Nissan: We Can Match Bolt

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WetEV said:
EVDRIVER said:
The reality is that higher pack density and capacity solves the issue. In the bay area there are very few chargers over 6kw.

And for the trip to Port Hardy, BC, there are a fair number of 100 Amp and 80 Amp 240V/208V Sun Country charging stations. Not much else.

Or the 48A in Republic WA. And the 70A in Omak WA. And the 70A in Winthrop, WA. Or the two 68A at Hobuck Beach Resort, Neah Bay, WA.

It would be nice to stop at the Hospitality Inn in Port Alberni, BC, and eat lunch while the car charges at 70A/208V. 14.5kW. Or stay the night, for that matter, and need half as much charging time.


The bay area has very few and 40A plus charging locations. I have only come across one ever. As demand grows for stations I expect the kw to be restricted more to allow for capacity issues. Many companies are installing L1 over L2 because of capacity VS available slots for commuters that work all day. Our DC is pretty weak as well, relatively speaking.
 
DaveinOlyWA said:
need to roll much farther back on the time line here. This was engineering decision. you are thinking "owner". you need to think "designer"

I don't remember the details of the article but guessing most Japanese households simply could not add a huge load without upgrading.

FYI; this also true of many older homes in the US.

now after all that; I am only mentioning this so speculating after the fact is something that is done extensively here but won't change a thing and nothing said will be any righter or wronger since in the grand scheme of things; we simply don't know why the decision was made...

That line of thought is fine for a first-time design. Which the Leaf was in 2010. However, now there are hundreds of thousands of EV owners out there with new experiences. I do not accept using this line of reasoning as a crutch for future designs. The spare capacity in a typical house should not result in a design constraint such as this.

All we are saying is that, moving forward, it would be nice if EVs were offered with the option of 80A charging. I'm fine with the base model staying with 15A. Let the users decide. It cannot cost that much to build in the flexibility to the design.
 
GetOffYourGas said:
DaveinOlyWA said:
need to roll much farther back on the time line here. This was engineering decision. you are thinking "owner". you need to think "designer"

I don't remember the details of the article but guessing most Japanese households simply could not add a huge load without upgrading.

FYI; this also true of many older homes in the US.

now after all that; I am only mentioning this so speculating after the fact is something that is done extensively here but won't change a thing and nothing said will be any righter or wronger since in the grand scheme of things; we simply don't know why the decision was made...

That line of thought is fine for a first-time design. Which the Leaf was in 2010. However, now there are hundreds of thousands of EV owners out there with new experiences. I do not accept using this line of reasoning as a crutch for future designs. The spare capacity in a typical house should not result in a design constraint such as this.

All we are saying is that, moving forward, it would be nice if EVs were offered with the option of 80A charging. I'm fine with the base model staying with 15A. Let the users decide. It cannot cost that much to build in the flexibility to the design.

40 and 80A options would be VERY expensive as the demand would be low, to reduce the cost auto makers would need to spread the cost on all cars. 80A charging is very fringe, even few Tesla owners add that option and the few that do rarely can or do use it ever. I actually know some drivers that have removed the 80A capacity to 40A because of this and it's additional unused weight.
 
EVDRIVER said:
I actually know some drivers that have removed the 80A capacity to 40A because of this and it's additional unused weight.
:lol: :lol: :lol:

Seriously?? The additional weight one charger adds was killing the owner's range so they "paid" Tesla the $500 (which is exact amount of ANY SC to install or remove) to remove something they already paid $2000 or $2500???

And you know multiple people that have done this? :roll: I'd love to see their before and after Wh/mi results!
 
JasonA said:
EVDRIVER said:
I actually know some drivers that have removed the 80A capacity to 40A because of this and it's additional unused weight.
:lol: :lol: :lol:

Seriously?? The additional weight one charger adds was killing the owner's range so they "paid" Tesla the $500 (which is exact amount of ANY SC to install or remove) to remove something they already paid $2000 or $2500???

And you know multiple people that have done this? :roll: I'd love to see their before and after Wh/mi results!

Where exactly did I ever say it was killing their range or that is was removed for that reason? Yes the second module is heavy and there is no sense in hauling that weight if it is never used, it is not insignificant as additional payload. You assume they paid they extra $2k as well for this option, they did not. You can also use that spare part elsewhere. Every assumption you made was incorrect.

Let me add:

:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:
 
EVDRIVER said:
40 and 80A options would be VERY expensive as the demand would be low, to reduce the cost auto makers would need to spread the cost on all cars.

Looks like it would cost about a grand assuming low volume purchase of parts

http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php/10kw-60a-diy-charger-open-source-59210.html
 
rmay635703 said:
EVDRIVER said:
40 and 80A options would be VERY expensive as the demand would be low, to reduce the cost auto makers would need to spread the cost on all cars.

Looks like it would cost about a grand assuming low volume purchase of parts

http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php/10kw-60a-diy-charger-open-source-59210.html


Auto makers like Tesla make quality parts that are designed to be reliable and safe, This is not an OEM solution to say the least. Let's not go down that path.
 
It probably would make more sense to have a "decent" charger built into the car, and then have higher powered external chargers that could be carried in the trunk for those who need them. I'm thinking something that could interface with the car battery via the DCQC port.

There's no point equipping all cars for something that is a currently a niche requirement. Maybe in 20 years if EVs catch on we'll all be charging at 80 amps though.
 
EVDRIVER said:
WetEV said:
EVDRIVER said:
The reality is that higher pack density and capacity solves the issue. In the bay area there are very few chargers over 6kw.

And for the trip to Port Hardy, BC, there are a fair number of 100 Amp and 80 Amp 240V/208V Sun Country charging stations. Not much else.

Or the 48A in Republic WA. And the 70A in Omak WA. And the 70A in Winthrop, WA. Or the two 68A at Hobuck Beach Resort, Neah Bay, WA.

It would be nice to stop at the Hospitality Inn in Port Alberni, BC, and eat lunch while the car charges at 70A/208V. 14.5kW. Or stay the night, for that matter, and need half as much charging time.


The bay area has very few and 40A plus charging locations. I have only come across one ever. As demand grows for stations I expect the kw to be restricted more to allow for capacity issues. Many companies are installing L1 over L2 because of capacity VS available slots for commuters that work all day. Our DC is pretty weak as well, relatively speaking.

same here. isn't it a bit strange that two of the most robust and earliest EV adoption areas has fallen so far behind many areas of the country. I recently saw a plugshare map of the Northeast and they are blowing us away! So are many areas of the country. Its starting to look like being first out has penalized us in some way
 
Nagorak said:
It probably would make more sense to have a "decent" charger built into the car, and then have higher powered external chargers that could be carried in the trunk for those who need them. I'm thinking something that could interface with the car battery via the DCQC port.

There's no point equipping all cars for something that is a currently a niche requirement. Maybe in 20 years if EVs catch on we'll all be charging at 80 amps though.


You just described DC charging. Tesla will be increasing super charger rates again and there is very low demand past the 40A charger because the supercharger network is so good and growing fast. The issue is the other networks and lack of commitment by the govt and the auto makers. The Bolt with it's issues would be a huge seller if it had access to a supercharger network. GM is trying to play catch up again with a few toes in the water.
 
EVDRIVER said:
Nagorak said:
It probably would make more sense to have a "decent" charger built into the car, and then have higher powered external chargers that could be carried in the trunk for those who need them. I'm thinking something that could interface with the car battery via the DCQC port.

There's no point equipping all cars for something that is a currently a niche requirement. Maybe in 20 years if EVs catch on we'll all be charging at 80 amps though.


You just described DC charging. Tesla will be increasing super charger rates again and there is very low demand past the 40A charger because the supercharger network is so good and growing fast. The issue is the other networks and lack of commitment by the govt and the auto makers. The Bolt with it's issues would be a huge seller if it had access to a supercharger network. GM is trying to play catch up again with a few toes in the water.

funny but nearly every Bolt owner I have talked to said they switched so they wouldn't have to charge publicly at all
 
DaveinOlyWA said:
EVDRIVER said:
Nagorak said:
It probably would make more sense to have a "decent" charger built into the car, and then have higher powered external chargers that could be carried in the trunk for those who need them. I'm thinking something that could interface with the car battery via the DCQC port.

There's no point equipping all cars for something that is a currently a niche requirement. Maybe in 20 years if EVs catch on we'll all be charging at 80 amps though.


You just described DC charging. Tesla will be increasing super charger rates again and there is very low demand past the 40A charger because the supercharger network is so good and growing fast. The issue is the other networks and lack of commitment by the govt and the auto makers. The Bolt with it's issues would be a huge seller if it had access to a supercharger network. GM is trying to play catch up again with a few toes in the water.

funny but nearly every Bolt owner I have talked to said they switched so they wouldn't have to charge publicly at all

Yes, with any longer range EV you have more opportunity to charge at home. But good luck driving distances in a Bolt in CA, I simply could not travel to the places I go. Sure it's a vast improvement but the network for long distance travel here is terrible at best.
 
EVDRIVER said:
DaveinOlyWA said:
EVDRIVER said:
You just described DC charging. Tesla will be increasing super charger rates again and there is very low demand past the 40A charger because the supercharger network is so good and growing fast. The issue is the other networks and lack of commitment by the govt and the auto makers. The Bolt with it's issues would be a huge seller if it had access to a supercharger network. GM is trying to play catch up again with a few toes in the water.

funny but nearly every Bolt owner I have talked to said they switched so they wouldn't have to charge publicly at all

Yes, with any longer range EV you have more opportunity to charge at home. But good luck driving distances in a Bolt in CA, I simply could not travel to the places I go. Sure it's a vast improvement but the network for long distance travel here is terrible at best.

agreed. same here. as long as I stay on I-5 I am ok but stray from that and NOTHING... The Washington Coast is a worldwide tourist destination but the only options is a Telsa and they have an SC in Aberdeen (which is essentially the gateway to the coast) but no fast charge options for anyone else. So if you go, plan to spend a LOT of time...
 
EVDRIVER said:
Where exactly did I ever say it was killing their range or that is was removed for that reason? Yes the second module is heavy and there is no sense in hauling that weight if it is never used, it is not insignificant as additional payload. You assume they paid they extra $2k as well for this option, they did not. You can also use that spare part elsewhere. Every assumption you made was incorrect.

Let me add:

:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:
If you think the charger in a Tesla is heavy (there is no difference between the two) then you need to hit the gym or get off the computer or move something more then the mouse. :lol:

And yes, the ONLY reason someone would pull up the seat, kill the power, remove the unit is because "THEY" though the extra weight was hurting their range... If it wasn't then why do it in the first place? I swear you and Phil are one in the same. You both make statements with nothing to back it up.

Tell us the reason "THESE MULTIPLE PEOPLE" went through the trouble of removing their second onboard chargers then? Unless they really needed the cash. :roll:

And you keep saying "THEY"... and
You can also use that spare part elsewhere.
Unless Phil (aka Engineer) is doing this to another EV which would add EVEN MORE weight to a smaller EV and go against what BOTH YOU AND HIM TOLD ME AND THE OTHERS NOT TO DO WITH THE BRUSA...

I don't see your point or argument here?

Or any proof and nothing that backs it up and on TMC as well...
 
JasonA said:
EVDRIVER said:
Where exactly did I ever say it was killing their range or that is was removed for that reason? Yes the second module is heavy and there is no sense in hauling that weight if it is never used, it is not insignificant as additional payload. You assume they paid they extra $2k as well for this option, they did not. You can also use that spare part elsewhere. Every assumption you made was incorrect.

Let me add:

:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:
If you think the charger in a Tesla is heavy (there is no difference between the two) then you need to hit the gym or get off the computer or move something more then the mouse. :lol:

And yes, the ONLY reason someone would pull up the seat, kill the power, remove the unit is because "THEY" though the extra weight was hurting their range... If it wasn't then why do it in the first place? I swear you and Phil are one in the same. You both make statements with nothing to back it up.

Tell us the reason "THESE MULTIPLE PEOPLE" went through the trouble of removing their second onboard chargers then? Unless they really needed the cash. :roll:

And you keep saying "THEY"... and
You can also use that spare part elsewhere.
Unless Phil (aka Engineer) is doing this to another EV which would add EVEN MORE weight to a smaller EV and go against what BOTH YOU AND HIM TOLD ME AND THE OTHERS NOT TO DO WITH THE BRUSA...

I don't see your point or argument here?

Or any proof and nothing that backs it up and on TMC as well...


Nothing you say is related to my point and mostly nonsensical ranting as usual. I'm going to just add you back to my blocked list. Jason, no one has ever removed a charger from a Tesla because they don't like extra unused weight, you are correct. It's all made up. You win your silly assumptive argument. It's just crazy and since it's not on a Tesla forum it's all made up. I love the logic and the pettiness.
 
EVDRIVER said...
Jason, no one has ever removed a charger from a Tesla because they don't like extra unused weight,

EVDRIVER wrote:
I actually know some drivers that have removed the 80A capacity to 40A because of this and it's additional unused weight.

EVDRIVER wrote:
You can also use that spare part elsewhere.

So which is it DUDE??? I'm still waiting for your replies since YOU made the statements! :lol: :lol:

You always were full of crap... Phil too... saying we were all going to die... our Leafs were going to fail, we were going to cause massive cell phone noise and EMI.. etc.etc.etc blah blah blah..

Again... put up or shut..

Where's the data or proof to your statements above??
 
EVDRIVER said:
rmay635703 said:
Looks like it would cost about a grand assuming low volume purchase of parts

http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php/10kw-60a-diy-charger-open-source-59210.html

Auto makers like Tesla make quality parts that are designed to be reliable and safe, This is not an OEM solution to say the least. Let's not go down that path.

Remove the word Tesla and I mostly agree but, the price of low quality hobby grade parts is usually many times what an OEM would pay for safe high grade parts in volume.

So my argument that it's about a grand is likely correct, from what I've been told the charger in the volt costs Chevy under $200, there is likely no real reason not to have 40 or even 80 amp capability built into every EV
 
rmay635703 said:
EVDRIVER said:
rmay635703 said:
Looks like it would cost about a grand assuming low volume purchase of parts

http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php/10kw-60a-diy-charger-open-source-59210.html

Auto makers like Tesla make quality parts that are designed to be reliable and safe, This is not an OEM solution to say the least. Let's not go down that path.

Remove the word Tesla and I mostly agree but, the price of low quality hobby grade parts is usually many times what an OEM would pay for safe high grade parts in volume.

So my argument that it's about a grand is likely correct, from what I've been told the charger in the volt costs Chevy under $200, there is likely no real reason not to have 40 or even 80 amp capability built into every EV


That pricing is not how auto makers price items, you or I may add $250 they do not. A $200 cost is VERY high, if they can cut a penny here and there they do. They grind suppliers to the bone. You may see more 7.2kw chargers and some larger 40A but Tesla is moving away from that and public stations would be better suited with smaller AC and one or more DC units even if they can only support 80A at that location, this gives any car with a DC port access. On my RAV I never used the 40A capacity but I really could have used a DC port.
 
Yeah you guys are right. Having a large onboard charger is kind of silly. It makes more sense to just have DCQC stations that are external to the car. It's a better solution. At home you really shouldn't need to charge at more than 40 amps.
 
Nagorak said:
Yeah you guys are right. Having a large onboard charger is kind of silly. It makes more sense to just have DCQC stations that are external to the car. It's a better solution. At home you really shouldn't need to charge at more than 40 amps.

Agreed this is the ideal long-term solution. Chargers are expensive; it is better to have a few that are located "on the ground" (literally) and shared by many EVs than to have a large one in every EV running around.

On the flip side, the market is not yet large enough to support an independent charging network. With the high cost of chargers, it is currently impossible for a company to become profitable selling only electricity. It is much cheaper for them to install an 80A J1772 connector than even a 20kW DC charger.

I don't know the best way forward on this dilemma, but it seems to me that the more options we have, the better. Which is why, at this point, I would love to see the option for a higher-power on board charger.
 
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