Capacity Loss on 2011-2012 LEAFs

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TonyWilliams said:
For guys considering buying out leases with bad batteries, I just was quoted:

Brand new LEAF-S, with CHAdeMO quick charge and 6.6kW onboard charger, 30kWh battery for $33,000 minus $17,000 discount, $500 loyalty discount, $0 down, $299 month with California sales tax.

Residual 27% !!!!

Plus a $2500 California rebate check.

The total cost to drive the new car with new, bigger battery is $10,700 - $2500 for three years.
Wait, I'm confused by your math.

33,000 - 17,000 - 500 = 15,500
15,500 - 2,500 = 13,000

Or, are you just talking about a $299/month 3 year lease of 36 * 299 = 10,764, for which you can take the $2,500 CVRP? 3 year lease should actually be 35 payments of $299 but the $10.7K before CVRP is close enough given the $395 disposition fee at lease end.
 
cwerdna said:
TonyWilliams said:
For guys considering buying out leases with bad batteries, I just was quoted:

Brand new LEAF-S, with CHAdeMO quick charge and 6.6kW onboard charger, 30kWh battery for $33,000 minus $17,000 discount, $500 loyalty discount, $0 down, $299 month with California sales tax.

Residual 27% !!!!

Plus a $2500 California rebate check.

The total cost to drive the new car with new, bigger battery is $10,700 - $2500 for three years.
Wait, I'm confused by your math.

33,000 - 17,000 - 500 = 15,500
15,500 - 2,500 = 13,000

Or, are you just talking about a $299/month 3 year lease of 36 * 299 = 10,764, for which you can take the $2,500 CVRP? 3 year lease should actually be 35 payments of $299 but the $10.7K before CVRP is close enough given the $395 disposition fee at lease end.

prob random fees. why isn't loyalty $1000?
 
OK, I finally found the data for my 2011, ended up being down 7 capacity bars, 5 capacity bars remaining when battery was replaced under warranty.
I wish I could have posted it as an image where everything is in nice columns, or figured out how to do that here. Maybe somebody knows and I can edit this.

mod edit: changed to [code and fixed some spacing issues

Code:
Nissan LEAF Capacity Bar Loss 6/2011 5797
12 bars ----------  3/31/2012 ---------- 1000
11 bars ----------  4/ 5/2013 ---------- 12770
10 bars ----------  8/10/2013 ---------- 17978
09 bars ----------  5/23/2014 ---------- 30098
08 bars ----------  3/ 8/2015 ---------- 40594
08 bars ----------  4/24/2015 ---------- 42472 ---------- P3227 Update
08 bars ----------  4/24/2015 ---------- 42472
07 bars ----------  7/16/2015 ---------- 45080
07 bars ---------- 11/20/2015 ---------- 49366 ---------- LeafSpy (Lite) AHr = 37.19, SOH = 56%, Hx = 50.03%
07 bars ----------  2/15/2016 ---------- 52438 ---------- LeafSpy (Lite) AHr = 37.15, SOH = 56%, Hx = 49.98%
07 bars ----------  2/19/2016 ---------- 52572 ---------- LeafSpy (Lite) Ahr = 37.11, SOH = 56%, Hx = 49.88%
06 bars ----------  4/25/2016 ---------- 55076 ---------- LeafSpy (Lite) Ahr = 35.14, SOH = 53%, Hx = 47.87%
05 bars ----------  8/ 5/2016 ---------- 58867 ---------- LeafSpy (Lite) Ahr = 30.70, SOH = 46%, Hx = 43.24%
05 bars ----------  9/29/2016 ---------- 60161 ---------- LeafSpy (Lite) Ahr = 30.47, SOH = 46%, Hx = 43.03%

Code:
12 to 11 bars ----------12 months----------12000 miles
11 to 10 bars ----------04 months---------- 5000 miles
10 to  9 bars ----------09 months----------12000 miles
 9 to  8 bars --------10.5 months ---------10000 miles
 8 to  7 bars-----------04 months ----------4500 miles
 7 to  6 bars ----------09 months ---------10000 miles
 6 to  5 bars ----------03 months ----------4000 miles




Based on this too, I wonder if all capacity bars (except the 12th of course) are created equal. It seems that it almost alternates a big amount for a capacity bar (ex. #10, #9, #7) to a small amount for a capacity bar (ex. #11, #8, #6), somewhat to even it out over two capacity bars. I have always suspected too that the calculations were not the same and there was additional time/capacity before it would drop the 9th bar and trigger the Klee settlement warranty.

I also thought I'd say that I have not entered these into any database, so if somebody knows how to do that they can, and if they need any more information from me I'll try to provide it.

And a thank you to the moderator who fixed this. I would have never known to use "code" to set up a chart.
 
cwerdna said:
TonyWilliams said:
For guys considering buying out leases with bad batteries, I just was quoted:

Brand new LEAF-S, with CHAdeMO quick charge and 6.6kW onboard charger, 30kWh battery for $33,000 minus $17,000 discount, $500 loyalty discount, $0 down, $299 month with California sales tax.

Residual 27% !!!!

Plus a $2500 California rebate check.

The total cost to drive the new car with new, bigger battery is $10,700 - $2500 for three years.
Wait, I'm confused by your math.

33,000 - 17,000 - 500 = 15,500
15,500 - 2,500 = 13,000

Or, are you just talking about a $299/month 3 year lease of 36 * 299 = 10,764, for which you can take the $2,500 CVRP? 3 year lease should actually be 35 payments of $299 but the $10.7K before CVRP is close enough given the $395 disposition fee at lease end.

The actual deal for a 2017 LEAF-S 30kWh with CHAdeMO was:

$33k cap
$14k discounts
$19k net capitalized cost
$9k residual
$10k - cost for 3 yr / 36,000 miles @ $277 monthly with California use tax X 35 remaining payments
$0 down
 
sub3marathonman said:
12 to 11 bars ----------12 months----------12000 miles
11 to 10 bars----------04 months---------5000 miles ---------- 4/5/2013
10 to 9 bars ----------09 months ----------12000 miles --- 13 months
9 to 8 bars ----------10.5 months ----------10000 miles ---------- 5/23/2014
8 to 7 bars----------04 months ----------4500 miles ---- 14.5 months
7 to 6 bars ----------09 months ----------10000 miles ---------- 7/16/2015
6 to 5 bars ----------03 months -------4000 miles --- 12 months

Based on this too, I wonder if all capacity bars (except the 12th of course) are created equal. It seems that it almost alternates a big amount for a capacity bar (ex. #10, #9, #7) to a small amount for a capacity bar (ex. #11, #8, #6), somewhat to even it out over two capacity bars.

I added the total for two bars. Notice that you dropped about two bars a year. One longer period over winter, one shorter including summer. I suspect the pattern we see here is seasonality, not different sized capacity bars.. Very little capacity is lost in winter, more is lost in summer, especially in hot places.
 
WetEV said:
I added the total for two bars. Notice that you dropped about two bars a year. One longer period over winter, one shorter including summer. I suspect the pattern we see here is seasonality, not different sized capacity bars.. Very little capacity is lost in winter, more is lost in summer, especially in hot places.

OK, that probably does make the most sense. Here in Florida, compared to up North, I'm thinking every day is summer. :)
 
I"m currently sitting at 8 bars, 40.4 Ah and 174 GIDs on a 100% charge after 60k miles and coming up on 6 years of ownership. 8th bar dropped 2 months after 5 years of ownership last August at 43.3 Ah and 186 GIDs on a 100% charge.

Bar 12: 30 months, 22k mi, 55.3 Ah, 228 GIDs
Bar 11: 41 months, 34k mi, 51.6 Ah, 220 GIDs
Bar 10: 52 months, 43k mi, 47.9 Ah, 205 GIDs
Bar 09: 62 months 53k mi, 43.3 Ah, 186 GIDs

You can see the trends, about 10 months / bar, 10k mi / bar, 4 Ah / bar, 14 GIDs / bar. I estimate that I'm a couple months away from losing the 9th bar.

Energy from the wall to recharge after getting below VLBW is less than 16 kWh. New, this would take 24 kWh or more. This puts me at around 65% capacity.

I managed to squeeze out 52 miles a couple weeks ago at a mediocre 4.1 mi/kWh - this compares with the 75 miles I could get the first year at similar efficiency, so all the numbers are fairly close to matching.

What really doesn't help range is the abysmal regenerative braking. While these crappy Conti PureContacts I just got managed to suck out a bunch of efficiency (avoid these if you care about efficiency), not having more than 10-15 kW of regen for most of the charge doesn't help city driving efficiency. You really have to have a nice warm pack (90F+), SOC at LBW or less and vehicle speed less than 45 mph to get close to 30 kWh.

What's interesting is that the lack of any active cooling is now showing up in the form of higher internal resistance in cell-pairs 4-44, especially in the middle of that range. Under steady load those cells are sagging significantly more than the the cells around it and cell-pairs 48-96. Once you start approaching those cells are also the first to start sagging at rest. You can see some very significant cell-pair voltage differences as you

With a horrible resale value at this point (probably $4k), there's no point in spending $6k on a new battery pack. The only thing that might make sense would be dropping a pack salvaged out of a '15+ LEAF if it could be done for less than $3k. First business to figure out how to marry a new pack to an old LEAF without having to do a labor intensive module swap will do well.
 
drees said:
With a horrible resale value at this point (probably $4k), there's no point in spending $6k on a new battery pack. The only thing that might make sense would be dropping a pack salvaged out of a '15+ LEAF if it could be done for less than $3k.
While our LEAF hasn't lost as much capacity as yours, we do suffer from diminished regen thanks to the combination of battery degradation and colder mountain temperatures.

I figure the best thing to do is just keep using the car as long as possible. Recently, for instance, some of us used it for a 50 mile round trip to a star party on the east side of Baldwin Lake (a large, shallow, seasonal mountain lake near Big Bear, CA). While we encountered a low battery warning on the way home, it served the purpose well, it saved miles and wear on our secondhand Tesla, and we felt fine eating in the car and using it to collect some rocks for our landscaping.
 
drees said:
I"m currently sitting at 8 bars, 40.4 Ah and 174 GIDs on a 100% charge after 60k miles and coming up on 6 years of ownership. 8th bar dropped 2 months after 5 years of ownership last August at 43.3 Ah and 186 GIDs on a 100% charge.

Bar 12: 30 months, 22k mi, 55.3 Ah, 228 GIDs
Bar 11: 41 months, 34k mi, 51.6 Ah, 220 GIDs
Bar 10: 52 months, 43k mi, 47.9 Ah, 205 GIDs
Bar 09: 62 months 53k mi, 43.3 Ah, 186 GIDs

You can see the trends, about 10 months / bar, 10k mi / bar, 4 Ah / bar, 14 GIDs / bar. I estimate that I'm a couple months away from losing the 9th bar.

Energy from the wall to recharge after getting below VLBW is less than 16 kWh. New, this would take 24 kWh or more. This puts me at around 65% capacity.

I managed to squeeze out 52 miles a couple weeks ago at a mediocre 4.1 mi/kWh - this compares with the 75 miles I could get the first year at similar efficiency, so all the numbers are fairly close to matching.

What really doesn't help range is the abysmal regenerative braking. While these crappy Conti PureContacts I just got managed to suck out a bunch of efficiency (avoid these if you care about efficiency), not having more than 10-15 kW of regen for most of the charge doesn't help city driving efficiency. You really have to have a nice warm pack (90F+), SOC at LBW or less and vehicle speed less than 45 mph to get close to 30 kWh.

What's interesting is that the lack of any active cooling is now showing up in the form of higher internal resistance in cell-pairs 4-44, especially in the middle of that range. Under steady load those cells are sagging significantly more than the the cells around it and cell-pairs 48-96. Once you start approaching those cells are also the first to start sagging at rest. You can see some very significant cell-pair voltage differences as you

With a horrible resale value at this point (probably $4k), there's no point in spending $6k on a new battery pack. The only thing that might make sense would be dropping a pack salvaged out of a '15+ LEAF if it could be done for less than $3k. First business to figure out how to marry a new pack to an old LEAF without having to do a labor intensive module swap will do well.

I have to say I am still shocked at your numbers. You are getting Phoenix stats, not Mediterranean San Diego stats. I think you got a Lemon...
 
No, there are plenty of other San Diego residents with similar results, some worse, some better.

If I were in Arizona I'd have a new battery pack. Instead I'm still stuck with this lemon.
 
Hi

I am in Nevada…..well today the fourth bar went….now to 8 on my 2012 with 27k . My warranty expires in December, I am getting 60 miles on the clock after charging, but it quickly decreases to the 40’s after just a couple of miles of travel. Would you suggest to wait after the hot summer or have it done right away. I have adjusted to keeping my distances in check. Do you know if Nissan is replacing the packs with the 2017 models? And will waiting be beneficial to getting the newer packs? Do the newest packs have a name to ask for?
Thanks,
Larry
 
If you can wait, it will be beneficial, especially if you can avoid some time in summer heat with the replacement pack. There's a slim chance that Nissan will make 30 kWh packs available as replacements, considering that they aren't making 24 kWh packs any more (do they still offer the 24 kWh pack anywhere?).
 
But hasn't Nissan repeatedly said that it's not possible for them to replace a 24kWh pack with a 30, because they operate on differently-colored electricity (or some equally plausible reason)?
 
No, Nissan has simply said they don't ever plan on doing it, not how difficult it is. In reality, it should just take some ECU remapping to make it work. The bigger issue will probably be the QA testing required for them to be comfortable releasing it, which would have no immediate financial return (at least for the bean-counters).

It's too bad, as Nissan has really fallen short in doing a good job of taking care of early adopters having left so many with a product that is drastically underperforming their promises.
 
Levenkay said:
But hasn't Nissan repeatedly said that it's not possible for them to replace a 24kWh pack with a 30, because they operate on differently-colored electricity (or some equally plausible reason)?
They've given some reason, last I heard was because of homologation.

Some posts I made about it:
http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=17168&p=476800&hilit=homologation#p476800
http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=17168&p=476802&hilit=homologation#p476802
http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=17168&p=476817&hilit=homologation#p476817

Someone else stated here or on a FB group I'm on that another problem is the discharge curves are different between the 24 and 30 kWh packs.
drees said:
which would have no immediate financial return (at least for the bean-counters).
Yep.
 
Tpsfoto said:
Hi

I am in Nevada…..well today the fourth bar went….now to 8 on my 2012 with 27k . My warranty expires in December, I am getting 60 miles on the clock after charging, but it quickly decreases to the 40’s after just a couple of miles of travel. Would you suggest to wait after the hot summer or have it done right away. I have adjusted to keeping my distances in check. Thanks,
Larry

I would definitely wait until there is about a week left for the warranty, especially in the heat of Nevada. Why get it replaced now if you can live with it? I kept going until I reached just a few miles under the 60K limit, and got through the summer here in Florida. I still had more time left, but no more miles. With more miles I'd be driving it as much as possible from now until the end of November.
 
Amped said:
Just noticed my Ahr went from 45.35 to 46.4 in about 3 weeks. We've had some days in the 50's and some days below 30. I did get LBW warning yesterday (below 30 degrees) after about 38 miles of driving 40 mph.I was on the last bar with 3 mi on the GOM when I made it back home. I've seen it go up and down over time. Mostly down. But, this is definitely the largest increase I'e seen. I've charging to 100% all winter.

In Feb, my Ahr was 45.35. It has been increasing with the rise in temps. Current temps are 55-60 and is quite cool for this time of year. As of today, my Ahr is 47.09. Weird that it keeps going up. Car hasn't had a QC since last fall. But, I have been charging to 100%. Not sure if it would go back down if I charged to 80%. I am now thinking I will not drop the 4th bar before 11/15 when the warranty is up.
 
Dropped to 7 capacity bars over the weekend.

39.29 Ah, 38.36 Hx, 169 GIDs / 139 GIDs 100/80%

About 2 weeks shy of 6 years of ownership and 61.5k miles - this last bar took about 9.5 months and a bit more than 8k miles.

Range at an indicated 4.0 mi/kWh is in around 36-38 miles to LBW and 44-46 miles to VLBW.

At this rate, losing about 0.5 Ah/month or 6 Ah/year or 2 kWh/year, if I could make the car last 10 years, it will be down to 15 Ah or less than 23% capacity remaining. That simply will not happen. Another year and I'll be hitting LBW on my commute and that's without lunch or errand trips.

I'm staring at the Nissan LEAF Battery page and looking at the quote:

KATIE M., NISSAN LEAF OWNER - "GOT THE 15K MILE CHECKUP ON MY NISSAN LEAF — IT WAS JUST $20 FOR TIRE ROTATION, CAR WASH, BATTERY TESTING"

Hah - I never made it out of the dealer for an annual maintenance visit for less than $120 - and that's with declining things like cabin air filter changes, etc. I'm taking it in tomorrow for the recommended 60k checkup (battery test, brake fluid flush, cabin air filter) - quoted price? $300. And that doesn't take into account the $6000 bill I'd face for a new battery. I'm not even sure why I'm spending the money, honestly. I guess I'm still holding on to the faint hope that something catastrophic happens to the battery within the defect warranty so Nissan has no reason to reject the claim.

Took it on a bit of a road trip this weekend, mostly just to see how it would do as I haven't really done anything besides commute in it for a while, drove 46 miles to a QC arriving just above VLBW with the help of some traffic, but crosswinds didn't help. Charged 30 minutes to 80% (but only about 11-12 kWh) . Drove another 20 miles topping off on L2 at a hotel. Drove 20 miles back the next day to same QC, charged until the car stopped after 30 minutes, at 90%+ charge. Babied it the remaining 40 miles home, arriving not far above VLBW. At least on the way home traffic was light and I ate dinner while charging, so no real time lost there.

Probably won't do that again unless I'm looking for the adventure. It would have been faster to take the train (thanks to traffic and arriving at the first QC stop finding both QCs in use by i3 REXes and having to wait 15 minutes). Also surprisingly, not that much more expensive given the high cost of QC on the EVgo network without a subscription plan.
 
Tpsfoto,

My battery was replaced before the summer and the new chemistry battery seems to be holding up very well in the Phx summer. Dramatically different than the previous chemistry.
Waiting for after summer would be the best, but if it inconvenience your life, you may want to change it sooner.
A new battery makes the car feel like it is new again.
Since I only charge to 80%, I find my efficiency miles/kwh is also much improved 4.3 (and we drive fast down here)
 
@Drees,
Did you have another go at Nissan, now that they are at least considering monetary participation in cars outside of warranty ?
 
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