Nissan: We Can Match Bolt

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.[/quote]
Nissan is not an innovative electric car company; They are, like many of the legacy auto companies, choosing to run center pack after a strong thrust into EVs initially and using DOE money to build EV/ICEV duel factories, they backed off and chose to go to sleep until everyone caught up and Tesla started pushing. Nissan's policies are based on what they know and that's ICEVs which easily explains their lack of investment and thus advancement in timely improving the range of their batteries. It also explains their decision to not offer upgraded batteries for their older model Leafs...they simply don't want to be bothered by customers.[/quote]


Very true.
 
I'm not impressed with Nissan as a car company either - or especially as an EV builder. However, it's hard to blame them for the American public's nearly complete indifference to the Leaf, and to similar EVs. They could have tried more and better advertising, but I doubt it would have made any difference in the mediocre sales of the car. Low gas prices, combined with the political polarization of the country, make this a poor place to try to sell EVs, outside of the luxury market. Maybe that will change with the Model 3, but I wouldn't bet my bank account on that happening.
 
LeftieBiker said:
I'm not impressed with Nissan as a car company either - or especially as an EV builder. However, it's hard to blame them for the American public's nearly complete indifference to the Leaf, and to similar EVs. They could have tried more and better advertising, but I doubt it would have made any difference in the mediocre sales of the car. Low gas prices, combined with the political polarization of the country, make this a poor place to try to sell EVs, outside of the luxury market. Maybe that will change with the Model 3, but I wouldn't bet my bank account on that happening.

I am impressed with Nissan as an EV builder. They got the first mass production EV on the market, and it is a respectable car. Sure, you can list a bunch of problems and shortcomings. I'm not claiming greatness or perfection. The Leaf is a good car, and not a great car. It broke ground, got EVs into lots of people's hands. A lot of those people will look for a new EV, not a new car, when they go to replace the Leaf.

The next generation EVs will make the Leaf V1 look not very good. Bolt, with more than twice the range, will fit a lot more people's needs than the Leaf could. Better battery life, better looks, larger motor, probably more interior space, more fancy features, and so on. Tesla Model3, BMW, Ford, VW, and maybe more.

Will Leaf V2 match this competition? I don't know. I'll wish them good luck, and thanks for the Leaf. I've enjoyed owning one, and may do so for many years.
 
WetEV said:
LeftieBiker said:
I'm not impressed with Nissan as a car company either - or especially as an EV builder. However, it's hard to blame them for the American public's nearly complete indifference to the Leaf, and to similar EVs. They could have tried more and better advertising, but I doubt it would have made any difference in the mediocre sales of the car. Low gas prices, combined with the political polarization of the country, make this a poor place to try to sell EVs, outside of the luxury market. Maybe that will change with the Model 3, but I wouldn't bet my bank account on that happening.

I am impressed with Nissan as an EV builder. They got the first mass production EV on the market, and it is a respectable car. Sure, you can list a bunch of problems and shortcomings. I'm not claiming greatness or perfection. The Leaf is a good car, and not a great car. It broke ground, got EVs into lots of people's hands. A lot of those people will look for a new EV, not a new car, when they go to replace the Leaf.

The next generation EVs will make the Leaf V1 look not very good. Bolt, with more than twice the range, will fit a lot more people's needs than the Leaf could. Better battery life, better looks, larger motor, probably more interior space, more fancy features, and so on. Tesla Model3, BMW, Ford, VW, and maybe more.

Will Leaf V2 match this competition? I don't know. I'll wish them good luck, and thanks for the Leaf. I've enjoyed owning one, and may do so for many years.

+1. Sure the LEAF could have been better from day one but its undeniable that it IS getting better every day. This I can accept. Every year since 2013 has had improvements so waiting to see what 2017 brings.

I will be in the market for another EV in December and if nothing changes, it will be another LEAF. There is no better option out there but we already know that several changes are supposed to be here in 6 months. Will they really? I guess we will find out soon enough.

After all; what product version 1.0 was awesome? Right now the biggest knock on the LEAF as I see it is price. Its overpriced pretty much like all EVs but then again that is quid pro quo in the Corporate World. intel sold us $500 processors for years consisting of roughly $3 in raw materials but the demand was there.

Now, the demand is shifting from "bleeding edge" to a "buyer's choice" so we can go high, medium or low. What we need to realize is that the biggest and least tapped market is the low. I would love 200 miles of range, but I also have to be realistic in what I can afford so give me 120 miles of range for less than $30,000
 
I leased a Leaf for 3 years, which expires in October. It has done what I expected, is very practical and i have learned a lot.
Here are my concerns with Nissan.
Nissan has been less than transparent on plans and time lines for the Leaf 2. Many expected it for 2016.
Yet , the only "hint" was a press tour in Japan in October 2015, with what seemed vague suggestons. Maybe this is a bit of Japanese culture, but it is lost on me, and perhaps most American buyers.

Now with Tesla and Chevy Bolt giving clearly defining views their next offering, they are taking the lead and attention. Both of them threaten the Nissan lead status of EV production and innovation, because we dont know when and what to expect next.

Perhaps Nissan is concerned that announcing Nissan 2 will kill sales of Leaf 2016. Based on recent sales numbers, the 2016 sales are almost invisible. There is no longer a downside to revealing the next generation.

Unless there is a quick change in attitude and communication, Chevy Bolt will be so hyped on introduction, as a Tesla has done, that the Leaf 2 will be looked on as a 2ND tier Me To vehicle, and will not get the oxygen to thrive.
 
WetEV said:
LeftieBiker said:
Bolt, with more than twice the range, will fit a lot more people's needs than the Leaf could. Better battery life, better looks, larger motor, probably more interior space, more fancy features, and so on.

The Bolt will take 9 hours to recharge because they stuffed more batteries in the floor. I wonder why they didn't adopt Tesla's charging infrastructure to cut that time down.
 
Jedlacks said:
WetEV said:
LeftieBiker said:
Bolt, with more than twice the range, will fit a lot more people's needs than the Leaf could. Better battery life, better looks, larger motor, probably more interior space, more fancy features, and so on.

The Bolt will take 9 hours to recharge because they stuffed more batteries in the floor. I wonder why they didn't adopt Tesla's charging infrastructure to cut that time down.

That's an editing error. I didn't write the above.
 
Jedlacks said:
The Bolt will take 9 hours to recharge because they stuffed more batteries in the floor. I wonder why they didn't adopt Tesla's charging infrastructure to cut that time down.

Do we know how long the Bolt will take to QC? I couldn't personally care less about a 9 hour recharge every 200 miles. I don't drive anywhere near 200 miles per day, so the Bolt would still be fully charged overnight for me. Going a step farther, I can replenish my daily driving in my Leaf using L1 overnight. The same will be true for the Bolt unless it is far less efficient for some reason (doubtful).

What I care about is charging while I'm on the go. And that requires CCS quick chargers. Assuming those are around, what rate will the Bolt charge at? And what will the Leaf 2.0 charge at (only Nissan knows - if even they do). The CHAdeMO association has announced an upcoming increase to 150kW. Will Nissan eventually be able to use that?

http://insideevs.com/chademo-association-announced-150-kw-charging-in-2017-350-kw-study/

Edit: fixed link
 
WetEV said:
Bolt, with more than twice the range, will fit a lot more people's needs than the Leaf could. Better battery life, better looks, larger motor, probably more interior space, more fancy features, and so on.

Jedlacks said:
The Bolt will take 9 hours to recharge because they stuffed more batteries in the floor. I wonder why they didn't adopt Tesla's charging infrastructure to cut that time down.

If you plug in when you get home, the car will be ready before you are done with breakfast.
 
Jedlacks said:
WetEV said:
LeftieBiker said:
Bolt, with more than twice the range, will fit a lot more people's needs than the Leaf could. Better battery life, better looks, larger motor, probably more interior space, more fancy features, and so on.

The Bolt will take 9 hours to recharge because they stuffed more batteries in the floor. I wonder why they didn't adopt Tesla's charging infrastructure to cut that time down.


For a long list of reasons but they have DC QC where you won't need it. The 9 hour charge time is pretty moot and where the batteries are located is moot as well since KWH are KWH no matter where you put them.
 
I agree with you all. :D

So the main difference between the Bolt and the Leaf is that Chevy stuffed more batteries into the car. Therefore, they will have a longer time before they suffer the decreasing range, because they have active cooling on more batteries. It is also more expensive than the Leaf, but in all fairness, you get more. They essentially took the lessons learned from Nissan over the past 5 years and built on it. Very smart!

Maybe one day they will talk about DCQC and it could rival the best on the market. But it would not be unreasonable to believe that it will take 60 minutes to go to 80%, which may be essentially kicking the can down the road.
 
Jedlacks said:
I agree with you all. :D

So the main difference between the Bolt and the Leaf is that Chevy stuffed more batteries into the car. Therefore, they will have a longer time before they suffer the decreasing range, because they have active cooling on more batteries. It is also more expensive than the Leaf, but in all fairness, you get more. They essentially took the lessons learned from Nissan over the past 5 years and built on it. Very smart!

Maybe one day they will talk about DCQC and it could rival the best on the market. But it would not be unreasonable to believe that it will take 60 minutes to go to 80%, which may be essentially kicking the can down the road.

More power, better telematics, features, performance, range, etc. The DCQC network has no company backing it to expand to areas where it is needed.
 
In the Washington DC, Baltimore and Delaware, (mid-Atlantic), a regional convenience and gas station, Royal Farms, is adding DC fast charging to a number of strategic stores. The units are by ChargePoint, and support both charging standards, but not Tesla.
I live in a beach resort area, and except in my town (16 free L2 public chargers) , chargers are few and far between.
 
GetOffYourGas said:
...What I care about is charging while I'm on the go. And that requires CCS quick chargers. Assuming those are around, what rate will the Bolt charge at? And what will the Leaf 2.0 charge at (only Nissan knows - if even they do). The CHAdeMO association has announced an upcoming increase to 150kW. Will Nissan eventually be able to use that?...
I think I saw in another thread that GM said that the Bolt would charge at up to 50 kW at a CCS fast charge station. How fast would depend on the starting SOC and the rate of taper as the battery fills. And, perhaps, battery temperature.

Barring some sort of dramatic chemistry change it is hard to see LEAF2 being able to charge at anywhere near 150 kW unless Nissan relents and installs a robust battery temperature management system. Current Chademo speeds, or a bit higher due to increased battery size, seem more likely for the next few years.
 
dgpcolorado said:
GetOffYourGas said:
...What I care about is charging while I'm on the go. And that requires CCS quick chargers. Assuming those are around, what rate will the Bolt charge at? And what will the Leaf 2.0 charge at (only Nissan knows - if even they do). The CHAdeMO association has announced an upcoming increase to 150kW. Will Nissan eventually be able to use that?...
I think I saw in another thread that GM said that the Bolt would charge at up to 50 kW at a CCS fast charge station. How fast would depend on the starting SOC and the rate of taper as the battery fills. And, perhaps, battery temperature. <snip>
Are you sure that was the Bolt, and not the Spark EV you're remembering? The Spark can charge at up to 50kW, but I don't recall seeing anything specific about the Bolt's max charging rate, just this statement that implies about 50kW:
GM says that with the SAE Combo DC Fast Charge, the Chevy Bolt EV will be able to add 90 miles of range in about 30 minutes. It is somewhat disappointing considering DC fast-charging is primarily to make long-distance travel possible, and expecting drivers to stop every 90 miles for 30 minutes of charging is not ideal.
http://electrek.co/2016/01/11/gm-bolt-ev-battery-pack-fast-charging-full-specs/

Whether that's a limitation of the car, or just the max. charging rate that currently available CCS chargers put out isn't clear. Audi has said they're aiming at 150kW CCS in the near future, with 350kW for the generation after that, and CHAdeMO's announcement of the same charging rates was in response to that. Does anybody have more definitive info?

Her's another quote, from R&T, which says something rather different:
Other Bolt stats: According to Mary Barra's presentation, you'll be able to fast-charge the battery to 90 percent full in just 30 minutes when using a DC charger.
http://www.roadandtrack.com/car-shows/detroit-auto-show/news/a27858/chevy-bolt-0-60-charging-time/

And here's another article which says something else:
For charging, the Bolt carries along standard charging rates, proclaiming that it will regain 80% of a charge in just 60 minutes — or roughly the same DC fast charging rate comparable EVs get today.
http://cleantechnica.com/2016/01/08/chevy-bolt-deeper-dive-test-drive-video/

Taking it altogether, I don't think we have anything I'd consider a hard number about the Bolt's max. charge rate.
 
sounds like they are simply using the most common charge rate of 50 KW. so 80% in 60 mins would be about right since there will be some tapering
 
ydnas7 said:
https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/Find.do?action=sbs&id=37196&id=36493&id=36484

comparing side by side, I expect Nissan to be about 10% - 15% more range than Chev Bolt, if both had the same battery capacity.

FWIW, it turns out Chevy Bolt is more efficient than the Leaf. Despite having a larger battery it gets better mileage both in city and highway driving, with highway being almost 10% better.

http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/Find.do?action=sbs&id=38187&id=38428

I like the used Leaf I bought--can't beat the price, but the Bolt really blows the current Leaf out of the water. It seems like Nissan really got caught flat footed here. I guess the Leaf is cheaper, so there is that, but I think if GM can produce enough Bolts, Nissan may find it a challenge to sell 2017 Leafs.
 
Nagorak said:
ydnas7 said:
https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/Find.do?action=sbs&id=37196&id=36493&id=36484

comparing side by side, I expect Nissan to be about 10% - 15% more range than Chev Bolt, if both had the same battery capacity.

FWIW, it turns out Chevy Bolt is more efficient than the Leaf. Despite having a larger battery it gets better mileage both in city and highway driving, with highway being almost 10% better.

http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/Find.do?action=sbs&id=38187&id=38428

I like my the used Leaf I bought--can't beat the price, but the Bolt really blows the current Leaf out of the water. It seems like Nissan really got caught flat footed here. I guess the Leaf is cheaper, so there is that, but I think if GM can produce enough Bolts, Nissan may find it a challenge to sell 2017 Leafs.

The LEAF and the Bolt are in different segments of the market. Right now using a formula that takes into consideration both price and range, the LEAF is a much better deal. But then again, Bolts are going for premium plus pricing and LEAFs are being discounted up to 50%
 
I assume that you mean 2016 Leafs. Not many of those left in my region.

I just signed up for the Ioniq forum this morning. It appears that that will be my next car, as GM is screwing lessees, I can't qualify for the tax credit to buy, and it's likely I'll hate the Bolt's seats. It actually seems like a more more refined car than the Bolt. And, of course, because Nissan dropped the ball on fixing any of the numerous issues with the current Leaf...
 
LeftieBiker said:
I assume that you mean 2016 Leafs. Not many of those left in my region.

I just signed up for the Ioniq forum this morning. It appears that that will be my next car, as GM is screwing lessees, I can't qualify for the tax credit to buy, and it's likely I'll hate the Bolt's seats. It actually seems like a more more refined car than the Bolt. And, of course, because Nissan dropped the ball on fixing any of the numerous issues with the current Leaf...

what is the range on them? for some reason, I thought they were only slightly more than what I have now
 
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