Nissan: We Can Match Bolt

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what is the range on them? for some reason, I thought they were only slightly more than what I have now

The Ioniq? The lowest figure I've seen is 88 miles at 23F. The highest real world figure seems to be around 150 miles, with 125 a safe bet. That's more than enough for me if I like the car and it's affordable wit the options I need.

If anyone from the Ioniq forum is reading this, the site registered me automatically this morning and I was able to post once. Now I can't log in, can't get a PW sent to me, haven't heard from a Moderator...
 
LeftieBiker said:
what is the range on them? for some reason, I thought they were only slightly more than what I have now

The Ioniq? The lowest figure I've seen is 88 miles at 23F. The highest real world figure seems to be around 150 miles, with 125 a safe bet. That's more than enough for me if I like the car and it's affordable wit the options I need.

If anyone from the Ioniq forum is reading this, the site registered me automatically this morning and I was able to post once. Now I can't log in, can't get a PW sent to me, haven't heard from a Moderator...

that is a pretty big range. what is the battery size? I thought I remembered 33?
 
Real world range varies widely, in the real world. That range is from full heat in cold weather at freeway speeds, to no climate control at secondary road speeds in nice weather. I believe the pack's usable capacity is about 30kwh, with the actual not specified. It's larger than the Leaf's, and the car is significantly more efficient than the Leaf, especially at highway speeds.
 
LeftieBiker said:
I'm not impressed with Nissan as a car company either - or especially as an EV builder. However, it's hard to blame them for the American public's nearly complete indifference to the Leaf, and to similar EVs. They could have tried more and better advertising, but I doubt it would have made any difference in the mediocre sales of the car. Low gas prices, combined with the political polarization of the country, make this a poor place to try to sell EVs, outside of the luxury market. Maybe that will change with the Model 3, but I wouldn't bet my bank account on that happening.

I think that is not a fair representation of history.

Nissan rolled the dice and went with uncooled batteries. They got caught up in battery issues that derailed their other (offering multiple battery sizes etc) plans. If they didn't have battery issues, you can bet they'd have a 200 mile Leaf earlier than Bolt or Tesla 3.

But, it is not unusual for pioneers to lose out - several industries are littered with innovative companies that just died out - or legacy companies that couldn't capitalize on innovations.

But one thing for sure - Nissan is now a non-inspiring name in the EV game, even with highest global EV sales in 2016.
 
DaveinOlyWA said:
The LEAF and the Bolt are in different segments of the market. Right now using a formula that takes into consideration both price and range, the LEAF is a much better deal. But then again, Bolts are going for premium plus pricing and LEAFs are being discounted up to 50%

Yeah the Bolt seems like a poor buy right now. They're going for MSRP, plus on the lease only $2500 discount is being given, with the rest being an inflated residual. Maybe it looks better if you just outright buy, provided you can take the whole tax credit (unfortunately, many cannot).

Hopefully things start to look more favorable over the course of the year as all the early adopters get cleared out. Right now it's tough to justify the cost of the Bolt vs the Leaf. The Leaf can definitely still compete on price. But Nissan is definitely going to have to step up their game with the other cars that are coming to the market over the next couple of years. 2018 is looking like it will be an exciting time for EV enthusiasts.
 
LeftieBiker said:
Real world range varies widely, in the real world. That range is from full heat in cold weather at freeway speeds, to no climate control at secondary road speeds in nice weather. I believe the pack's usable capacity is about 30kwh, with the actual not specified. It's larger than the Leaf's, and the car is significantly more efficient than the Leaf, especially at highway speeds.

If you compare based on EPA numbers it looks like the Ioniq is about 20% more efficient, but has only a 15% greater range. So its battery may actually be smaller than the 2017 Leaf's? It seems like a pretty solid car.

http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/Find.do?action=sbs&id=38431&id=38484&id=38485&id=38428
 
LeftieBiker said:
Somewhere in the Ioniq forum I read that Hyundai gives the pack size as 'between 30 and 34kwh.' The guess is that it's 32.
More likely about 31 kWh total capacity, IMO.

But ~28kWh available from the Ioniq pack seems pretty well confirmed by the multiple range/capacity tests posted ON THE IONIQ THREAD-repost below.

The Ioniq's low drag means excellent results in high speed driving, and low weight means the Ioniq also surpasses all other (?) BEVs in efficiency in stop-and-go city driving, as shown in the video below:

Hyundai Ioniq BEV, hybrid, and PHEV.

edatoakrun said:
Meanwhile, back at the 2016 28kWh (available, we think) pack...

Looks like the max speed was ~35 mph, ambient temperature averaged about 77 F, and the whole drive took almost eight hours.

Increased efficiency means about 50% more range, with only ~33% greater available kWh than we had in our 2011 LEAFs.

“The Ministry of Environment officially approved that IONIQ electric’s mileage on a single charge is 191.2Km.
However, real mileage was confirmed to be 351.1Km, when it was tested.

IONIQ electric was driven at an average speed of 50Km/h (~31 mph) in a downtown like environment, using engine brake with 3-stage regenerative braking device.
Then, it recorded real mileage of 351.1Km, (~218 miles) which is higher than official mileage.

We drove around Hangang River four times, starting from Hyundai Autoway Tower Electric-car Charge Station.
As if it were in the middle of commuting, mileage was measured, while driving through downtown and congested areas, including Olympic highway and Gangbyeon highway.”
http://pushevs.com/2016/10/30/hyundai-ioniq-electric-range-test/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OW56pVtWPJo

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=21136&start=70

Back on-topic, any BEV that tries to "match" the bolt on battery capacity, will be severely compromised in terms of efficiency and total cost of ownership, just as the Bolt is.

If Nissan cannot come close to matching the Ioniq in TCO and efficiency, then it will be nearly as unlikely it will sell me one as that GM can sell me a Bolt.
 
Nagorak said:
2018 is looking like it will be an exciting time for EV enthusiasts.

I feel like we, as a community, have been saying this for about 6 years now. Just wait until next year. It will be exciting then! I have come to believe that it will continue to slowly get better through this decade. By 2020, we will (hopefully) see EVs as common in the general public's mindset as "traditional" (non-plug-in) hybrids. Yes, they are out there, and viable options. But they are "not for me" (says Joe consumer).

Nagorak said:
If you compare based on EPA numbers it looks like the IONIQ is about 20% more efficient, but has only a 15% greater range. So its battery may actually be smaller than the 2017 Leaf's? It seems like a pretty solid car.

http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/Find.do?action=sbs&id=38431&id=38484&id=38485&id=38428

The trouble with EPA numbers is that they include charging losses and not just battery-to-wheel. So you can't just use them to compare battery sizes between cars. If the IONIQ also has a more efficient charger than the Leaf, it could skew the numbers like this.
 
Speaking of more efficient chargers, I wish that Nissan and other Japanese automakers would boost the on-board chargers up to 9.6kW, which is 40amps at 240v. This business of 3.6kW and 6.6kW is bologna.
 
Durandal said:
Speaking of more efficient chargers, I wish that Nissan and other Japanese automakers would boost the on-board chargers up to 9.6kW, which is 40amps at 240v. This business of 3.6kW and 6.6kW is bologna.

hmmm, seems to me I read somewhere that the extra medium load a house in the US could take was roughly that...
 
DaveinOlyWA said:
Durandal said:
Speaking of more efficient chargers, I wish that Nissan and other Japanese automakers would boost the on-board chargers up to 9.6kW, which is 40amps at 240v. This business of 3.6kW and 6.6kW is bologna.

hmmm, seems to me I read somewhere that the extra medium load a house in the US could take was roughly that...
Aim not sure what you are saying here, Dave.

The available load in a house should not drive the decision of the in board charger but of the EVSE installed in one's garage. There is certainly merit in buying an EV with a 240V/80A on board charger even if the EVSE in your garage is only 32A. Even here in Syracuse, there are 80A public EVSEs around at various hotels and other destinations.
 
GetOffYourGas said:
DaveinOlyWA said:
Durandal said:
Speaking of more efficient chargers, I wish that Nissan and other Japanese automakers would boost the on-board chargers up to 9.6kW, which is 40amps at 240v. This business of 3.6kW and 6.6kW is bologna.

hmmm, seems to me I read somewhere that the extra medium load a house in the US could take was roughly that...
Aim not sure what you are saying here, Dave.

The available load in a house should not drive the decision of the in board charger but of the EVSE installed in one's garage. There is certainly merit in buying an EV with a 240V/80A on board charger even if the EVSE in your garage is only 32A. Even here in Syracuse, there are 80A public EVSEs around at various hotels and other destinations.

need to roll much farther back on the time line here. This was engineering decision. you are thinking "owner". you need to think "designer"

I don't remember the details of the article but guessing most Japanese households simply could not add a huge load without upgrading.

FYI; this also true of many older homes in the US.

now after all that; I am only mentioning this so speculating after the fact is something that is done extensively here but won't change a thing and nothing said will be any righter or wronger since in the grand scheme of things; we simply don't know why the decision was made...
 
Durandal said:
Speaking of more efficient chargers, I wish that Nissan and other Japanese automakers would boost the on-board chargers up to 9.6kW, which is 40amps at 240v. This business of 3.6kW and 6.6kW is bologna.


For home charging this is not needed in the majority of cases nor can it be supported. Public charges do not support this and the added cost and weight is expensive passed on to the consumer. In fact the majority of LEAF owners can get by with 3.8kw charging 90% of the time. If you have a very large pack then a larger charger is sometimes needed. I never used the 9.6kw charger in my RAV once and usually charged at 3.8 or 6.0 ish.
 
EVDRIVER said:
Durandal said:
Speaking of more efficient chargers, I wish that Nissan and other Japanese automakers would boost the on-board chargers up to 9.6kW, which is 40amps at 240v. This business of 3.6kW and 6.6kW is bologna.


For home charging this is not needed in the majority of cases nor can it be supported. Public charges do not support this and the added cost and weight is expensive passed on to the consumer. In fact the majority of LEAF owners can get by with 3.8kw charging 90% of the time. If you have a very large pack then a larger charger is sometimes needed. I never used the 9.6kw charger in my RAV once and usually charged at 3.8 or 6.0 ish.

I disagree on public charging only.

For home charging, 3.8 kW is OK most of the time, and 6.x-7.2 is the most I'd like.

There are a fair number of 60 Amp and 80 Amp charging stations out in the hinderlands. Charging at 19.2kW with a larger battery would make some of the trips I'm thinking about fairly easy. Sure, not a DCFC, but about three times faster than than 6.x kW or 7.2kW. Difference is a hour and a half stop vs four and a half hours. Yes, I'm thinking about a 60 kWh battery, not a current Leaf.
 
EVDRIVER said:
Durandal said:
Speaking of more efficient chargers, I wish that Nissan and other Japanese automakers would boost the on-board chargers up to 9.6kW, which is 40amps at 240v. This business of 3.6kW and 6.6kW is bologna.


For home charging this is not needed in the majority of cases nor can it be supported. Public charges do not support this and the added cost and weight is expensive passed on to the consumer. In fact the majority of LEAF owners can get by with 3.8kw charging 90% of the time. If you have a very large pack then a larger charger is sometimes needed. I never used the 9.6kw charger in my RAV once and usually charged at 3.8 or 6.0 ish.

Unfortunately I encounter the situation where I need 40 amps of charging about once every month. I don't live in an urban area, so if I'm doing a lot of errands, or need to go somewhere 2 hours after returning home, I cannot do so if the destination is too far. A 9.6kW charger would solve this. I now have a bit of regret of having a 2012 SL instead of a 2013, with it limiting me to 3.6kW.
 
EVDRIVER said:
Durandal said:
Speaking of more efficient chargers, I wish that Nissan and other Japanese automakers would boost the on-board chargers up to 9.6kW, which is 40amps at 240v. This business of 3.6kW and 6.6kW is bologna.


For home charging this is not needed in the majority of cases nor can it be supported. Public charges do not support this and the added cost and weight is expensive passed on to the consumer. In fact the majority of LEAF owners can get by with 3.8kw charging 90% of the time. If you have a very large pack then a larger charger is sometimes needed. I never used the 9.6kw charger in my RAV once and usually charged at 3.8 or 6.0 ish.

yep its all about cost and convenience. They likely picked 3.8 because it was fast enough to get an overnight charge.
 
DaveinOlyWA said:
EVDRIVER said:
Durandal said:
Speaking of more efficient chargers, I wish that Nissan and other Japanese automakers would boost the on-board chargers up to 9.6kW, which is 40amps at 240v. This business of 3.6kW and 6.6kW is bologna.


For home charging this is not needed in the majority of cases nor can it be supported. Public charges do not support this and the added cost and weight is expensive passed on to the consumer. In fact the majority of LEAF owners can get by with 3.8kw charging 90% of the time. If you have a very large pack then a larger charger is sometimes needed. I never used the 9.6kw charger in my RAV once and usually charged at 3.8 or 6.0 ish.

yep its all about cost and convenience. They likely picked 3.8 because it was fast enough to get an overnight charge.


If you charge on 3.8 and need 6.0 because you need a quick 1 hour charge to go back out is moot because the difference is so small in miles added. The reality is that higher pack density and capacity solves the issue. In the bay area there are very few chargers over 6kw.
 
EVDRIVER said:
The reality is that higher pack density and capacity solves the issue. In the bay area there are very few chargers over 6kw.

And for the trip to Port Hardy, BC, there are a fair number of 100 Amp and 80 Amp 240V/208V Sun Country charging stations. Not much else.

Or the 48A in Republic WA. And the 70A in Omak WA. And the 70A in Winthrop, WA. Or the two 68A at Hobuck Beach Resort, Neah Bay, WA.

It would be nice to stop at the Hospitality Inn in Port Alberni, BC, and eat lunch while the car charges at 70A/208V. 14.5kW. Or stay the night, for that matter, and need half as much charging time.
 
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