2017 Prius Prime PHEV

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SageBrush said:
Lastly, while I was not talking only about Volt reliability because I don't know details, the 2nd generation Volt has this going on
The Chevrolet Volt is “no longer recommended” as it is on a list of vehicles with “declining reliability.”
...
The kicker is “First-year reliability of the redesign has been well-below average,” says CR.
http://www.hybridcars.com/consumer-reports-names-tesla-volt-and-prius-among-winners-and-losers/
Thanks. That's good information that is specific to the discussion.

Still, to date, no Toyota Prius has ever topped the Chevy Volt in customer satisfaction. And the PiP is far behind. Will that changed with the 2017 Chevy Volt and the 2017 Prius Prime? No one knows.

Simply put, Toyota is the laggard in plug-in vehicles. They have some catch-up to do in this space. They continue to cling to their hybrid line which has been a real cash cow for them while Chevy had innovated aggressively. IMO, a 25-mile electric-only range will still leave Toyota customers lacking. Time will tell.
 
RegGuheert said:
I cannot see the appeal of the Prius Prime. What can you say about it?

- It goes almost half as far as the Volt 2 on batteries.
- It has 80% as many seats as the Volt 2.
- It's twice as ugly as the Volt 2.
- If you stare at its rear long enough, you see Optimus Prime. :D

It appears it has three things going for it:
- It costs 90% as much as the Volt 2.
- It goes 29% farther on a gallon of gas than the Volt 2.
- It has 87% more cargo volume than the Volt 2.

OK, perhaps that last one would win over some owners. Still, I think most will have difficulty choosing the Prius Prime over the Chevy Volt.

If these do become popular, expect to find Prius Primes clogging EVSEs everywhere. :evil:
84% of the Volt's price, or more importantly from the customer's viewpoint, base MSRP of $6k less, which is to say, $6k less than the average price paid for all new LDVs, which includes much more expensive pickups and SUVs - the price differential more than doubles the size of the potential market. Plus, there's little reason that anyone using the car for commuting and charging at home and/or work needs to charge beyond L1, saving the cost and hassle of upgrading circuits/buying an L2 EVSE and making far more sense for renters, and the Prime's virtually guaranteed to be more reliable than the Volt.

For anyone who's routine daily driving range can be handled by the Prime, the Volt battery pack's extra weight and cost are useless, and the Prime's more efficient in CS mode (and maybe in CD mode) as a result. I suspect back seat space is also better for the Prime, although it lacks the Volt's half seat which will be a factor for some. You've also got to put up with the Prime's looks and flabbier performance, but the latter's simply not an issue for the average Prius buyer, and the former matters a lot less to them than to the general car-buying population. It would certainly sell _better_ if it looked more normal, but I expect it will sell just fine - the regular Gen 4 Prius, although not selling as well as the Gen 3 did and generally considered by those who've seen them both to be fuglier than the Prime, is still very popular here in the Bay Area.
 
GRA said:
RegGuheert said:
I cannot see the appeal of the Prius Prime. What can you say about it?

- It goes almost half as far as the Volt 2 on batteries.
- It has 80% as many seats as the Volt 2.
- It's twice as ugly as the Volt 2.
- If you stare at its rear long enough, you see Optimus Prime. :D

It appears it has three things going for it:
- It costs 90% as much as the Volt 2.
- It goes 29% farther on a gallon of gas than the Volt 2.
- It has 87% more cargo volume than the Volt 2.

OK, perhaps that last one would win over some owners. Still, I think most will have difficulty choosing the Prius Prime over the Chevy Volt.

If these do become popular, expect to find Prius Primes clogging EVSEs everywhere. :evil:
84% of the Volt's price, or more importantly from the customer's viewpoint, base MSRP of $6k less, which is to say, $6k less than the average price paid for all new LDVs, which includes much more expensive pickups and SUVs - the price differential more than doubles the size of the potential market. Plus, there's little reason that anyone using the car for commuting and charging at home and/or work needs to charge beyond L1, saving the cost and hassle of upgrading circuits/buying an L2 EVSE and making far more sense for renters, and the Prime's virtually guaranteed to be more reliable than the Volt.

For anyone who's routine daily driving range can be handled by the Prime, the Volt battery pack's extra weight and cost are useless, and the Prime's more efficient in CS mode (and maybe in CD mode) as a result. I suspect back seat space is also better for the Prime, although it lacks the Volt's half seat which will be a factor for some. You've also got to put up with the Prime's looks and flabbier performance, but the latter's simply not an issue for the average Prius buyer, and the former matters a lot less to them than to the general car-buying population. It would certainly sell _better_ if it looked more normal, but I expect it will sell just fine - the regular Gen 4 Prius, although not selling as well as the Gen 3 did and generally considered by those who've seen them both to be fuglier than the Prime, is still very popular here in the Bay Area.
Well said.

So called "EV enthusiasts" and car review magazines love to hate the Prius and Prime but people who value practicality, reliability, value and efficiency find a lot to like in the Toyota *EV offerings. It also helps that Toyota offers fantastic customer support, unlike e.g. *cough* *cough* my otherwise highly respected Honda when it comes to *EVs, let alone a slime company like GM.
 
RegGuheert said:
SageBrush said:
Lastly, while I was not talking only about Volt reliability because I don't know details, the 2nd generation Volt has this going on
The Chevrolet Volt is “no longer recommended” as it is on a list of vehicles with “declining reliability.”
...
The kicker is “First-year reliability of the redesign has been well-below average,” says CR.
http://www.hybridcars.com/consumer-reports-names-tesla-volt-and-prius-among-winners-and-losers/
Thanks. That's good information that is specific to the discussion.

Still, to date, no Toyota Prius has ever topped the Chevy Volt in customer satisfaction. And the PiP is far behind. Will that changed with the 2017 Chevy Volt and the 2017 Prius Prime? No one knows.
Seeing as how the average Prius owner views a car as an appliance and treats it likewise, it's hardly surprising that its customer satisfaction ratings are relatively low (but IIRR its return customer % is very high). The Volt's just getting beyond the early adopter stage, and I suspect that's being reflected in the lower reliability ratings (already) and soon the customer satisfaction ratings, as the customer demographic changes to reflect more mainstream views. The Prius' customer base, OTOH, has never been mainstream, at least in the U.S.

RegGuheert said:
Simply put, Toyota is the laggard in plug-in vehicles. They have some catch-up to do in this space. They continue to cling to their hybrid line which has been a real cash cow for them while Chevy had innovated aggressively. IMO, a 25-mile electric-only range will still leave Toyota customers lacking. Time will tell.
For reasons I've mentioned before, but primarily cost and secondarily hassle factor, I remain convinced that PHEVs with the lowest price while having a battery big enough to handle a large % of the population's daily needs are the only ones that have a chance of reaching large numbers (say annual rates of 100k initially, ultimately 250k+) of sales under current conditions. The Prime may be able to achieve the first number (it's probably still too expensive without subsidies) the Volt remains too expensive. Getting PHEV prices to drop to $25k and then $20k while still providing comparable performance/value to ICEs is the next step. The Prime also falls short on pax/cargo volume, and the first company that can provide a sub-$30k PHEV with 20+ miles of range which is a true 5 passenger car with un-compromised cargo space and normal looks will do very well - the Fusion/C-Max Energi have the 5 pax and normal looks and sell reasonably well, but not the cargo space. A next-gen Fusion/C-Max Energi that puts the battery in a skateboard could clean up.
 
GRA said:
84% of the Volt's price, or more importantly from the customer's viewpoint, base MSRP of $6k less,...
Let's see the actual numbers:

2017 Chevy Volt base price: $33,200
2017 Chevy Volt federal tax credit: $7500
2017 Chevy Volt final price: $25,700

2017 Toyota Prius Prime base price: $27,100
2017 Toyota Prius Prime federal tax credit: $4500
2017 Toyota Prius Prime final price: $22,600

Difference: $3,100 2017 ToyotaPrius Prime is 88% of the price of the 2017 Chevy Volt.
GRA said:
Plus, there's little reason that anyone using the car for commuting and charging at home and/or work needs to charge beyond L1, saving the cost and hassle of upgrading circuits/buying an L2 EVSE...
It seems you haven't thought this through carefully. Miles gained per hours at a given charging rate is ONLY a function vehicle efficiencies (both charging and running efficiencies). Chevy Volt travels 53 miles using an 18.4 kWh battery or 2.88 miles/kWh. Toyota Prius Prime travels 25 miles using an 8.8 kWh battery for 2.84 miles/kWh. In other words, the 2017 Chevy Volt is MORE efficient at driving on electricity than the 2017 Prius Prime. Assuming they have equally-efficient chargers at L1 speeds, then the Chevy Volt will travel FARTHER each day using L1 than the 2017 Prius Prime. Note that there are other very good reasons to install a L2 charger, plus it improves charging efficiency.
GRA said:
...and making far more sense for renters,...
:?: Nonsense. A renter without easy access to an L2 (or L1) EVSE would be better served by a Volt than Prius Prime. In the Volt, those with very short commutes could charge only on weekends and then commute all week on electricity. With a longer commute, they could charge on the weekend and then again once during the week. With the Prius Prime, a renter will ALWAYS be looking for a place to charge (or, more likely, will simply just burn gasoline always due to the hassle of having to charge away from home so often).
GRA said:
...and the Prime's virtually guaranteed to be more reliable than the Volt.
No, it's not. We have no data on the reliability of the 2017 Toyota Prius Prime.
GRA said:
For anyone who's routine daily driving range can be handled by the Prime, the Volt battery pack's extra weight and cost are useless, and the Prime's more efficient in CS mode (and maybe in CD mode) as a result.
This was the same argument used for the Toyota Plug in Prius. People thought: "I only have a 5-mile commute, so this will be perfect." Those same people never thought to look at how many miles they drive each year. Those suckers ended up paying over $10,000 more for a vehicle which had marginally better efficiency than a normal Prius. The Prime is a step in the right direction, but I suspect there aren't enough drivers with sub-12-mile-one-way commutes who never go anywhere else during their daily routine to make this attractive. This is why I predict these cars will clog EVSEs.
GRA said:
It would certainly sell _better_ if it looked more normal, but I expect it will sell just fine...
I suspect you are correct here. Hey, people even purchased the PiP, and this is a big improvement over that car.
 
The above post is surprisingly riddled with errors and questionable assumptions. I'll take just this one: that the PIP is only 'marginally more efficient' than the regular Prius. My housemate has a commute that is much farther than the car's AER, but it has a lifetime (something like 40 months) average MPG of about 73, with Summer averages in the eighties. Her 2010 Prius II averaged about 50 MPG over the years. Almost 33% less gas used is not "marginally" anything.

And here's a bonus rebuttal: we certainly can expect that the Prime will be very reliable, as it's the fifth generation of a car in which the mechanical changes are not radical, and the previous four generations were all reliable. It isn't guaranteed, but it's likely.
 
LeftieBiker said:
The above post is surprisingly riddled with errors and questionable assumptions. I'll take just this one: that the PIP is only 'marginally more efficient' than the regular Prius. My housemate has a commute that is much farther than the car's AER, but it has a lifetime (something like 40 months) average MPG of about 73, with Summer averages in the eighties. Her 2010 Prius II averaged about 50 MPG over the years. Almost 33% less gas used is not "marginally" anything.
It sounds as if you are confusing gas mileage with something else. Early Chevy Volt users often claimed they got 250 MPG. Here are some real-world numbers for everyone to enjoy:

Toyota Prius
2015: 44.7
2014: 47.1
2013: 46.7

Toyota Prius Plugin
2015: 52.0
2014: 45.2
2013: 51.4

Simply put, gasoline mileage for the PiP is marginally better than that for the regular Prius.

If you want instead to count the miles driven on electricity in gasoline mileage, then the Chevy Volt wins hands down in that equation.
LeftieBiker said:
And here's a bonus rebuttal: we certainly can expect that the Prime will be very reliable, as it's the fifth generation of a car in which the mechanical changes are not radical, and the previous four generations were all reliable. It isn't guaranteed, but it's likely.
That doesn't contradict anything I wrote. You said it isn't guaranteed and that's exactly what I wrote. I think we are in full agreement on this point.
 
RegGuheert said:
GRA said:
84% of the Volt's price, or more importantly from the customer's viewpoint, base MSRP of $6k less,...
Let's see the actual numbers:

2017 Chevy Volt base price: $33,200
2017 Chevy Volt federal tax credit: $7500
2017 Chevy Volt final price: $25,700

2017 Toyota Prius Prime base price: $27,100
2017 Toyota Prius Prime federal tax credit: $4500
2017 Toyota Prius Prime final price: $22,600

Difference: $3,100 2017 ToyotaPrius Prime is 88% of the price of the 2017 Chevy Volt.
GRA said:
Plus, there's little reason that anyone using the car for commuting and charging at home and/or work needs to charge beyond L1, saving the cost and hassle of upgrading circuits/buying an L2 EVSE...
It seems you haven't thought this through carefully. Miles gained per hours at a given charging rate is ONLY a function vehicle efficiencies (both charging and running efficiencies). Chevy Volt travels 53 miles using an 18.4 kWh battery or 2.88 miles/kWh. Toyota Prius Prime travels 25 miles using an 8.8 kWh battery for 2.84 miles/kWh. In other words, the 2017 Chevy Volt is MORE efficient at driving on electricity than the 2017 Prius Prime. Assuming they have equally-efficient chargers at L1 speeds, then the Chevy Volt will travel FARTHER each day using L1 than the 2017 Prius Prime. Note that there are other very good reasons to install a L2 charger, plus it improves charging efficiency.
GRA said:
...and making far more sense for renters,...
:?: Nonsense. A renter without easy access to an L2 (or L1) EVSE would be better served by a Volt than Prius Prime. In the Volt, those with very short commutes could charge only on weekends and then commute all week on electricity. With a longer commute, they could charge on the weekend and then again once during the week. With the Prius Prime, a renter will ALWAYS be looking for a place to charge (or, more likely, will simply just burn gasoline always due to the hassle of having to charge away from home so often).
GRA said:
...and the Prime's virtually guaranteed to be more reliable than the Volt.
No, it's not. We have no data on the reliability of the 2017 Toyota Prius Prime.

1. Reliability is estimated based on model and manufacturer history. Have you never seen Consumer Reports, e.g ?

2. Look up fueleconomy.gov for vehicle efficiencies. Your calc is wrong because it presumes the same fraction of the nominal capacity is usable. More importantly, you miss the point that a Volt buyer probably values the 50 mile range per charge and would find the Prime 25 miles per charge inadequate. The Prime buyer has decided that the 25 miles EV range is adequate and values the higher ICE efficiency not available in the Volt. You cannot ignore the differences in the cars and the differences in the priorities of the consumers. One likely result is that a Volt owner will be looking at over twice the L1 time as a Prime owner to meet their use case. That is why GRA is right.

3. Renting: This again depends on specific use cases, but in general L1 limited charging is probably going to be easier to get along with for people with less demanding daily EV driving, thereby selecting for people who do not care about the longer Volt EV range.

4. IF the entire tax credit can be taken. And for people who are price conscious, reliability and depreciation come into consideration.

The thing is, you have the perspective of an outsider who views these cars as similar but in reality there is little x-shopping. A large part of this is simply brand preference but the more subtle issue is that the two groups have fairly different shopping priorities and use cases. Your arguments reminds me of the days when the Gen 1 Volt came out and people would argue that the Volt was perfect because the EV range exactly matched the daily driving of the Average American even though even cursory inspection of a histogram of daily drivers shows that very, very few drivers are average and the overwhelming majority of us drive a mixture ranges related to work, pleasure and long trips, and our charging opportunities are equally as varied.
 
SageBrush said:
1. Reliability is estimated based on model and manufacturer history. Have you never seen Consumer Reports, e.g ?
You mean like the Volt 2 had very good estimated reliability based on the Volt 1? Got it.
SageBrush said:
2. Look up fueleconomy.gov for vehicle efficiencies.
O.K.
2015 Prius: 48 MPG
2016 Prius Plugin: 50 MPG

How many more sources do you need to prove my point? A 2015 Chevy Volt would use MUCH less gasoline than a PiP for most daily driving distances and it would have cost about the same if not less.
SageBrush said:
Your calc is wrong because it presumes the same fraction of the nominal capacity is usable.
Got numbers? In reality, the Chevy Volt uses the smallest percent of the capacity of its battery of just about any car out there. As such, it is likely that the Volt is more relatively efficient than I had calculated.
SageBrush said:
More importantly, you miss the point that a Volt buyer probably values the 50 mile range per charge and would find the Prime 25 miles per charge inadequate. The Prime buyer has decided that the 25 miles EV range is adequate and values the higher ICE efficiency not available in the Volt. You cannot ignore the differences in the cars and the differences in the priorities of the consumers. One likely result is that a Volt owner will be looking at over twice the L1 time as a Prime owner to meet their use case. That is why GRA is right.
No, you can easily support a 50-mile or longer commute in 10 hours of L1 since you get about 5 miles per hour of charging.
SageBrush said:
3. Renting: This again depends on specific use cases, but in general L1 limited charging is probably going to be easier to get along with for people with less demanding daily EV driving, thereby selecting for people who do not care about the longer Volt EV range.
As I pointed out, ALL renting scenarios point to the Chevy Volt being significantly more convenient since it reduces the incidence of public charging regardless of distance traveled. More likely renters are going to purchase a car which runs on gasoline unless they can charge at work.
SageBrush said:
4. IF the entire tax credit can be taken. And for people who are price conscious, reliability and depreciation come into consideration.
The entire tax credit can ALWAYS be taken by leasing.
SageBrush said:
The thing is, you have the perspective of an outsider who views these cars as similar but in reality there is little x-shopping. A large part of this is simply brand preference but the more subtle issue is that the two groups have fairly different shopping priorities and use cases.
Um. No. I am pointing out that a 25-mile AER is far inferior to a 53-mile AER in all but the extreme corner cases. GRA likes to imagine such corner cases in order to promote EVERY OTHER TYPE OF VEHICLE above BEVs. It's what he comes here to do every day, even though he is an absolute outsider.
 
Ignore leasing as a tax credit convenience for this discussion because the two cars do not have the same APRs and residuals.

FuelEconomy.gov is not doing a good job these days ...
Here are the Monroney stickers for each car
https://priuschat.com/threads/monroney-stickers-prius-prime-vs-volt.175216/#post-2474584

You need to get out more. Read the Volt and Prime forums a little and you will quickly see that the Volt buyers prize the higher AER and 0-60 times while the Prime buyers discount or ignore those aspects of the car. There are a slew of other priorities that differ between these two groups but you should start with the obvious ones. Models can only be compared in the context of what buyers care about. I usually do not bring my example to discussions because I am an outlier in too many ways but in this case I may be instructive: I am buying two *EVs this year: the LEAF bought last month and a Prime anticipated in February. The Volt is a 'tweener that poorly serves most of my family's use cases.
 
So does anyone know if the Prime has morning warmup like the Leaf? and to keep it fair since this thread seems to be turning into a Prime vs Volt thread, does the Volt have morning warmup?
As someone won't gotten used to this feature on my Leaf I'd hate to lose that feature, along with the heated steering wheel which IMO is one of the nicest features of the Leaf :cool: ya it's cold in MN again today :(
 
SageBrush said:
Ignore leasing as a tax credit convenience for this discussion because the two cars do not have the same APRs and residuals.

FuelEconomy.gov is not doing a good job these days ...
Here are the Monroney stickers for each car
https://priuschat.com/threads/monroney-stickers-prius-prime-vs-volt.175216/#post-2474584
Bait and swap now? We were comparing the gas mileage of a Prius and a Prius Plugin, which I did multiple ways. I already conceded in the very first post I made in this thread that the Prius Prime would go farther on gasoline than a Chevy Volt:
RegGuheert said:
- It goes 29% farther on a gallon of gas than the Volt 2.
SageBrush said:
You need to get out more. Read the Volt and Prime forums a little and you will quickly see that the Volt buyers prize the higher AER and 0-60 times while the Prime buyers discount or ignore those aspects of the car.
Funny. I never once mentioned 0-60 times.
SageBrush said:
There are a slew of other priorities that differ between these two groups but you should start with the obvious ones. Models can only be compared in the context of what buyers care about. I usually do not bring my example to discussions because I am an outlier in too many ways but in this case I may be instructive: I am buying two *EVs this year: the LEAF bought last month and a Prime anticipated in February. The Volt is a 'tweener that poorly serves most of my family's use cases.
I'm sure you will be happy with both the Prius Prime and the LEAF. We have a similar mix here: MY2011 LEAF and 2003 Honda Civic Hybrid. If I were purchasing a companion for the LEAF, I can see going with the Prius Prime, since we tend to use the Honda Civic for long trips. But I can also see us purchasing the Chevy Volt.
 
I showed you the EV efficiencies to debunk your statement that miles of range per hour were the same in the Prime and the Volt. Your estimate for the Volt of 6 miles per hour is also way off for L1 charging:

A 120V, 12A outlet puts about 1.1 kW into the Volt battery. Starting from the 106 MPGe of the Volt this works out to
1.1 * 106 / 33.7 = 3.46 miles an hour of range by LI.

So a person who wants to use all the Volt range routinely but is limited to L1 will require over 15 hours a day of charging. That is the problem that would be renters who live e.g in apartments with only L1 facilities will face if the Volt AER prompted their purchase.

The Prime buyer is limited say to 25 miles, which then works out to 25 / (1.1*133/33.7) = under 6 hours a day of LI charging to maximize their AER

LI workplace charging fits the Prime well and leaves the Volt underutilized in many scenarios.
 
RegGuheert said:
I'm sure you will be happy with both the Prius Prime and the LEAF. We have a similar mix here: MY2011 LEAF and 2003 Honda Civic Hybrid. If I were purchasing a companion for the LEAF, I can see going with the Prius Prime, since we tend to use the Honda Civic for long trips. But I can also see us purchasing the Chevy Volt.
I spoke sloppily. I actually have reservations for the both the Prime and the Tesla M3 and will buy one or the other. It depends on whether my workplace decides to allow charging and how much I am bowled over by the Tesla. Needless to say, the M3 is likely to be a whole lot more car on paper but if I can charge at work the LEAF can be driven for that task and then the Prime becomes excellent value and utility for my other uses.

Just another example of why feature lists of cars (let alone relying on ONE feature) is just not really useful.
 
I asked to charge at work. Obviously my email to the Communications Officer at the City of Long Beach was forwarded. I received permission from the Office of Sustainability (whatever that is).

Realistically I could have only charged at home since the whole commute was 40 miles but I split the charging. For sure I exceeded the original Plug in Prius's range but the Leaf worked for me.

Now that I am retired even the Prius would work for me since I do not drive that much.
 
I'm also curious about the Prime and whether or not it has a heated steering wheel, which is a deal-breaker for me when absent. As for 'morning warmup': someone somewhere said the Prime now has a (available?) heat pump , but I've seem nothing to confirm this. AFAIK you have to run the Prime to get heat, just like the PIP.
 
RegGuheert said:
GRA said:
84% of the Volt's price, or more importantly from the customer's viewpoint, base MSRP of $6k less,...
Let's see the actual numbers:

2017 Chevy Volt base price: $33,200
2017 Chevy Volt federal tax credit: $7500
2017 Chevy Volt final price: $25,700

2017 Toyota Prius Prime base price: $27,100
2017 Toyota Prius Prime federal tax credit: $4500
2017 Toyota Prius Prime final price: $22,600

Difference: $3,100 2017 ToyotaPrius Prime is 88% of the price of the 2017 Chevy Volt
Uh huh, but that assumes that

1. You qualify for the full tax credit (a lot of the people who could afford the Prime but not the Volt don't), and

2. The tax credits won't get repealed even before the companies reach their sales limits (which GM will reach much earlier than Toyota).

RegGuheert said:
GRA said:
Plus, there's little reason that anyone using the car for commuting and charging at home and/or work needs to charge beyond L1, saving the cost and hassle of upgrading circuits/buying an L2 EVSE...
It seems you haven't thought this through carefully. Miles gained per hours at a given charging rate is ONLY a function vehicle efficiencies (both charging and running efficiencies). Chevy Volt travels 53 miles using an 18.4 kWh battery or 2.88 miles/kWh. Toyota Prius Prime travels 25 miles using an 8.8 kWh battery for 2.84 miles/kWh. In other words, the 2017 Chevy Volt is MORE efficient at driving on electricity than the 2017 Prius Prime. Assuming they have equally-efficient chargers at L1 speeds, then the Chevy Volt will travel FARTHER each day using L1 than the 2017 Prius Prime. Note that there are other very good reasons to install a L2 charger, plus it improves charging efficiency.
Sure, L2 improves charging efficiency, and also allows you to make more spur of the moment trips when your battery's mostly depleted, but that's never going to outweigh the extra cost and hassle of providing L2, for renters. The Prime can fully charge its battery overnight using only L1, the Volt can't. If you need more than the Prime's range, then it might make sense for you to opt for a PHEV with a longer range and L2, although at current gas prices it's unlikely to make economic sense (especially without subsidies). If you don't need the range, then the extra 10-15% efficiency of L2 is nice, but not nowhere near enough to make back the extra cost of the car and EVSE/circuit upgrade.

RegGuheert said:
GRA said:
...and making far more sense for renters,...
:?: Nonsense. A renter without easy access to an L2 (or L1) EVSE would be better served by a Volt than Prius Prime.
Reg, a renter without easy access to charging has no business buying any kind of PEV at the moment, because it's cheaper to buy gas than pay public charging prices in most areas, as well as generally more convenient. But a renter is much more likely to have access to L1 than L2 charging, unless they're renting a home with a garage and 240V dryer circuit. If I really wanted to make it work I could charge L1, although that would involve running an extension cord out a door or window (not a viable option during the heating months in winter). L2 is simply not an option for me or most apartment/condo renters.

RegGuheert said:
In the Volt, those with very short commutes could charge only on weekends and then commute all week on electricity. With a longer commute, they could charge on the weekend and then again once during the week. With the Prius Prime, a renter will ALWAYS be looking for a place to charge (or, more likely, will simply just burn gasoline always due to the hassle of having to charge away from home so often)
See above.

RegGuheert said:
GRA said:
...and the Prime's virtually guaranteed to be more reliable than the Volt.
No, it's not. We have no data on the reliability of the 2017 Toyota Prius Prime.
Perhaps I should have added "based on the past reliability of Toyota and Chevrolet products over the past 40 years or so", but I assumed that was implicitly understood by all.

RegGuheert said:
GRA said:
For anyone who's routine daily driving range can be handled by the Prime, the Volt battery pack's extra weight and cost are useless, and the Prime's more efficient in CS mode (and maybe in CD mode) as a result.
This was the same argument used for the Toyota Plug in Prius. People thought: "I only have a 5-mile commute, so this will be perfect." Those same people never thought to look at how many miles they drive each year. Those suckers ended up paying over $10,000 more for a vehicle which had marginally better efficiency than a normal Prius. The Prime is a step in the right direction, but I suspect there aren't enough drivers with sub-12-mile-one-way commutes who never go anywhere else during their daily routine to make this attractive. This is why I predict these cars will clog EVSEs.
The data don't back you up. After all, When GM was determining what AER to give the Gen 1 Volt, they found that the routine daily driving mileage of 50% of U.S. drivers was 20 miles or less, 75% was 35 miles or less, and 78% was 40 miles or less. They decided to aim for about 75-80%, but there's a huge market for a less expensive PHEV that can meet 50% of U.S. driver's needs, as there were 214 million licensed drivers in the U.S. as of 2014. For those who have charging at both ends, I imagine a Prime could probably handle around 90% or more of the population's routine driving needs. FTM, the 21 mile AER Fusion Energi outsold the LEAF last year, and the combined 2016 sales of the Fusion/C-Max Energi last year were greater than the LEAF's in any year but 2014, so there's clearly a market for a less expensive car with about this range. The PiP's problem was an excessive price with an AER so short (and requiring very careful driving to prevent the ICE kicking in) that many people couldn't be bothered to plug it in (and lots of people in California bought it solely for the HOV stickers with no intention of plugging it in). Of course, there were lots of Volts bought as company cars that were never plugged in either, as their drivers were reimbursed for gas but not for electricity.

RegGuheert said:
GRA said:
It would certainly sell _better_ if it looked more normal, but I expect it will sell just fine...
I suspect you are correct here. Hey, people even purchased the PiP, and this is a big improvement over that car.
it is indeed, in every way except looks (and cargo/pax area).
 
LeftieBiker said:
I'm also curious about the Prime and whether or not it has a heated steering wheel, which is a deal-breaker for me when absent. As for 'morning warmup': someone somewhere said the Prime now has a (available?) heat pump , but I've seem nothing to confirm this. AFAIK you have to run the Prime to get heat, just like the PIP.
That wouldn't be so good here for short trips where you need heat, if not for heat then defrosting, the engine would be basically running all the time. One of the reasons I wasn't sold on the Ford Cmax PHEV when I looked at a few winters ago, the engine never shut off due to the call for heat, not very cold weather friendly for sure. If that's the case with the Prime then it's basically only a potential EV for ~5 months around here :( Our regular Prius is the same, the engine rarely shuts off even at stop signs in the winter, due to a call for heat. If I'm waiting for someone for more than a couple minutes I'll turn off the climate control, which immediately turns off the engine. This was one of the things that drove me to an all EV car, no potential for the engine to come on if I didn't want it, I'm pretty sure the Volt also needs the engine for heat although I'm not positive. I do know the Volt will run the ICE if it wants to, even if I didn't want it, something about not letting the gas get old....
 
The PiP's problem was an excessive price with an AER so short (and requiring very careful driving to prevent the ICE kicking in) that many people couldn't be bothered to plug it in (and lots of people in California bought it solely for the HOV stickers with no intention of plugging it in).

True enough about the AER, but if you waited for the end of model year lease sales, the PIP was cheaper than a Prius II - $179 a month with $1999 down. And the engine doesn't kick in unless you nearly floor the pedal - I don't know where that idea came from, but the Prius II is like that in EV Mode...
 
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