LTLFTcomposite
Well-known member
Musk is meeting with Trump again today. Maybe he can set him straight.
Trumpists begin their attack on America's EV policies.
- Thread starter edatoakrun
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VitaminJ
Well-known member
rmay635703 said:
This is a VW dieselgate storage yard in Colorado:
That is millions and millions of dollars' of inventory, and there are several other storage yards like this round the country just with VW and Audis. They only have another year or two of storage before they will start to cost a lot more money to get back on the road. There was talk that VW and the EPA were working out a way to modify the cars and return them to the road, or to arrange a deal with another country to accept them. I suspect under Trump the EPA will relax it's expectations and allow the cars to be sold again with little (maybe no) modifications.
powersurge
Well-known member
I think that many are mistakenly equating that if Trump (I will call it the government), may relax some requirements for coal-based electrical production, the proliferation of electric cars will be negatively affected. Yes, while increased coal may be polluting, the presence of the EV is REALLY NOT TRYING TO STOP GLOBAL WARMING...
We are naïve to think that we are saving the environment with our Leafs... Do you think that even 1/2 million EVs on the road is going to stop polar ice from thawing?? NO. The true enemy of the environment are the developing third world countries that are becoming more affluent, like China, India, Korea, and many other small countries. Their population is wanting a piece of the American Pie - - Every driveway has a car. PLUS there are no environmental laws in these countries. So for every Leaf we buy, there are 100 new cars that are being driven in these countries.
In my opinion if the government increases coal use, we will have more jobs, rely less on foreign oil, and make more electricity within our country to charge our EV cars. After all, I have a Leaf NOT for the environment, but for: a) saving my driving dollars, and 2) Reduce the use of depleting oil supplies of our country and our planet. When the oil runs out, we will be back to horses and steam locomotives using.... COAL..
We are naïve to think that we are saving the environment with our Leafs... Do you think that even 1/2 million EVs on the road is going to stop polar ice from thawing?? NO. The true enemy of the environment are the developing third world countries that are becoming more affluent, like China, India, Korea, and many other small countries. Their population is wanting a piece of the American Pie - - Every driveway has a car. PLUS there are no environmental laws in these countries. So for every Leaf we buy, there are 100 new cars that are being driven in these countries.
In my opinion if the government increases coal use, we will have more jobs, rely less on foreign oil, and make more electricity within our country to charge our EV cars. After all, I have a Leaf NOT for the environment, but for: a) saving my driving dollars, and 2) Reduce the use of depleting oil supplies of our country and our planet. When the oil runs out, we will be back to horses and steam locomotives using.... COAL..
webeleafowners
Well-known member
powersurge said:
I had no idea the US was using oil in electrical generating plants. I know in Canada with the exception of a few northern isolated communities we produce pretty much zero power with oil. For the most part 80 percent of our power comes from hydro or nuclear. In some provinces that is closer to 100 percent by hydro. I was under the impression that about a third of US power comes from coal. What states produce power from oil. Maybe Hawaii??? Curious.
webeleafowners
Well-known member
downeykp said:
Yah islands can be tricky for power. However I bet within a decade it will be mostly solar with some sort of storage for night time coverage.
dgpcolorado
Well-known member
Like this?webeleafowners said:
Tesla’s newest solar project coming to Kauai
That's 52 MWh of storage and 13 MW of PV.
The Colorado $6000 tax credit on used EVs ended on December 31st. The current $5000 EV rebate is only for new EVs.GetOffYourGas said:
Powersurge is making the argument that just - by coincidence, of course! - requires him to do nothing he does not wish to do. Nice work, if you can get it. He is correct about oil in power plants, but Canadian fuel oil is still a bit better than coal - Alberta tar sands oil excepted. We can all be nihilistic and re-embrace fossil fuels, but that guarantees that things will get worse, fast.
Coal jobs are not coming back: they were lost more to automation than to market forces.
Coal jobs are not coming back: they were lost more to automation than to market forces.
Except for Hawaii and remote locations in Alaska, I doubt there is much oil-fired generation still in use in the USA for base load (perhaps some old units still kept available for peak needs). Natural gas (NG) is taking over due to the relatively low price of NG. Coal jobs will not come back unless NG prices raise a lot because it is becoming cheaper for utilities to buy power from independent NG-fired generators than operate and maintain their own coal plants.
Again, the only col jobs that would return would be recently laid off heavy equipment operators. Automation and horrible things like "mountaintop removal" mining have eliminated most of the jobs already.
LTLFTcomposite
Well-known member
Even manufacturers in the environmentally progressive China are lobbying to have mandates relaxed.
http://finance.yahoo.com/news/china-may-roll-back-electric-111726861.html
http://finance.yahoo.com/news/china-may-roll-back-electric-111726861.html
edatoakrun
Well-known member
http://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-trump-autos-idUSKBN16K1L5
Report on attacks on State incentive programs below:
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/03/11/business/energy-environment/electric-cars-hybrid-tax-credits.html
Durandal
Well-known member
powersurge said:
I'm less concerned about whether or not it emits CO2, and just eliminates the use of oil. The grid can be greened after the fact, and it's continually getting greener. I was honestly hoping for the beginnings of peak oil by now to force the hand of the market through increased pricing, which would make electric vehicles more attractive from a financial perspective faster than they are now, but we will get there. As is, even with gasoline at $2/gal, I still save money by driving my Leaf versus driving a gasoline powered car. Assuming my Leaf lives for 6 years, it will pay for itself in fuel savings even if gasoline stays at $2/gal. I suspect we will see it go back up to $3/gal in the near future, reducing the payback window.
I think that over the next 5-10 years the economics of electric vehicles will outweigh gasoline vehicles by a factor large enough to convince greater numbers of people to make the switch, all environmental reasons aside.
That would make the "true enemy of the environment" the US and other Western countries who are setting the global standards for what constitutes affluence. China, BTW, is getting way ahead of us in EV usage.
rmay635703
Well-known member
- Joined
- Jan 19, 2011
- Messages
- 628
LeftieBiker said:
Yep, wasting energy is the enemy of the environment, driving cars at all is the enemy of the environment.
At some point both will become increasingly impossible and we might get motivated enough to do things truly sustainably, which means no tractors, no big chem and less but longer lasting tech.
DanCar
Well-known member
China has always been way ahead in terms of EV usage. Past 10 years, they have millions of electric bicycles, the primary form of transportation in many major cities.LeftieBiker said:
True, although the quality of most of those bicycles is very lacking. I was referring to China pulling ahead of us in the EV automotive market.
edatoakrun
Well-known member
Back on-topic:
http://www.autonews.com/article/20170315/OEM11/170319911/1221
powersurge
Well-known member
LeftieBiker said:
I think that increasing coal production and coal-related jobs will not necessarily hurt the environment. I have a link below of the breakdown of fuel sources used in electricity production... Coal use is 1/3 of our electricity, and Natural Gas is 1/3 = 66%. Natural gas fracking can devastate the environment. So increased coal use will decrease the use of Natural Gas, which is in every naturalist's mind -- Natural Gas is the greater of two evils. Like it or not, until we all go solar, coal will continue to be used for electricity production for the next 50-100 years.
https://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/faq.php?id=427&t=3
And Leftiebiker, don't accuse anyone of not doing things because they are lazy.... I don't see you or anyone in America that will boycott electricity because it is made by coal. You just like to "overpower" (LOL) other people's opinions....
VitaminJ
Well-known member
A man who lives in a place full of concrete and steel mountains can't see the harm in removing actual mountains. According to the American Lung Association, coal is responsible for 12,000 deaths in the US each year due to respiratory issues directly from coal burning. For reference, that's about the same amount of people who die from gun homicide each year in the US.
As you say, fracking is bad for the environment as well. The actual act of fracking the Earth thousands of feet underground is greatly shrouded in misinformation, lies, deception, and trade secrets. But even if we forget about what happens underground and just look at the surface, fracking is horrible. There are spills of fracking fluid, wastewater, diesel fuel, hydraulic fluid every single day at thousands of fracking sites in the US. The same types of "collateral damage" happen in coal mines. The act of burning these fuels is many many times cleaner than actually getting it out of the ground.
Of course the ultimate answer is nuclear energy end of story.
As you say, fracking is bad for the environment as well. The actual act of fracking the Earth thousands of feet underground is greatly shrouded in misinformation, lies, deception, and trade secrets. But even if we forget about what happens underground and just look at the surface, fracking is horrible. There are spills of fracking fluid, wastewater, diesel fuel, hydraulic fluid every single day at thousands of fracking sites in the US. The same types of "collateral damage" happen in coal mines. The act of burning these fuels is many many times cleaner than actually getting it out of the ground.
Of course the ultimate answer is nuclear energy end of story.
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