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L1 charging typically maxes out at 12A or 1440 watts. At that rate you'll get 1KW/hr, and will add the number of miles you can accomplish per KW. I haven't had my Leaf long, but in sub 20 degree weather with hills, I've been lucky to get 3mi/kWh. I think 40 miles in 10 hours is optimistic in winter, but likely doable in summer.
 
Tsiah said:
LeftieBiker said:
You don't seem to understand battery heating or L-1 charging. The battery heater only comes on in single digit Fahrenheit weather, and only uses 300 watts. Preheating the car is entirely separate.

I understand the difference between pre heating the car and heating the battery. I didn't know that it was only a 300 watt heater.
My reading has lead me to believe that if it's cold outside and the car starts running the battery heater and you're on L1 charging, it will use the battery to run the battery heater because the L1 can't keep up with the heater and charging.
On a 20 amp outlet you can only draw 1960W (16A @ 120V) as a continuous load. (According to the NEC anyway) is 1600-1900 watts enough to charge the battery to 40 miles of range in 10 hours? Or am I misunderstanding something here?
The builders who built my house screwed me there anyway...I only have a 15A circuit out in the garage.

Somewhat I don't understand the battery heating in the newer LEAFs either. Will the L1 EVSE then draw more electricity to continue charging the battery at the original L1 rate, or will the charging rate of the newer LEAF be decreased by 300 watts? Which would be concerning since it is also my understanding that the LEAF itself is using about 300 watts during any charging event, L1, L2 or L3.

Most here calculate about 4.5 to 5 miles per hour, or 1kw per hour, of L1 charging, the range increase per hour is thus dependent on your driving efficiency. I'm usually at about 5.3 miles / kwh.

Also, I think the 15A circuit is generally the accepted procedure. It would be prudent though to have a competent electrician check the wiring gauge for the circuit, as I thought it was now common practice to run 12 gauge wiring as opposed to 14 gauge wiring, and it would be possible it could be upgraded to a 20A circuit with just switching the circuit breaker. I don't know if it would require a permit, or another inspection, but anything done has to remain NEC code compliant, as they would also have to recalculate the capacity of the entire panel to be sure it remained compliant.
 
My reading has lead me to believe that if it's cold outside and the car starts running the battery heater and you're on L1 charging, it will use the battery to run the battery heater because the L1 can't keep up with the heater and charging.

This is partially true. It's true for both the battery heater and the cabin heater, but the battery heater is, again, only 300 watts. You've read about people having trouble preheating the cabin with L-1 because of the net loss of charge. My solution to that has been to preheat for only 2 or 3 minutes, losing 2-3% net charge while gaining a tolerable cabin temp and warm steering wheel. Even with my car always sitting exposed to North winds in Upstate NY, the battery heater rarely runs, because it only comes on when the pack temperature is in the single digits - not the air temp. If you are using the car daily and charging with L-1, you are likely to never (or at least rarely) have the pack heater come on. It is my belief, unconfirmed but with significant evidence, that charging for many hours with L-1 heats the pack enough to greatly reduce the amount of time the pack heater runs. I doubt that you have read here about anyone not being able to get the car charged because of the pack heater running.

I'm not trying to talk you into getting a Leaf, BTW - I still think it's a bad idea for you. I just want you to understand the situation.
 
Leftie,
Yes this is info from several places online, I don't have a specific source... Just something I had read somewhere in all the stuff I've been reading lately.

I think I will wait for a used 30kWh car to hit the market and to know I have L2 charging at both ends of the commute before I buy.
I may even wait a little longer for the 200 mile range cars to be on the market...But if a 30kWh car will do the job for a few years, I'm going to do that til I can afford the 200 mile range car.
I'm tired of my own talk about reducing emissions when I burn 3 gallons of gas every day. I talk the talk, it's time to back it up with action. ;)

sub3marathonman said:
Also, I think the 15A circuit is generally the accepted procedure. It would be prudent though to have a competent electrician check the wiring gauge for the circuit, as I thought it was now common practice to run 12 gauge wiring as opposed to 14 gauge wiring, and it would be possible it could be upgraded to a 20A circuit with just switching the circuit breaker. I don't know if it would require a permit, or another inspection, but anything done has to remain NEC code compliant, as they would also have to recalculate the capacity of the entire panel to be sure it remained compliant.
I am an electrician, most residential wiring is 14awg wire and 15A breakers. Your 2 kitchen circuits are required to be 20A, one 20A laundry circuit and I think bathroom GFCI outlets are required to be 20A now, but I can't remember. 12awg wire is much more difficult to cram into a box than 14awg and it costs more so there's no reason to use 12awg except for the required circuits.
You can not put a 20A breaker on a 14awg wire.

As for the load calculation, I have to see what my service is and see if installing a larger panel (I have a very small panel with no more breaker space) and a 40A 240 outlet in the garage will overload the wires coming from the main breaker...But I think it's fine. Pretty sure it's a 125A service.
 
sub3marathonman said:
Somewhat I don't understand the battery heating in the newer LEAFs either. Will the L1 EVSE then draw more electricity to continue charging the battery at the original L1 rate, or will the charging rate of the newer LEAF be decreased by 300 watts? Which would be concerning since it is also my understanding that the LEAF itself is using about 300 watts during any charging event, L1, L2 or L3.

Most here calculate about 4.5 to 5 miles per hour, or 1kw per hour, of L1 charging, the range increase per hour is thus dependent on your driving efficiency. I'm usually at about 5.3 miles / kwh.
No the OEM L1 charger will not draw more than 12a, if the 300w battery heater kicks in you'll just have 300w less charging going into the battery. Of course as has been pointed out, the cabin heater draws much more than the 12a@120v than the OEM EVSE puts out, so you'll experience a significant reduction in battery charge preheating in the cold with only L1. In fact I even lose slight charge preheating in the extreme cold with my 16a @240v(~3.8kw) EVSE, I just about break even or ever so slightly gain charge while preheating with my 19a@240v(4.6kw) EVSE.
A Leaf with the 3.6kw charger will only charge at up to 12a @120v(for sure pre '13 Leafs) but newer Leafs with the 6.6kw charger will charge up to 27.5a @120v, of course if your EVSE will go that high on 120v.
In the extreme cold I'm lucky to top 3 miles/kwh and regen is crap :(
 
I don't have a final word, but it quickly went from "were looking into installing EVSE" to "why do people need to drive greener cars? who's asking to charge? As far as I'm concerned, that's stealing electricity from the company. we're not doing it because there's no policy about using it." This coming from the facility electrician and the facilities Supervisor.
It's a bummer that a few uneducated people can throw such a large wrench in the gears. I'm going to try getting more info out there about why I want to charge here, why I want to drive electric and let them know I don't expect to charge for free.

I wouldn't expect responses like that from a mass/public transit company....
 
Tsiah said:
I don't have a final word, but it quickly went from "were looking into installing EVSE" to "why do people need to drive greener cars? who's asking to charge? As far as I'm concerned, that's stealing electricity from the company. we're not doing it because there's no policy .....
Welcome to the the new reality! Sorry to hear, but not unexpected. At this point you can either become an advocate/champion to get charging installed or wait for the 200+ mi Bolt, Leaf or Tesla. Good luck. Spend some time reading other older threads on this website for more ideas. Basically, workplace charging can be a real bugger, especially anything closely related to government, contractors, ports, municipal districts, etc. If you can find a local upper management champion you might have a chance. Connect with the local EVA and get a few test drives for these people. Always make this a payment system, whether ChargePoint or non-network system with monthly paid parking pass. If you're lucky and very industrious, you might suggest getting funding from the VW settlement https://www.electrifyamerica.com
 
Indeed. I've been mulling it over since I heard that response. The facilities guy who originally mentioned charging stations to me was appalled at the response he got. He said his boss basically was chewing his ass for even asking.
I heard someone made a stink, demanding the company install charging stations for her to use and it's put this manager in a bad mood about electric car charging.

I'm going to keep working at it. I think my manager will be on my side, but it could still take a while to get the go ahead on installing the equipment.
 
Tsiah, I am basically in the same boat as you. I commute 35 miles each way every day, my ICE car got 28mpg average. I'm over that lifestyle. I've been watching the prices on Leafs falling as well and was immediately attracted to them. After reading lots I pretty much came to the conclusion that I needed a 2013+ SV or SL for the 2nd gen battery and better heater. Accessories like NissanConnectEV for pre-heating/cooling and checking charge status are also something I thought was essential for EV life.

I live in CO, my commute is very up and down, but the start and end elevation are the same. I got my first commute test this morning. I started at 85% charge (120v charging is a dead end) and got to work at 50%, my guesser said that I could go another 47 miles, which means theoretically I could make it back home. I used 4.7kwh/mile to work, but I used 4.3kwh home, I think from faster speeds.

On my lunch break I stopped by the local Nissan dealer (only 1.5 miles from my work luckily) and used the CHAdeMO charger while I went across the street and ate lunch (can't get better than that). After that I had 91%, but then I got home at 50% again so I'm not sure I actually could have made the drive without charging, but I'm pretty confident I could make the drive round-trip if I started at 100%. It was 50F today also, so not really cold at all so no heater just a little heated seats and pre-heating. My car has 28k but I think the battery still has many years of life left.

I was really surprised that the hills don't cause a huge loss of range compared to flat roads. I think I regen 10% or more just on one hill coming into town.

Biggest thing to do is get a Bluetooth OBD reader and Leaf Spy. I checked a handful of cars and they all had different battery health, a couple low miles cars had worse health than some higher mileage cars. I think you want to make sure it has at least 60Ah of capacity still.

Lastly like I said earlier 120v charging is a dead-end IMO. It takes at least 24 hours to charge from 10% charge, at the very least if you can't leave every morning at 100% then the EV is not useful IMO. Installing a 240v 50A line is trivial. From there you can mod your stock Nissan EVSE for 3.3kw charging or buy a 7kw one. My car has the 6.6kw charger and I would definitely recommend you get that. I was surprised at how many free L2 stations are around in my area. There are 3 or 4 around my house and 1 is only 1/2 mile away from my work. Then on top of that there are a bunch of pay stations. Sadly there are only 3 CHAdeMO chargers anywhere near me.

Just my thoughts from an EV newbie who just bought a used sub-$10k Leaf on Saturday.
 
Lastly like I said earlier 120v charging is a dead-end IMO. It takes at least 24 hours to charge from 10% charge,

Sigh. No, it takes about 19 hours to reach 100% from 10%, with another 30 minutes or so for EQ to occur. L-1 doesn't work for people with long commutes, but let's try to keep the facts straight. (This from the guy who told the OP not to buy a 24kwh Leaf.)

A suggestion: ask work to install several 240 volt dryer-type outlets, and require employees who want to charge to provide their own EVSE and pay, say, $20 a month to pay for the wiring and power. That alone would thin the potential herd of charging employees, but it would also allow 2 employees per shift to recharge per outlet. You could then use the EVSE Upgrade service to make your charging cable 240 volts at 16 amps.
 
LeftieBiker said:
Sigh. No, it takes about 19 hours to reach 100% from 10%, with another 30 minutes or so for EQ to occur. L-1 doesn't work for people with long commutes, but let's try to keep the facts straight. (This from the guy who told the OP not to buy a 24kwh Leaf.)

A suggestion: ask work to install several 240 volt dryer-type outlets, and require employees who want to charge to provide their own EVSE and pay, say, $20 a month to pay for the wiring and power. That alone would thin the potential herd of charging employees, but it would also allow 2 employees per shift to recharge per outlet. You could then use the EVSE Upgrade service to make your charging cable 240 volts at 16 amps.

What is EQ? Waiting for the cells to balance?

I'm considering asking if they would be more willing to let me charge there if I supply and install the EVSE, pipe, wire and disconnect equipment. The openevse stuff looks like it's decent quality and I don't mind assembly at all.
 
Well I did 92 miles from 100% charge until turtle today, the disclaimer being that I had to stop at an L2 charger for 30 mins on the way home and took on an extra 3kwh. I was doing awesome on the way to work, 5.2 miles/kwh going normal commuting speeds anywhere from 35 mph to 65 mph. I drove normal like I drive my ICE, not crazy hypermiling but a little accel downhill and slowdown up the hills. The kicker is on the way home my average dropped down to 3.1 because of hellacious headwinds and I stopped to charge out of caution, though I probably would have made it. I ran some errands and had a little bit of a heavy foot on my lunch break, otherwise I could do my 70 mile round trip easy peasy on my 28k used Leaf! Hope this helps you decide. At an average of 4 miles/kwh I could have done 80 miles on a charge today taking out my little charge session. The last 5% of my commute home I explored the full throttle range and drove around the block several times to burn off some watts so I could hit turtle, also. And it was 32F this morning when I left for work. All in all today made me super confident in my decision to buy this car.

e: I also ran 240v wiring and wired my 14-50 plug tonight :)
 
What is EQ? Waiting for the cells to balance?

Yes. They balance as they reach 100% indicated charge. They also seem to balance a little at 80% charge.

The dash estimates are always too long. The best theory I've read on that is that they are based on the Japanese 208 volt power grid.
 
VitaminJ said:
e: I also ran 240v wiring and wired my 14-50 plug tonight :)

Looking at where my box is and the way my Hall down stairs is laid out, I think I'm going to cut 4 6" holes and run my wire out to the garage, with the 6" holes as my ceiling access to pull wire. Then I'll install 6" can lights in my Hall and get rid of the surface mounted "boob" light fixtures. :D I've wanted to put cans in the hall anyway, so now I have another excuse to do it and kill 2 birds with one stone.
Just gotta wait till after taxes and till I find out a little more about what they're doing about charging EV's at work.
 
Oh wow! Man, the left hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing at my company! The electrician was apparently given the order to get 2 EVSE parking spots set up at the other maintenance facility when he gets back from his vacation. Our general manager told me to fill out a facilities work request and he would back my request to get a couple EVSE spots at our building too! Nothing is concrete until it's installed, but man, that's great news for me! Once I see them install gear at work, I'm going to start pulling wire and get ready for my home EVSE! I'll probably wait for a used 16 to hit the market or look for a killer deal on a new one since the sales on 24 kWh and 30 kWh cars will probably drop off because the Bolt is out now.

LeftieBiker said:
The dash estimates are always too long. The best theory I've read on that is that they are based on the Japanese 208 volt power grid.

What do you mean by based on the 208 power? Dang near all of our commercial stuff in the States is 120/208 and 277/480 3 phase power. If you live in an apartment it's most likely 120/208 power as well.
 
What do you mean by based on the 208 power? Dang near all of our commercial stuff in the States is 120/208 and 277/480 3 phase power. If you live in an apartment it's most likely 120/208 power as well.

Right, but the Leaf was designed and first built and tested in Japan. It's likely that the charge estimate was just never reprogrammed from the Japanese grid-based estimates. The estimates are much more accurate when voltage is assumed to be 208 instead of 240. (I assume that the 120 volt estimate is derived from that 208 figure as well, halved.) BTW, I think some commercial US applications also use 208 volts.
 
Tsiah said:
Oh wow! Man, the left hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing at my company! The electrician was apparently given the order to get 2 EVSE parking spots set up at the other maintenance facility when he gets back from his vacation. Our general manager told me to fill out a facilities work request and he would back my request to get a couple EVSE spots at our building too! Nothing is concrete until it's installed, but man, that's great news for me! Once I see them install gear at work, I'm going to start pulling wire and get ready for my home EVSE! I'll probably wait for a used 16 to hit the market or look for a killer deal on a new one since the sales on 24 kWh and 30 kWh cars will probably drop off because the Bolt is out now.
Nice! Congrats! I just got the go-ahead to charge at work too, that gives me so much more freedom!
 
Tsiah said:
LeftieBiker said:
The dash estimates are always too long. The best theory I've read on that is that they are based on the Japanese 208 volt power grid.

What do you mean by based on the 208 power? Dang near all of our commercial stuff in the States is 120/208 and 277/480 3 phase power. If you live in an apartment it's most likely 120/208 power as well.
I think what Leftie meant is if the time to charge is based off 208v instead of 240v, which means basically anyone charging at home, the time will show too high. Yes you are correct, basically all commercial and many apartments are 208v, so if you pull up to a commercial L2 EVSE it should correspond pretty well to the listed charging time. Oh BTW Leftie, commercial 3 phase power is still 120v(not 104v) the reason you don't get 240 from two of the 120v legs is the way the stepdown transformer works.
Commercial 3 phase power:
120v, 208v or 277v, 480v for some larger draw buildings. Note buildings that have 277v/480v will also have dedicated transformers that step that power down to 120v/208v.
Home power is single phase 120v/240v.
 
I decided to wait for a used '16. An SV just turned up on the car classifieds today. 2,891 miles, $17,980. It's a chunk more than I wanted to spend, but I'm going to see if I can get them down to $16,000-$17,000 total out the door. The payment will be around $300/ month plus my cost to charge.
It's not saving me money at this point on my commute, but if gas goes up to $4/ gallon again, I'm saving at that point... my cost to get to and from work won't fluctuate like gas does, very little maintenance which saves me a lot of time and some money.
 
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