Newbie: Range Questions 34 mile one way commute

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Have you considered a used Volt? (They also have a $225 lease deal on the 2016 LT leftovers.) You could do the trip in to work in EV mode only, at least in warmer weather, recharge at work, then do the same home. You'd still have the gasoline engine for backup, so no range issues.

No lease will work for me. I commute 18,000 to 20,000 miles a year
 
SageBrush said:
LeftieBiker said:
Realistically speaking, if you don't want to have a Leaf Owner's Nightmare, you have to have reliable workplace charging. 120 volts is fine, as long as you are ok with unpacking (or just unloading/reloading) the charging cable (aka "EVSE") twice a day. Don't listen to people who say to go ahead with that round trip without recharging, because while it's possible, it isn't something you want to do daily, or even weekly - unless you enjoy daily "challenges" like that. Too many people buy a Leaf and then end up hating EVs because of the limited range, especially at freeway speeds and in Winter.
Very, very good advice.

I also work at an IHS hospital, and tried for *months* to get approval for L1 charging. I am a physician, the facility has difficulty keeping doctors, and the senior physicians in the hierarchy were all strongly in favor of my EV use -- all for naught. The local native administration can be frightfully petty and stupid, and have no trouble breaking promises. If you have *any* doubts, get the promise in writing -- preferably in the contract. And if you succeed, let me know!


Sage, I'm very interested in your experience! When you say "approve for L1 charging," are you talking the ability to even be able to plug in at work or a dedicated station? The reason I was asking is because at our facility, physician parking is just along the perimeter of the building. I was planning on just "plugging in" to an outside outlet. Not sure if I'm asking for trouble. I spoke with my "senior physician" and he said we could make something work. Your comment about getting everything in writing is making me nervous about the job as well as the EV situation as well. Please PM me with your contact info if you'd be willing to talk.

I'm driving down to the facility Monday morning to do some final paperwork and will spend some time "checking" the place out for viable options.
 
IssacZachary said:
offtosleep said:
The first 18 miles are through a rural small town (two lanes in each direction). I'll be driving at about 5am in the morning. The posted speed limit varies between 35-45mph. Once I hit the downhill stretch, it's 55mph, but you can go slightly faster.

I'd really like to take care of the battery, so I'd like to charge to a max of 80% and not go below 20%. I foresee having to make this trip for the next 3-5 years. I'd like to make the car last.
Although possible, you'll have to manually monitor the charge to 80% and then stop the charging in a 2014 or newer Leaf. Only 2013 and older US Leafs have the 80% charge feature.

This could work. Charge to 80% at home. Turn it off. Go to work and arrive with 20% or 30%. Charge for 10 hours on 120V back up to 80%. Then go back home.

But would it be worth the hassle? From what I understand it's leaving it at 100% for extended periods of time, especially in hot weather, that hurts the battery.

If you get a 240V EVSE on your home you could set the timer to end charging right before you leave for work. Then you'd only be at 100% for only a short time in the cool morning. At work it will be 120V trickle charging (less heat) and will reach 100% right before you leave, if it reaches 100% at all.

I was completely unaware that the newer models wouldn't allow you to set the high charge limit. From your comment, it sounds like the 2013's were the end of that. It makes sense that leaving it at 100% charge for a little as possible helps preserve the battery (who knows for sure.)
 
alozzy said:
Would Larry H Miller Nissan on route 202 be an option for you? They have level 3 charging there. Checkout PlugShare.

Also, you could ask if they have a 14-50 outlet anywhere in the hospital parking lot, as a 30A+ portable EVSE with a 14-50 plugin on it would charge your Leaf at full rate.


Larry H Miller is NOT EVEN CLOSE!!! It may as well be Alaska.
 
silverone said:
LeftieBiker said:
offtosleep said:
From talking to the hospital, it sounds like I'll have at minimum 120v charging. Of course I'll have 120v at home (I'm good with electrical and will likely install a 240v unit.

I don't like "challenges." I'd like to go a different route (petrol) if it can't be safely done without a huge amount of hassle. When temperatures drop, I'll also be fighting snow. I can't afford to be stuck and found frozen to death.

I'm in a rural setting with windy roads. I don't see myself ever going over 65mph

Have you considered a used Volt? (They also have a $225 lease deal on the 2016 LT leftovers.) You could do the trip in to work in EV mode only, at least in warmer weather, recharge at work, then do the same home. You'd still have the gasoline engine for backup, so no range issues.

I initially chose a Gen 1 Volt for a similar rural commute, 65 miles round trip with a 600ft elevation change, due to being unsure about the reliability of workplace charging. As time has gone on, I've been able to champion the workplace charging effort and get multiple L2 16A chargers installed, so I no longer have a concern about reliability - and chose to get a Leaf as a supplemental car.

I haven't had the car in truly warm weather yet, but there have been very few days when I could have made the round trip without workplace charging. I'm sure the 30kWh Leaf would change that equation.

I'd really like to NOT go the Volt route. If I'm going down that road, I have considered a TDI Jetta/Golf, corolla, etc. I'd really like to stick with EV. The challenges may be too large to overcome. Who knows. I'll find out more Monday when I go to the facility and spend some time focused nearly solely on the charging problem.

I have also considered the 2016 Leaf with the higher capacity battery. That would solve many of the problems, or at least minimize them. But long term, battery degradation will hurt me (possibly).

Another option would be the new Chevy Bolt or a Tesla Model 3. I'm not into being a tester for "new models." Got burned on that one time before and swore I'd never do it again. The Bolt and Model 3 may be different animals from the traditional initial year follies of a new model "gasser." At least sticking with the Leaf, little to no changes have been made.
 
Phatcat73 said:
To the OP. 120v charging will net you about 3 miles per hour. However if I had to purchase a Leaf today for that commute I'd look for a 30KW version Leaf. You'll have a much better battery degradation warranty. Should be some good deals out there with the competition and gen 2 announcement.


This really sounds like my best route!
 
offtosleep said:
Sage, I'm very interested in your experience! When you say "approve for L1 charging," are you talking the ability to even be able to plug in at work or a dedicated station? The reason I was asking is because at our facility, physician parking is just along the perimeter of the building. I was planning on just "plugging in" to an outside outlet. Not sure if I'm asking for trouble. I spoke with my "senior physician" and he said we could make something work. Your comment about getting everything in writing is making me nervous about the job as well as the EV situation as well. Please PM me with your contact info if you'd be willing to talk.

I'm driving down to the facility Monday morning to do some final paperwork and will spend some time "checking" the place out for viable options.
I asked for approval to plug in to a 120v socket.
At a minimum, get an email from the hospital CEO that is also sent to the facility manager who then responds with no objections. Make this contingent on signing the contract, because you will not have any leverage afterwards.

I'm happy to stay in contact with you if I can help, and your success might move the idiots at my hospital. PM is fine.
 
offtosleep said:
I was completely unaware that the newer models wouldn't allow you to set the high charge limit. From your comment, it sounds like the 2013's were the end of that. It makes sense that leaving it at 100% charge for a little as possible helps preserve the battery #who knows for sure.#
I was too since I have a 2013. The theory is that the EPA uses the 80% charge in their range rating. So if the car has an 80% charge feature the EPA gives it a lower range. The 2013 Leaf has an EPA range of 75 miles, but the 2014 and new Leafs have an 84 mile EPA range.

If you buy a +2014 Leaf in another country other than the USA it will still have the 80% feature. (Thanks EPA! :x )

But then again, it seems the 80% charging doesn't help all that much. It's the heat that's the real killer. There are Leaf owners who have babied their Leafs by always charging them to 80% and still get notable battery degradation, yet there are others that always charge to 100% and 50,000 miles later still have all 12 bars.
 
offtosleep said:
Have you considered a used Volt? (They also have a $225 lease deal on the 2016 LT leftovers.) You could do the trip in to work in EV mode only, at least in warmer weather, recharge at work, then do the same home. You'd still have the gasoline engine for backup, so no range issues.

No lease will work for me. I commute 18,000 to 20,000 miles a year

A lease can be the best route to buying an EV, oddly enough. You lease a car with a low monthly payment and low residual, and then buy it when the lease ends. In that case the mileage doesn't matter, because you aren't turning it back in - you're keeping it. This only works well if the car is being offered cheap, to clear inventory. You also don't have to worry about the tax credit being revoked this year, as the leasing company takes that and gives you credit for a down payment.
 
Ok, here's some math for you.

So you say you'd start your first part of the trip climbing 1200ft for 18 miles through small town traffic of speeds between 35 and 45mph. Then you hit a downhill slope that's a 2,200ft drop for the next 16miles on a 55mph highway.

The in town energy use can vary a lot depending on how many stops. For me, I seem to average about 3.5mi/kWh through town, no heat or A/C, on flat ground. At that rate, plus the 1,200ft rise, you'd use 7.14kWh (about 36% of your battery) for the first 18 miles. If you don't have many stops you might be able to use as little as only 6kWh (about 30% of your battery). On a rough day pushing through snow you'd use around 9.2kWh (or about 46% of your battery) to get to the top.

Next, you'd go down 2,200ft for 16 miles at 55mph. That's plenty steep enough to have to use regen braking. If you do 55mph or less and the grade is pretty consistent you might come out even at the bottom. Or you might use about 1.72kWh (9%). Of course snow and AC or heater use could change that. Say you're going through some snow and such, you could use 2.7kWh (14%) or more.

So you get to work, best case scenario likely being about 7.72kWh or 39% battery use, and worse case scenario being about 11.9kWh, or 60% battery use. You'd have 10 hours to charge up another 50%, so you'd have either a full battery or pretty close by the time it's time to go home.

Now on the way back things will be different. You'd have to first climb 2,200ft for 16 miles. That would suck up at least around 7.22kWh (36%). Or in worse weather, perhaps 8.24kWh (42%) or more. So you obviously need to charge at work to make it.

Next would be the small town traffic. With your small town traffic you'd likely use around 3.14kWh (16%) with no heat or AC. Or around 6.2kWh (29%) through bad weather.

So you'd need anywhere from 10.3kWh or 53% to 14.4kWh or 71% to make it back home.

Conclusion

No heat, no AC, no snow, driving sensibly, you're looking at getting to work with 61% battery capacity still left (41% if you charged to only 80%) and then getting home with 8% if you didn't charge at work (100% from home), or you could charge up to 100% or 80% at work and get home with 47% or 27% respectively.

So a worse case scenario would be (assuming you charged to 100% knowing it's going to be winter) you'd use 60% to get there, only able to charge to 90% at work, and then get back home with 19% still left.

If you could get a 240V EVSE at your place of work you could always charge to 100% and allways have enough to make it home with 29% or more left on the battery. Or if there were a 240V somewhere on the edge of the small town, about half way between you and your job, you'd be set for just about the worse of the worse case scenarios, even after you lose three battery bars. You could also wait another couple hours at work waiting for the snow to settle down in such a worse case scenario and at the same time finish up charging to 100%.

Conclusion of the conclusion

If you can charge at work, even off of 120V, you should be able to get to your work or home with at least a 29% charge left in a worse case blizzard scenario. And I'm calculating off of my experience with subzero, Coloradan, blizzard weather, so you'd probably never even reach the 29% I calculated, and always make it home with plenty more. That would mean even after the battery degrades down to 9 bars, you'd still have enough range left to make the trip.
 
IssacZachary said:
Ok, here's some math for you.

So you say you'd start your first part of the trip climbing 1200ft for 18 miles through small town traffic of speeds between 35 and 45mph. Then you hit a downhill slope that's a 2,200ft drop for the next 16miles on a 55mph highway.

The in town energy use can vary a lot depending on how many stops. For me, I seem to average about 3.5mi/kWh through town, no heat or A/C, on flat ground. At that rate, plus the 1,200ft rise, you'd use 7.14kWh (about 36% of your battery) for the first 18 miles. If you don't have many stops you might be able to use as little as only 6kWh (about 30% of your battery). On a rough day pushing through snow you'd use around 9.2kWh (or about 46% of your battery) to get to the top.

Next, you'd go down 2,200ft for 16 miles at 55mph. That's plenty steep enough to have to use regen braking. If you do 55mph or less and the grade is pretty consistent you might come out even at the bottom. Or you might use about 1.72kWh (9%). Of course snow and AC or heater use could change that. Say you're going through some snow and such, you could use 2.7kWh (14%) or more.

So you get to work, best case scenario likely being about 7.72kWh or 39% battery use, and worse case scenario being about 11.9kWh, or 60% battery use. You'd have 10 hours to charge up another 50%, so you'd have either a full battery or pretty close by the time it's time to go home.

Now on the way back things will be different. You'd have to first climb 2,200ft for 16 miles. That would suck up at least around 7.22kWh (36%). Or in worse weather, perhaps 8.24kWh (42%) or more. So you obviously need to charge at work to make it.

Next would be the small town traffic. With your small town traffic you'd likely use around 3.14kWh (16%) with no heat or AC. Or around 6.2kWh (29%) through bad weather.

So you'd need anywhere from 10.3kWh or 53% to 14.4kWh or 71% to make it back home.

Conclusion

No heat, no AC, no snow, driving sensibly, you're looking at getting to work with 61% battery capacity still left (41% if you charged to only 80%) and then getting home with 8% if you didn't charge at work (100% from home), or you could charge up to 100% or 80% at work and get home with 47% or 27% respectively.

So a worse case scenario would be (assuming you charged to 100% knowing it's going to be winter) you'd use 60% to get there, only able to charge to 90% at work, and then get back home with 19% still left.

If you could get a 240V EVSE at your place of work you could always charge to 100% and allways have enough to make it home with 29% or more left on the battery. Or if there were a 240V somewhere on the edge of the small town, about half way between you and your job, you'd be set for just about the worse of the worse case scenarios, even after you lose three battery bars. You could also wait another couple hours at work waiting for the snow to settle down in such a worse case scenario and at the same time finish up charging to 100%.

Conclusion of the conclusion

If you can charge at work, even off of 120V, you should be able to get to your work or home with at least a 29% charge left in a worse case blizzard scenario. And I'm calculating off of my experience with subzero, Coloradan, blizzard weather, so you'd probably never even reach the 29% I calculated, and always make it home with plenty more. That would mean even after the battery degrades down to 9 bars, you'd still have enough range left to make the trip.


AWESOME!!! That is reassuring! Especially with the mathematical explanation. Are these calculations based on a 24kwh battery or the 30kwh?

I should know more Monday when I check out the facility to with charging in mind :)
 
offtosleep said:
AWESOME!!! That is reassuring! Especially with the mathematical explanation. Are these calculations based on a 24kwh battery or the 30kwh?

I should know more Monday when I check out the facility to with charging in mind :)

Off of the 24kWh battery. I did this with Sagebrush's calculations of 4.5mi/kWh plus 0.5kWh every 300ft of climb. Actually I tweaked the 4.5mi/kWh down to 3.5mi/kWh for town and 2.5mi/kWh town and 3.5mi/kWh highway for severe weather, which is about what I see here in terrible weather (and we got like 5ft of snow and temps down to -36*F this winter)

The 30kWh would keep going with even more battery degradation. If you plan on doing this and keeping the car for the next 10 years you might want to consider a 30kWh Leaf. Like I said before, also make sure you get a heat pump SV or SL. Avoid the S since it will use a lot more electricity to heat during the winter. And with such long work days, chances are you'll be driving at night and need heat.
 
IssacZachary said:
offtosleep said:
AWESOME!!! That is reassuring! Especially with the mathematical explanation. Are these calculations based on a 24kwh battery or the 30kwh?

I should know more Monday when I check out the facility to with charging in mind :)

Off of the 24kWh battery. I did this with Sagebrush's calculations of 4.5kWh per mile plus 0.5kWh every 300ft of climb. Actually I tweaked the 4.5kWh down to 3.5kWh for town and 2.5kWh town and 3.5kWh highway for severe weather, which is about what I see here in terrible weather (and we got like 5ft of snow and temps down to -36*F this winter)

The 30kWh would keep going with even more battery degradation. If you plan on doing this and keeping the car for the next 10 years you might want to consider a 30kWh Leaf. Like I said before, also make sure you get a heat pump SV or SL. Avoid the S since it will use a lot more electricity to heat during the winter. And with such long work days, chances are you'll be driving at night and need heat.


Would it be doable with an S model? The SL AND SV models are hard to locate for a reasonable amount of money.
 
IssacZachary said:
offtosleep said:
AWESOME!!! That is reassuring! Especially with the mathematical explanation. Are these calculations based on a 24kwh battery or the 30kwh?

I should know more Monday when I check out the facility to with charging in mind :)

Off of the 24kWh battery. I did this with Sagebrush's calculations of 4.5kWh per mile plus 0.5kWh every 300ft of climb. Actually I tweaked the 4.5kWh down to 3.5kWh for town and 2.5kWh town and 3.5kWh highway for severe weather, which is about what I see here in terrible weather (and we got like 5ft of snow and temps down to -36*F this winter)

The 30kWh would keep going with even more battery degradation. If you plan on doing this and keeping the car for the next 10 years you might want to consider a 30kWh Leaf. Like I said before, also make sure you get a heat pump SV or SL. Avoid the S since it will use a lot more electricity to heat during the winter. And with such long work days, chances are you'll be driving at night and need heat.


This may be an impossible question to answer, but how many years of this drive do you think I could get out of one of these vehicles?
 
offtosleep said:
Would it be doable with an S model? The SL AND SV models are hard to locate for a reasonable amount of money.
I think so. The S uses about twice as much electricity to heat itself from what I understand. So if you use 3kWh (15%) of your battery in an S to heat yourself all the way to work it likely would have only taken 1.5 kWh (7.5%) in an SV or SL (2013 or newer of course.)

The longevity depends mainly on ambient/battery heat, your warranty, if you'd be willing to spend $6,000 on a dealer battery, and if any aftermarket solutions ever come about.
 
IssacZachary said:
I did this with Sagebrush's calculations of 4.5kWh per mile plus 0.5kWh every 300ft of climb. .
I think I was the first to flip this number :D
Should be 4.5 miles per kWh

OP may want to visit your thread to get a handle on the calcs. The change in elevation portion may not be intuitive, and is NET change.
 
SageBrush said:
IssacZachary said:
I did this with Sagebrush's calculations of 4.5kWh per mile plus 0.5kWh every 300ft of climb. .
I think I was the first to flip this number :D
Should be 4.5 miles per kWh

OP may want to visit your thread to get a handle on the calcs. The change in elevation portion may not be intuitive, and is NET change.


That's where I'm confused. The calculations are NOT intuitive since I'm new to this stuff.
 
offtosleep said:
As long as the SOH shows 12 bars, does it really matter what year I get?

2011 and 2012 had the worst heaters, level 2 charging speeds (8 hours) and battery degradation (although if you find one with 12 bars it might have a new battery.) Early 2013's have the same battery, but better heaters, although the S's aren't as good as the SV's and SL's as far as heating goes but still better than the 2011's and 2012's. Most S's still retain the slower "8 hour" Level 2 chargers, but from now on the SV's and SL's have a "4 hour" level 2 charger. April and newer 2013's have a better battery. 2014's dropped the 80% feature. 2015's and newer supposedly have an even better battery. 2016 and 2017's have the 30kWh option with the SL's and SV's. Any year could have a CHAdeMO port or not, so ask if that's important to you.
 
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