead of facing criminal charges. I'd love to see arrests over oil spills to start, as well.

Durandal said:

edatoakrun said:

FBI arrests Volkswagen executive on fraud charges: NYT

The Federal Bureau of Investigation has arrested a Volkswagen AG (VOWG_p.DE) executive on charges of conspiracy to defraud the United States, the New York Times reported on Monday.

Oliver Schmidt, who headed the company's regulatory compliance office in the U.S. from 2014 to March 2015, was arrested on Saturday by federal investigators in Florida, the newspaper said, citing people familiar with the matter. nyti.ms/2iTA73S

VW admitted in September 2015 to installing secret software known as "defeat devices" in 475,000 U.S. 2.0-liter diesel cars to cheat exhaust emissions tests and make them appear cleaner in testing. In reality, the vehicles emitted up to 40 times the legally allowable pollution levels.

Volkswagen declined to comment on the reported arrest...

Click to expand...

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-volkswagen-usa-idUSKBN14T0JA?feedType=RSS&feedName=businessNews&utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+reuters%2FbusinessNews+%28Business+News%29

Click to expand...

Good news. I hope there are more to come. Far too long companies have simply paid penalties instead of facing criminal charges. I'd love to see arrests over oil spills to start, as well.

Click to expand...

How is this good news ?

Car manufacturers have on many occasions built cars that have actually killed people and not being prosecuted.

The Emissions scandal has not killed anyone.

Diesel exhaust kills.

http://www.bizjournals.com/portland/blog/sbo/2016/05/oregon-environmental-council-diesel-exhaust-kills.html
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/motoring/car-manufacturers/volkswagen/11899676/The-statistics-about-diesel-are-crystal-clear.-Its-deadly.html

In other words, if diesel emissions are 40x greater than permitted by law (which are supposedly safe levels) then yes, they've killed.

Durandal said:

Diesel exhaust kills.

http://www.bizjournals.com/portland/blog/sbo/2016/05/oregon-environmental-council-diesel-exhaust-kills.html
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/motoring/car-manufacturers/volkswagen/11899676/The-statistics-about-diesel-are-crystal-clear.-Its-deadly.html

In other words, if diesel emissions are 40x greater than permitted by law (which are supposedly safe levels) then yes, they've killed.

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what's good for the Goose !!! Don't just come after one , go after all the manufacturers that create bad designs or where there are design flaws which create a situation where people are killed.

Well in a case where there are prosecutions there needs to be evidence of these deaths.

A fine they deserve but prosecution is excessive to say the least.

Durandal said:

In other words, if diesel emissions are 40x greater than permitted by law (which are supposedly safe levels) then yes, they've killed.

Click to expand...

This reminds me of the various Star Trek crises where the Enterprise's audio alerts have counted down to a "Fatal radiation exposure in five seconds" warning before the critical shield repair is done and everyone heaves a vast, "Wow, that was close; five more seconds' worth of XYZ rays and we'd have been toast!" sigh of relief and goes back to their cheerful business without needing so much as an aspirin.

Based on my comprehensive twenty seconds of Googling, the emissions standard limits are in units of "mass per brake-horsepower hour". Even knowing that a diesel's emissions have exceed these guidelines, you'd have a hard time making a charge of murder stick against its makers. Particularly since operating a diesel lawnmower that exceeded the limits would get you way less exposure, maybe, than working in a rail switchyard full of fully-compliant locomotives