After Market High Capacity Battery

My Nissan Leaf Forum

Help Support My Nissan Leaf Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.
gshepherd said:
Insurability is another concern. The auto insurance industry hasn't yet figured out that battery capacity is a major portion of an EV's value. Instead, they seem to be treating it like an engine. If you replace the battery, in the adjuster's eyes, all you've done is repaired the vehicle back to its normal function, much like replacing an engine.

I think EV's are a lot more like small airplanes. In something like the ever-popular Cessna 172 (station wagon of the sky), valuation of a 40 year old airplane is largely one of how many hours are left on the engine before manufacturer-recommended overhaul. As you get closer and closer to that time, your value plummets. Spend some kilobucks for an overhaul, and your value pops up considerably. Insurance takes this into consideration. The first question anyone shopping for a small plane asks a seller is how many hours on the engine. The insurance company wants to know this as well and sends me a yearly questionnaire.

The first question we advise prospective used LEAF buyers to ask or find out is how many capacity bars left on the battery, and if LEAFspy, how many Ah.

Interesting analogy. Although the first thing that comes to mind is: EV battery quits during operation = dead vehicle, airplane engine quits during operation = dead pilot.
 
GetOffYourGas said:
Interesting analogy. Although the first thing that comes to mind is: EV battery quits during operation = dead vehicle, airplane engine quits during operation = dead pilot.

No, not dead yet. Fortunately that's a common misconception, otherwise I wouldn't be flying. :D While quite rare, the majority of engine failures that do happen, even in single engine aircraft, result in gliding safely to the ground to the nearest airport, open field, or the Hudson River. We receive a lot of training and practice on gliding to a safe landing. One has several minutes to deal with an engine failure and chose a place to land.

Be that as it may, you are correct in that it's still an order of magnitude less drama in a car (not that people haven't died due to catastrophic mechanical, or now, software, failures in their cars). If conditions allow, you coast over to the shoulder.

What my analogy was trying to connect was the cost / value / depreciation equation... overhauling a piston airplane engine is expensive ($8-20k) and inevitable (typically every 1200 - 2000 hours and sometimes 6 years, depending on manufacturer specs, which are conservative by design - not like the engine gets up an quits at hour 2001). As that major overhaul date gets closer, the market value of the airplane steadily declines due to that ominous overhaul bill. Any prospective buyer of an airplane nearing overhaul time will need to take that cost into account. Likewise, insurance companies base their comprehensive "hull coverage" partly based on hours since major overhaul since it directly affects fair market value.

Assuming battery degradation will still be an issue into the future, we'll probably need something like an battery capacity/health meter that can't be tampered with so buyers of used EVs (including insurance companies) can make a fair assessment of what the vehicle is really worth. A new battery should increase the value significantly, especially so on a clean vehicle with low miles. Hmm, maybe it will all be a moot point if battery degradation is solved enough that other aspects of the vehicle wear out faster.
 
I think overall larger batteries will help. If the Leaf had three times the range (double for 30 kWh battery) then losing even 30% of capacity would be less dire. That combined with greater battery refurbishment options (replace only worst cells for example), and overall cheaper battery costs will hopefully make this better in a few years.
 
"High Capacity Battery" replacement in the G1 LEAFs will not be offered at a resonable price.

Even though a lot of LEAFs G1 were sold in the US, the rest of the world have quite strickt rules for weight and chemestry. So either a 3.rd party "High Capacity Battery" provider must use the same weight and chemestry, or just provide it to US-buyers.

It is impossible to "just replace" the battery pack since this will affect several systems such as charging, GOM, etc. Such a provider must also hack the LEAFs programming in several computers, and this is not possible unless it is total reprogramming of the car. This can not be done over the internett....

Even though the price per Kwh is declining it is not possible to even get a 30 kwh battery in a 24 kwh battery car with a profit. The G1 LEAF is still a G1, and with a lower value than a G2.

IF it was possible to install a 30 Kwh battery in a 2011 LEAF what would the value be? $10 000? $12 500? And IF it was possible to get the 30 KwH battery at the same price as the 24 kWh battery it is still $ 5500. And you can get a 24 Kwh leaf for less than $ 10 000. The numbers just do not add up.

The price per kWh in batteries are going down, but now fast enough for the LEAF. Even with a price of $ 100 per kWh and reducuction of weight it is simply not possible to get a battery replacement that will increase the value of the car. Let us say that the price is $ 100 per kWh, and the weight is redused so that the total weight is the same. A Bolt EV is 60 kWh, so a LEAF battery would cost $ 6000 just in batteries. It makes no sense when you can buy a brand new car for $30 000 or probably a 3 year old vehicle for halv price.
 
Yes but for many of us this isn't about the value of the Leaf in terms of $$, it's the usability of the Leaf. My lease is up this year and I'm trying to decide whether to buy out my 2015. Because of the depreciation I can get it for a song, but with only 24 kWh and having lost ~ 5% capacity, should I? If there were a path to upgrade to a 30 kWh battery (or perhaps larger) at a later date that would make me feel better about buying the Leaf now. That way, 5 or so years from now when my battery has degraded 20% or so, I could spend $5k (hopefullly less by then) to put in a new 30 kWh battery and the car would actually have more range than it did when it was brand new.

The Leaf is a great car, I just don't want to get to a point where the range is so low it becomes unusable.
 
TorC said:
"High Capacity Battery" replacement in the G1 LEAFs will not be offered at a resonable price.

Even though a lot of LEAFs G1 were sold in the US, the rest of the world have quite strickt rules for weight and chemestry. So either a 3.rd party "High Capacity Battery" provider must use the same weight and chemestry, or just provide it to US-buyers.

It is impossible to "just replace" the battery pack since this will affect several systems such as charging, GOM, etc. Such a provider must also hack the LEAFs programming in several computers, and this is not possible unless it is total reprogramming of the car. This can not be done over the internett....

Even though the price per Kwh is declining it is not possible to even get a 30 kwh battery in a 24 kwh battery car with a profit. The G1 LEAF is still a G1, and with a lower value than a G2.

IF it was possible to install a 30 Kwh battery in a 2011 LEAF what would the value be? $10 000? $12 500? And IF it was possible to get the 30 KwH battery at the same price as the 24 kWh battery it is still $ 5500. And you can get a 24 Kwh leaf for less than $ 10 000. The numbers just do not add up.

The price per kWh in batteries are going down, but now fast enough for the LEAF. Even with a price of $ 100 per kWh and reducuction of weight it is simply not possible to get a battery replacement that will increase the value of the car. Let us say that the price is $ 100 per kWh, and the weight is redused so that the total weight is the same. A Bolt EV is 60 kWh, so a LEAF battery would cost $ 6000 just in batteries. It makes no sense when you can buy a brand new car for $30 000 or probably a 3 year old vehicle for halv price.
There are people replacing their 24 kwh battery with a new 24 kwh battery for $6500, why wouldn't they pay less for a battery more than twice the capacity? You are not making a whole lot of sense. $6k is a lot less than $30k+ for a new car. Especially if the Leaf is functional, and fits one's needs, and keeping in mind it requires little maintenance. I won't be buying a brand new car anytime soon (probably never), and I am not the only one. A replacement 60kwh battery for the current Leaf, for $8-10k out the door, would be VERY tempting to me in 3-5 years.
 
My supposition that larger batteries or more battery replacement options will become available is based off the premise that EV adoption continues to grow. In that case there will be more demand for battery replacement/refurbishment in general. Presumably working on the Leaf's pack won't that much different than any other pack. In which case at least s couple people will probably figure out how to do it, and provide the service. Right now that's obviously not the case.
 
Firetruck41 said:
There are people replacing their 24 kwh battery with a new 24 kwh battery for $6500, why wouldn't they pay less for a battery more than twice the capacity? You are not making a whole lot of sense. $6k is a lot less than $30k+ for a new car. Especially if the Leaf is functional, and fits one's needs, and keeping in mind it requires little maintenance. I won't be buying a brand new car anytime soon (probably never), and I am not the only one. A replacement 60kwh battery for the current Leaf, for $8-10k out the door, would be VERY tempting to me in 3-5 years.

Very-very few have paid $6500 for a 24 kWh battery replacement. And even if there were a lot of people willing to pay this there are quite a few issues: weight and value.

Lets say that someone actually will able to make a 60 kWh battery replacement for the LEAF, and it does not add to much weight. And the cost is only $8-10K within 3-5 years. WIthin that time your LEAF is 3-5 years older than today, and the value is considerable lower. At the same time Bolt-Ev have been on the marked for 3-5 years. Lets say you have a 2013 LEAF with a 24 kWh battery. In 2022 this LEAF is almost 10 years old, and the oldest Bolts 5 years. What do you think a 5 year old Bolt would be worth? I think $15 K is too much. How much do you think a 2013 LEAF with a 60 kWh would be worth?

Of course there will be a few people willing to pay $8-10K, but the investment needed to make such battery packs are extremely high. I just do not think anyone will can make money on it. But please prove me wrong...
 
If we can get those who have successfully added capacity in the trunk to the Leaf, that's a possible option to extend range to help make up for lost range on the original battery. A 3kWh Tesla battery module can be had for $650. For 24kWh that would be $5,200. However I expect the prices to drop to the sub $200/kWh level in the next year on the aftermarket scene such as this. I was thinking a 3kWh 24v pack along with a 240v inverter & L2 EVSE would net me 10 miles of "reserve" to tap into if need be. Total cost would be $1200 for the batteries, inverter and EVSE. It could be cheaper if I had a DC to DC converter that could just dump into the battery pack directly when needed.
 
TorC said:
Lets say that someone actually will able to make a 60 kWh battery replacement for the LEAF, and it does not add to much weight. And the cost is only $8-10K within 3-5 years.

If I could get that battery to provide emergency off-grid power AND recharge with solar, I'd be happy to pay the $.15/watt, drive it into my solar system, hook it up and use it!!! If an APP could learn my driving habits and use the battery for both transport AND energy shifting to off-peak, so much the better.

Maybe-Someday??

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kxryv2XrnqM
 
Marktm said:
Maybe-Someday??

Yeah. "Maybe-Someday".

The problem is that the battery (the vehicle) is not at home when the solar panels have their peak production. Most people have 2 peaks in their 24h cycle. They shower and make breakfast in the morning and they get home from work and will have their supper. Both peaks will be before/after peak production,

Based on the technology available today every kWh in/out of batteries will cost more than the rates today saved if you buy "low" and sell "high".

The "smartgrid" may help a bit so that you will charge when the price is low, but it is hard to belive that it will "balance" the grid unless we have some major changes in grid tariffs.
 
TorC said:
[
The problem is that the battery (the vehicle) is not at home when the solar panels have their peak production. Most people have 2 peaks in their 24h cycle. They shower and make breakfast in the morning and they get home from work and will have their supper. Both peaks will be before/after peak production,

Based on the technology available today every kWh in/out of batteries will cost more than the rates today saved if you buy "low" and sell "high".

The "smartgrid" may help a bit so that you will charge when the price is low, but it is hard to belive that it will "balance" the grid unless we have some major changes in grid tariffs.

Being retired in a rural environment, it makes more sense for me. I can plan "transportation" use at my own discretion - go to town late in the afternoon. I would pay the (small) price to be grid independent in my current situation if battery costs go to such low levels (which I doubt, actually).

Agreed I'm likely in the minority - the "disruption" will be driven by other factors. Frankly, I'm too old to worry too much about the "carbon tax" issue (climate change) and it's affect on the eventual "disruption" - that's for my Grandkid's generation. My guess is that hydrocarbon fuel costs will NOT be the driver for "disruption" anytime soon - just too cheap and too much supply for too much time - and we keep finding more!
 
TorC said:
Very-very few have paid $6500 for a 24 kWh battery replacement. And even if there were a lot of people willing to pay this there are quite a few issues: weight and value.

Lets say that someone actually will able to make a 60 kWh battery replacement for the LEAF, and it does not add to much weight. And the cost is only $8-10K within 3-5 years. WIthin that time your LEAF is 3-5 years older than today, and the value is considerable lower. At the same time Bolt-Ev have been on the marked for 3-5 years. Lets say you have a 2013 LEAF with a 24 kWh battery. In 2022 this LEAF is almost 10 years old, and the oldest Bolts 5 years. What do you think a 5 year old Bolt would be worth? I think $15 K is too much. How much do you think a 2013 LEAF with a 60 kWh would be worth?

Of course there will be a few people willing to pay $8-10K, but the investment needed to make such battery packs are extremely high. I just do not think anyone will can make money on it. But please prove me wrong...
$6500 for a dealership to install an entirely new battery, frankly that's a bargain. A comparable replacement on an ICE car would be a transmission or engine needing replacement. To get a brand new engine or transmission from a dealership and have that same dealer then install it? That would be close to $10k for something like a Honda Accord. Nissan is likely taking a hit, not making a profit and maybe even making a loss on it, but it still shows how much cheaper an EV can be. Right now Tesla claims their 18650 packs cost "less than $190 per kwh," and they are planning on cutting that price to $100/kwh by 2020. Considering a car like the Leaf has practically 0 maintenance and extremely low cost of ownership, sub-$5000 batteries installed by an independent shop could be possible by 2020. If you count salvaged packs from wrecked cars, you could get a replacement pack with 50k to 100k miles of life left installed for far less. Like I said before cars are the #1 most recycled consumer product, why would being EV change that? In my mind it will just make them far more recyclable! No oil leaks, no toxic fluids, no wear items like spark plugs, timing belts, etc. As someone who just pulled an engine out of their 21-year-old ICE car this evening; that makes me excited.


And anyone who is installing solar without a battery bank in their house is missing the entire point in my opinion. If you have a battery bank, the average house can be nearly 100% self sufficient off of rooftop PV solar year-round.
 
I agree that we should not become a throw-away society, even with EVs. Those who say it is not worth it to replace a battery on a Leaf are very short-sighted and may be more interested in having the latest and greatest....

If you have a Leaf with a bad battery, what is the resale value? Really Low. If I spent $35k on a car, I am not going to accept that my car is worthless because I needs a battery. If a $4-5000 investment (like the other poster mentioned -like an engine or transmission) can keep my car running for another 50-100K miles, it is a bargain.

Then, I may ALSO buy another used EV, but I will not take a hit on my valuable (to me) car's resale value....
 
powersurge said:
I agree that we should not become a throw-away society, even with EVs. Those who say it is not worth it to replace a battery on a Leaf are very short-sighted and may be more interested in having the latest and greatest....

If you have a Leaf with a bad battery, what is the resale value? Really Low. If I spent $35k on a car, I am not going to accept that my car is worthless because I needs a battery. If a $4-5000 investment (like the other poster mentioned -like an engine or transmission) can keep my car running for another 50-100K miles, it is a bargain.

Then, I may ALSO buy another used EV, but I will not take a hit on my valuable (to me) car's resale value....


You may have misunderstood my claims. And I do not like the throw-away society we have. However it does not change reality. A 10 year old LEAF is less worth than a new one. If you need more range it will be better value to change the car than to upgrade the battery.

And there is a big difference in repairing a vehicle and upgrade it. The engine/transmission analogy is not valid. This is repairs, not upgrades. A vehicle with a broken engine is worth the scrap value. If a similar vehicle is worth $ 5000, then it makes economical sense to spend up to that value in repairs. If the engine analogy were to be valid you would have to do an upgrade. Who in their right mind would replace a working 100 engine with a brand new 150 hp engine if the marked value of a similar car with worth less than the cost of the upgrade?

If your battery is bad however it might be economical to repair it, but not upgrade it. You will probably be able to get a good battery from a scrapyard for less than $1000 within a few years. Swapping it takes less than an hour. Repairing a 5-10 year old LEAF for $1000 will probably be good economy. Repairing it for $ 6500 or upgrading it for $ 8000 is probably not. And it is probably going to be so expensive that no company will even offer an upgrade. On the LEAF it is impossible to just "pop in" a larger battery pack. Several systems must be reprogrammed. The R&D cost will be extremely high. If you have bought a LEAF and were told new battery packs will be compatible with old LEAFs your were lied to. The Renault ZOE however is, and will be backward compatible. The new 41 kWh battery can fairly easy be put in the first R210. (I am told that the new ZOE will be sold as Nissan Micra EV in the US). Renault is also a lot more interested in 3.rd party upgrades and "add-ons". Just have a look on the EP-tender.
 
Back
Top