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SageBrush said:
I have never understood this argument since these people waiting in line do not then work less, but I agree that most people value their off-work time at more than $1 an hour.

It depends on what your job is, honestly. For me, I value my free time at the same rate I value my work time. Any time I am at work is time I'm not doing something that I would rather be doing. And I certainly don't care to stand around waiting in line. I order online virtually anything I can, because that's time I don't have to drive to the store, stand in line, etc, etc. It takes me 30 seconds to order something once I know what I want, and I don't go to the store until I know what I want in most cases. All of my research has been done prior. As a Leaf owner, I suspect you probably knew more about the Leaf than the salesman that was selling it to you. I know I did.
 
End of December, and end of 2016 summary. 15 U.S. SCs opened this month, making 92 for the year* and 340 total. Memphis, TN (12/1, U.S. 72 near I-240, and poorly placed for both I-40/I-55 travel); Ogallala and Gothenburg, NE (12/2, I-80); Tarrytown, NY (12/2, I-87/287); Santa Ana, CA (12/6, I-5 infill); Twentynine Palms, CA (12/9, S.R. 62, access to Joshua Tree); Groveland and Fish Camp, CA (12/16, S.R. 120 and S.R. 41, Yosemite gateways); Mt. Gilead, OH 12/17, I-71); Texarkana, TX (12/21, I-30/49); Aberdeen, WA (12/22, U.S. 101); Clearwater, MN (12/22, I-94); Midland, TX (12/24, I-10); Loveland, CO (12/29, I-25 infill/near U.S. 34 access to Rocky Mountain N.P.); Brush, CO (12/31, I-76).

11 U.S. SCs were known to be under construction: Fremont #2, CA (in stasis); Las Vegas #2, NV; Lima, MT; Junction, Ozona, and Van Horn, TX; Lincoln and Grand Island, NE; Kuttawa, KY; Naples, FL; Scranton (Moosic), PA.

No Canadian SCs completed in December. There are 24 Canadian SCs total.

2 Canadian SCs were known to be under construction: Merritt, BC, and Oakville, ON.

*This is the first year that the number of U.S. SCs opening was less than the previous year's total.
 
Re waiting time value, numerous studies have shown that on average people value their commute time at about half their hourly rate (or the equivalent, if salaried), although there's wide variation. Just search "commute time value" and a bunch of links to studies and articles will come up.

I've never understood why people are willing to sit at Costco or any other mobbed gas station to save a few cents/gallon. I can understand if the savings are a lot greater, but in general you won't find two gas stations in close proximity with wildly different pricing. In my case, I normally fill up about 1.6 miles away instead of at my nearest station 1.5 blocks away. Neither requires more than a couple of minutes wait (at the most - I can usually just drive right up to the pump), but the one I use is currently $0.36/gallon cheaper. That more than makes up for the gas used in driving there and back even if I make a special trip (I usually wait until I'm passing by on the way to somewhere else), as I'm always taking 10 to 15 gallons.
 
Durandal said:
SageBrush said:
I have never understood this argument since these people waiting in line do not then work less, but I agree that most people value their off-work time at more than $1 an hour.

It depends on what your job is, honestly.
I am probably atypical, but I work as much as I want to and the connection to money is not strong. This leads to choices during off-work that are also not money motivated per se, although I am quite frugal and often spend time doing things that save me money. In any case though, I've yet to meet a person who works less because they saved some money in some other way, so the temptation to evaluate the Costco goers by their hourly wage does not make sense to me.
 
SageBrush said:
Durandal said:
SageBrush said:
I have never understood this argument since these people waiting in line do not then work less, but I agree that most people value their off-work time at more than $1 an hour.

It depends on what your job is, honestly.
I am probably atypical, but I work as much as I want to and the connection to money is not strong. This leads to choices during off-work that are also not money motivated per se, although I am quite frugal and often spend time doing things that save me money. In any case though, I've yet to meet a person who works less because they saved some money in some other way, so the temptation to evaluate the Costco goers by their hourly wage does not make sense to me.

Time is not an easy thing to put a price to?
How would you go about placing a monetary figure to an hour of your time?

To a child, time is generally has a much smaller value.
To someone with hours to live, it is probably quite valuable.

Quality is also an issue. To someone enjoying themselves, time may be the last thing on their mind. To someone waiting in a long line in an uncomfortable situation, time can't pass fast enough and is very much at the top of their mind.

If you have a better way to put a value on the average person's time, go for it, I'd love a more valid comparison.
 
Zythryn said:
How would you go about placing a monetary figure to an hour of your time?

If you have a better way to put a value on the average person's time, go for it, I'd love a more valid comparison.
My father used to say that 'work' is something you do not want to do. So while I do not share whatever motivation(s) the Costco fuel pump visitors have, they are as valid as any other. I would also suggest keeping in mind that most people have an income ceiling, so they might be willing to 'work' for a low hourly savings rate for the marginal improvement in their finances.
 
SageBrush said:
Zythryn said:
How would you go about placing a monetary figure to an hour of your time?

If you have a better way to put a value on the average person's time, go for it, I'd love a more valid comparison.
My father used to say that 'work' is something you do not want to do. So while I do not share whatever motivation(s) the Costco fuel pump visitors have, they are as valid as any other. I would also suggest keeping in mind that most people have an income ceiling, so they might be willing to 'work' for a low hourly savings rate for the marginal improvement in their finances.

Agreed, however that doesn't answer the question.
What dollar value should be attributed to an hour of someone's time?

The eaIest comparison, because it is something most people are familiar with, is their hourly wage/rate.
This is especially true for people who bill on an hourly basis.
The logic goes like this: "I bill X dollars for my time, therefore my time is worth X".

You obviously don't agree with this method, so I am wondering how you would put a value on an hour of time?
 
Zythryn said:
You obviously don't agree with this method, so I am wondering how you would put a value on an hour of time?
Sorry, I thought I was being clear. I do not think it is possible to put a monetary value on time, because the activity's "value" is influenced by desire to participate and whatever other motivations are in play. You may as well try to monetize enjoyment or revenge. I have chatted with people before who e.g. pay $75 - $100 for a car engine oil change and explain the behavior as worthwhile based on their 'work' compensation. It is very rarely true. What is really going on is that these people are either incompetent, afraid, or find the chore so distasteful that they are willing to pay exorbitant prices to have someone else perform the job. The monetization is just a rationalization.

I am paid about $150 an hour to go to the work-place, but most of my time is being on-call doing whatever I want so from one POV my hourly 'work' rate is around $1000 an hour. Clearly I should rationally only 'work' and play, but I actually spend a lot of time doing what most people would think of as chores. It sorts out this way because I like (well, more like value) chores and more time at home and want to continue enjoying going to work.
 
SageBrush said:
Zythryn said:
You obviously don't agree with this method, so I am wondering how you would put a value on an hour of time?
Sorry, I thought I was being clear. I do not think it is possible to put a monetary value on time, because the activity's "value" is influenced by desire to participate and whatever other motivations are in play. You may as well try to monetize enjoyment or revenge. I have chatted with people before who e.g. pay $75 - $100 for a car engine oil change and explain the behavior as worthwhile based on their 'work' compensation. It is very rarely true. What is really going on is that these people are either incompetent, afraid, or find the chore so distasteful that they are willing to pay exorbitant prices to have someone else perform the job. The monetization is just a rationalization.

I am paid about $150 an hour to go to the work-place, but most of my time is being on-call doing whatever I want so from one POV my hourly 'work' rate is around $1000 an hour. Clearly I should rationally only 'work' and play, but I actually spend a lot of time doing what most people would think of as chores. It sorts out this way because I like (well, more like value) chores and more time at home and want to continue enjoying going to work.

And I completely understand that point of view.
In our culture though, many people, for many decades have equated time with money.
Terms such as "how much is your time worth to you" and "time is money" are everywhere.

So if someone does choose to make that comparison, in their mind, the most direct comparison is hourly wages/rate.
 
Having retired young long ago I work at volunteer jobs, for which I don't get paid. I guess that makes my time worth zero, right?

Actually my volunteer work has other compensation: for the structured jobs that involve working with others, the social aspects are important, since otherwise I live alone as a recluse. For the individual jobs that hardly anybody knows about, it is the satisfaction of doing something that needs to be done — somebody has to do it, why not me? Pretty hard to convert those sorts of things to dollars and cents per hour. Although it doesn't pay well, I enjoy my volunteer work more than I did my career as a molecular biologist.

One thing overlooked about wait time, whether in a Costco gas line or at a Supercharger Station, is what one uses the wait time for. I often listen to audio books while waiting, driving, taking long walks, doing chores (so long as they aren't noisy, as with a chainsaw) and so forth. In my view the wait time isn't really "wasted". YMMV.

SanDisk Clip Sport + Audible.com = enjoying wait time... IMHO
 
With the opening of Lincoln (1/5) and Grand Island, NE (1/6), I-80/76 is (finally) initially complete from Cleveland to Denver. Still remaining to finish I-80, 4 SCs for Wyoming (Evanston/Rocksprings/Rawlins/Laramie) plus one more in western NE (Sidney or Kimball), and two in Pennsylvania.
 
It's been reported on TMC (https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/posts/1908042/) that the Barstow, CA site has added four more Superchargers, for a total of twelve. Currently, the additional Superchargers are "temporary" units, but it's expected they'll be replaced with permanent units at some point. This is a much-needed expansion for the LA<-->Vegas corridor!
 
Specifics, and prices are out now.

https://www.tesla.com/support/supercharging

Decent prices, but enough of a cost to dissuade locals from clogging up supercharger stations.
 
Zythryn said:
Specifics, and prices are out now.

https://www.tesla.com/support/supercharging

Decent prices, but enough of a cost to dissuade locals from clogging up supercharger stations.
Indeed re: prices. 20 cents/kWh for California is not bad. It's cheaper for DC FCing than ripoff EVgo w/o a monthly fee ($4.95 to start + 20 cents/minute) and Blink for DC FCing (59 cents/kWh for members here).

Heck, even Blink L2 is 49 cents/kwh. Hope this causes the above providers to be more price competitive.

And, even then, for some folks in high tiers of expensive utilities like PG&E, 20 cents/kWh is cheaper than the marginal cost to charge at home. Non-TOU plan of E1 (https://www.pge.com/tariffs/tm2/pdf/ELEC_SCHEDS_E-1.pdf) is 40 cents/kWh in tier 3. Many/most households w/an EV driven more than a short distance w/o PV will hit tier 3.
 
cwerdna said:
...

And, even then, for some folks in high tiers of expensive utilities like PG&E, 20 cents/kWh is cheaper than the marginal cost to charge at home. Non-TOU plan of E1 (https://www.pge.com/tariffs/tm2/pdf/ELEC_SCHEDS_E-1.pdf) is 40 cents/kWh in tier 3. Many/most households w/an EV driven more than a short distance w/o PV will hit tier 3.

Wouldn't most households with an EV be enrolled in the EV TOU program?
 
sendler2112 said:
My provider in Syracuse NY actually ends up charging more for TOU electricity until you consume at an industrial scale. Makes no sense.

I think their reasoning is that it costs them more to install/monitor your time of use rather than a straight meter. We have a lot of hydro and nuclear here, so our electricity rates are relatively low to begin with.
 
cwerdna said:
Indeed re: prices. 20 cents/kWh for California is not bad. It's cheaper for DC FCing than ripoff EVgo w/o a monthly fee ($4.95 to start + 20 cents/minute) and Blink for DC FCing (59 cents/kWh for members here).

Heck, even Blink L2 is 49 cents/kwh. Hope this causes the above providers to be more price competitive.
I don't think that Tesla's pricing will have much impact on Blink and other EV charging companies. Tesla isn't pricing to make a profit on DCFC but the other companies must do so. And Tesla isn't really competing directly with Blink and the others since EVs other than Teslas can't use Superchargers. It is true that Teslas won't likely use a Blink DCFC station if there is a Supercharger Station nearby, but the Bolt and other DCFC capable EVs may not have any other options if they want a fast charge.
And, even then, for some folks in high tiers of expensive utilities like PG&E, 20 cents/kWh is cheaper than the marginal cost to charge at home. Non-TOU plan of E1 (https://www.pge.com/tariffs/tm2/pdf/ELEC_SCHEDS_E-1.pdf) is 40 cents/kWh in tier 3. Many/most households w/an EV driven more than a short distance w/o PV will hit tier 3.
Even in this scenario there is the time and convenience factor. Some people were willing to use Supercharger Stations when they were free of cost. Will they be as willing to spend the time and trouble to do so to save 20¢/kWh? Some perhaps, but others may go for the convenience of home charging, assuming they have that option. And I presume that most EV owners will choose a better rate plan if practical for their household usage pattern. Regardless, the incentive to camp out at Supercharger Stations is considerably reduced for cars on the new Tesla Supercharging rate plan, especially with the 40¢/minute idle fee.

Tesla chose 400 kWh free per year because that would cover most owners' limited road trip needs. I find that interesting because I did 9000 miles of road trips in my first nine months! But I didn't get my car for urban commuting; I got it, in large part, for road trips.
 
dgpcolorado said:
Tesla chose 400 kWh free per year because that would cover most owners' limited road trip needs. I find that interesting because I did 9000 miles of road trips in my first nine months! But I didn't get my car for urban commuting; I got it, in large part, for road trips.

I have a short commute, but I'm a bit of a weekend warrior. I do roughly 10k miles/year of road tripping per year.

Hmm.. if a Tesla gets 3 miles/kWh, that's 3,333kWh per year. That's well over the 400kWh Tesla is giving owners.

Of course, that assume all of that road trip uses the Supercharger network. In reality, the first charge of every weekend are from charging at home. So that's 60kWh / week or 3120 kWh/year.

So even with my 10k miles/year enabled by the superchargers, I'd only actually use it for about 200kWh, or half of my allowance.

Seems like Tesla did their homework, and is being very generous to boot.
 
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