2013 Leaf bar loss.

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Perhaps not...

https://transportevolved.com/2015/09/11/confirmed-30-kwh-nissan-leaf-battery-packs-incompatible-with-older-nissan-leafs/
 
alozzy said:
Perhaps not...

https://transportevolved.com/2015/09/11/confirmed-30-kwh-nissan-leaf-battery-packs-incompatible-with-older-nissan-leafs/

From the article: "We should reiterate at this point that what we’ve just said is our own theory"

Once Nissan runs out of refurbished 24kwh packs for warranty repairs, I wonder if they'll be forced to make the 30kwh work with the 2013-2015 leafs (the 2011-2012 will probably be out of warranty by that time)?
 
The EV speculation game has been going on for over 100 years ever since it was the first type of car to do over 100kph/mile-per-minute.

Will Nissan step up to the plate? Will an aftermarket company do it? Will battery technology advance to the point you can upgrade to over double the capacity for a lot less the price?

I'm sure that if someone really wanted a 30kW Leaf for cheap they'd find a wrecked one for a few grand and transfer over all the necessary parts to their 24kWh Leaf.
 
Oils4AsphaultOnly said:
alozzy said:
Perhaps not...

https://transportevolved.com/2015/09/11/confirmed-30-kwh-nissan-leaf-battery-packs-incompatible-with-older-nissan-leafs/

From the article: "We should reiterate at this point that what we’ve just said is our own theory"

Once Nissan runs out of refurbished 24kwh packs for warranty repairs, I wonder if they'll be forced to make the 30kwh work with the 2013-2015 leafs (the 2011-2012 will probably be out of warranty by that time)?
My guess is they will celll/module replace to bring specs above 8 bars.
 
alozzy said:
Perhaps not...

https://transportevolved.com/2015/09/11/confirmed-30-kwh-nissan-leaf-battery-packs-incompatible-with-older-nissan-leafs/

I posted this in another thread:

This doesn't make sense to me. They state that the 24kwh and 30kwh batteries are physically the same dimensions and fit in the same shape hole in the chassis, ok so the 30kwh will "bolt in" to an early car question answered.

They state that the reason it cannot actually be used with the 24kwh Leaf is because the BMS will have to be different. Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't the BMS inside the sealed battery module with the cells and an independent system from the rest of the car?

And if it's not then shouldn't that just be a matter of also changing out the BMS? Of course Nissan does not want to be bound to spend any more money on warranty replacements than needed, so I would not expect them to state the batteries are interchangeable publicly. I also know Nissan is not stupid and they would not completely re-design the Leaf for a mid-gen battery upgrade so the changes must be modular and most likely minor. For instance when you swap engines in a car you usually also swap the ECU. Maybe you will also need to change the motor controller or something else but it's almost certainly not "impossible."

The software unlock is most likely the biggest hurdle to the whole thing and that is just a matter of time until it's either in the public domain or licensed to a 3rd party/done as a service.

None of us will know until an independent Leaf specialist gets ahold of the first wrecked 30kwh Leaf, which probably won't be long!

ElectricEddy said:
My guess is they will celll/module replace to bring specs above 8 bars.
That seems like the most labor-intensive route Nissan can take. Instead, they could remove the intact battery pack from the car and send it to the factory to be mass-recycled with other batteries and then take a new pack off the assembly line and ship it to the dealer to bolt in. What you're saying would require special training at every dealership, training auto mechanics to work on high voltage lithium batteries and electronics, troubleshoot problem cells, and then reassemble and re-seal the pack as good as factory new. That would be like Nissan machining and rebuilding an engine in a Titan pickup truck instead of getting a crate motor from the factory.
 
VitaminJ said:
ElectricEddy said:
My guess is they will celll/module replace to bring specs above 8 bars.
That seems like the most labor-intensive route Nissan can take. Instead, they could remove the intact battery pack from the car and send it to the factory to be mass-recycled with other batteries and then take a new pack off the assembly line and ship it to the dealer to bolt in. What you're saying would require special training at every dealership, training auto mechanics to work on high voltage lithium batteries and electronics, troubleshoot problem cells, and then reassemble and re-seal the pack as good as factory new. That would be like Nissan machining and rebuilding an engine in a Titan pickup truck instead of getting a crate motor from the factory.

I think ElectricEddy meant that Nissan can keep the supply of refurbished 24kwh up by "repairing" the bad batteries they get back as part of the core-exchange. So then it's simply a question of how long that supply will last?
 
I'm under the impression that Leaf battery cells tend to "wear out" or degrade consistently throughout the whole pack. I'd find it hard to believe that there'd be traction batteries with 12 bar cells and 8 bar cells in the same battery. As far as I understand the whole battery is a wear item. When one cell is at 8 bars, so to speak, the others aren't far behind in degradation. It's not like a motor or engine that you can replace the bearings and couple other wear items and get it refurbished like new.

Ya, it would be cool if you could take two bad batteries, pick out all the good cells or modules and make one good battery out of the two. But I don't see it happening.
 
IssacZachary said:
I'm under the impression that Leaf battery cells tend to "wear out" or degrade consistently throughout the whole pack. I'd find it hard to believe that there'd be traction batteries with 12 bar cells and 8 bar cells in the same battery. As far as I understand the whole battery is a wear item. When one cell is at 8 bars, so to speak, the others aren't far behind in degradation. It's not like a motor or engine that you can replace the bearings and couple other wear items and get it refurbished like new.

Yes and no. Do not forget they are only obligated to bring the battery to 9 bars per the warranty terms. Battery capacity is determined by the weakest module as there is no active balancing in the Leaf. The weakest modules tend to be in the middle of the big/long assembly that goes under the back seat. The battery that just dipped below 9 bars likely has half of its modules good for 9 or maybe even 10 bars. This is likely one of the reasons why they chose 9 bars and not 10 for the refurb battery promise under capacity warranty as they could easily make a 9-bar battery from 2 8-bar ones.

But they also offer new batteries for purchase, so if they stop making 24kWh ones they'd have to make sure the 30kWh ones can be fitted in old cars. On the other hand, there is only a handful of people who buy batteries out of pocket, so they can just say sorry, you're SOL, the battery is no longer available for your car.
 
Let me get this straight. If the battery goes 8 bars during the warranty period Nissan can slip a 9 bar "rebuilt" battery in the car.

Does that mean that the $6,000 battery is "refurbished" too or is it new (12 bars)?
 
IssacZachary said:
Let me get this straight. If the battery goes 8 bars during the warranty period Nissan can slip a 9 bar "rebuilt" battery in the car.
Yes, however the '11 and '12 guys due to the amended Klee settlement end up receiving a new battery: http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?t=18905.

For those outside beyond model year '12, IIRC, Nissan does NOT have to provide a new battery as a free warranty replacement. IIRC, Andy Palmer did state that spirit of it was that they only intend to replace the battery once so they wouldn't just put in a 9 bar battery, since it could fall below 9 bars again before capacity warranty expiration.

From the '13 warranty booklet PDF I have w/minor edits for hyphenation:
LITHIUM-ION BATTERY CAPACITY COVERAGE
In addition to the Lithium-Ion Battery Coverage for defects in materials or workmanship, the Lithium- Ion battery is also warranted against capacity loss below nine bars of capacity as shown on the vehicle’s battery capacity level gauge for a period of 60 months or 60,000 miles, whichever comes first.
This warranty covers any repairs needed to return battery capacity to a level of nine remaining bars on the vehicle’s battery capacity level gauge. If possible, the Lithium-Ion battery components will be repaired or replaced, and the original Lithium- Ion battery will be returned to the vehicle. If necessary, the Lithium-Ion battery will be replaced with either a new or remanufactured Lithium-Ion battery. Any repair or replacement made under this Lithium-Ion Battery Capacity Coverage may not return your Lithium-Ion battery to an “as new” condition with all 12 battery capacity bars, but it will provide the vehicle with a capacity level of nine bars or more on the battery capacity level gauge.
So far, it seems like everyone (most everyone?) has been receiving new batteries. That could change for '13+ Leafs.
IssacZachary said:
Does that mean that the $6,000 battery is "refurbished" too or is it new (12 bars)?
I believe the $5,499 battery is new: http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?t=17168
 
I have a 2013 (build date 4/2013) and have 46K miles. I think at some future date the 30KW pack will be made avail. We know the pack fits, it is a matter of a simple software upgrade. Tesla has already set precedent in this matter by producing an upgraded pack for a car that it stopped producing a few years earlier, the Tesla Roadster. Just give it a little time to make business sense for NIssan. Packs will have to get cheaper tho. I have a hard time believing that people are going to want to spend $6k for a battery for a car worth half that very soon.

Here in San Diego on Craigslist...OMG you should see the amount of Nissan Leafs for sale! Gotta be more than any other car!
 
IssacZachary said:
Let me get this straight. If the battery goes 8 bars during the warranty period Nissan can slip a 9 bar "rebuilt" battery in the car.

Does that mean that the $6,000 battery is "refurbished" too or is it new (12 bars)?

The battery you pay for out of pocket is brand spanking new with 12 bars and it should come with new warranty (not 100% on that), the ones warranty replacements can be as low as 9 bar and the warranty on these is the left-over from the original factory warranty. However so far Nissan used new packs for warranty replacements, but it doesn't mean they will continue to do so in the future.
 
IssacZachary said:
Let me get this straight. If the battery goes 8 bars during the warranty period Nissan can slip a 9 bar "rebuilt" battery in the car.

Does that mean that the $6,000 battery is "refurbished" too or is it new (12 bars)?

why has it become the norm to assume the worst?
 
DaveinOlyWA said:
IssacZachary said:
Let me get this straight. If the battery goes 8 bars during the warranty period Nissan can slip a 9 bar "rebuilt" battery in the car.

Does that mean that the $6,000 battery is "refurbished" too or is it new (12 bars)?

why has it become the norm to assume the worst?

It was just a question. It's important to know the facts so as to make good decisions. I wouldn't want to pay $6,000 for a 9 bar battery, would you? They're are plenty of people that assume the best too; people who think that in a couple years you'll be able to get a direct fit 48kWh battery that weighs the same as the current 24kWh battery from your local parts store for only $1,000 or who think that in a couple years there'll be a CHAdeMO station at every gasoline station.

Let's hope for the best and prepare for the worst.
 
IssacZachary said:
DaveinOlyWA said:
IssacZachary said:
Let me get this straight. If the battery goes 8 bars during the warranty period Nissan can slip a 9 bar "rebuilt" battery in the car.

Does that mean that the $6,000 battery is "refurbished" too or is it new (12 bars)?

why has it become the norm to assume the worst?

It was just a question. It's important to know the facts so as to make good decisions. I wouldn't want to pay $6,000 for a 9 bar battery, would you? They're are plenty of people that assume the best too; people who think that in a couple years you'll be able to get a direct fit 48kWh battery that weighs the same as the current 24kWh battery from your local parts store for only $1,000 or who think that in a couple years there'll be a CHAdeMO station at every gasoline station.

Let's hope for the best and prepare for the worst.

"fact?"

you have got to be kidding me! what facts were involved in your statement? how many battery replacements have happened that did not include a brand new battery?
 
I was asking a question. Questions are for finding facts. Someone earlier said that Nissan can put a 9 bar battery in a car for a warranty replacement. I never said they have not did he. I was asking a question.

If Nissan can and potentially will make refurbished batteries that will have less than new capacity if you or I buy a $6,000 battery from them is it going to be new or refurbished?

That's all I want to know. I'm not making any sort of statement. I'm not a propagandist. I'm an inquierer.
 
IssacZachary said:
I was asking a question. Questions are for finding facts. Someone earlier said that Nissan can put a 9 bar battery in a car for a warranty replacement. I never said they have not did he. I was asking a question.

If Nissan can and potentially will make refurbished batteries that will have less than new capacity if you or I buy a $6,000 battery from them is it going to be new or refurbished?

That's all I want to know. I'm not making any sort of statement. I'm not a propagandist. I'm an inquierer.

gotcha... and all questions are supposed to be good, right?

but in all things, there is a limit to goodness.
 
I just purchased a 2013 Leaf SL, built 8/13 with 39K miles with 12 bars. The car was sold new and leased in the Colorado Mountains so I assume it was cool most of the time. Now in Denver so let's see how it holds up with our summers.
 
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