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I can't wait to talk to a Bolt owner to see if their car has the same setup for 12 volt stuff. I hate the whole idea of the 12 volt battery in the leaf, and if Chevy avoided it that is one mark in the win column, as far as I am concerned.
 
dgpcolorado said:
Tesla does not display battery temperature directly but it does clearly display regen and power limits, in kW, when the battery is cold (or full, in the case of regen), which is the important thing to a driver. As with other EVs, charging right before driving in cold weather helps warm the battery and increase the regen and power available. Maximum regen is 60 kW and maximum power in my S60 — the slowest Tesla made — is 240 kW.
Click to expand...

Then not very useful, not having remaining Ahrs/kWhrs, i.e. only SOC and range are not helpful when you have
a "shrinking gas tank". Hopefully, Jim (LeafSpy) will continue his efforts in providing a "TeslaSpy", if he hasn't
provided one yet. Even though future BEVs will have much less of an issue with range anxiety, it's still very
helpful to know the actual remaining (& @ 100% SOC) battery capacity either in Ahrs or energy in kWhrs
 
GetOffYourGas said:
DaveinOlyWA said:
As far as charging speed? If your only experience is with a 24 kwh LEAF, you really would be shocked at the huge leap in usability of the 30 kwh LEAF. Most can't see past the minimal 6 kwh bump. Trust me, there is a lot more there!

http://daveinolywa.blogspot.com/2017/03/road-trip-adventures-of-9-tb-journey.html
Click to expand...

Usability is all relative. And it's about the combination of range and charging speed.

Check out Syracuse NY on Plugshare. There is all of 1 CHAdeMO within 100 miles of me, in Ithaca. A city I visit maybe once or twice a year? Otherwise, the range of a 30kWh Leaf would not cover a significantly larger number of my annual miles than a 24kWh Leaf.

But there is a cluster of CCS/CHAdeMO chargers in Albany, about 150 miles away. A Bolt would easily get there. The return would be trickier since I'd have to charge up past the taper point, but it's doable. It's just not possible in a 30kWh Leaf. And Albany is a mid-point for most of the places that I travel. Every direction other than west has a DCQC within reasonable distance. So yeah, going out is easy. Returning home has one tricky leg - the last one. And a 30kWh Leaf is just as useless as a 24kWh Leaf on those trips.
Click to expand...

Obviously its relative and my statement hardly implies that my LEAF has solved all my problems so great comparison of nothing from nothing. Ok, time for someone from South Dakota to chime in!
 
lorenfb said:
Then not very useful, not having remaining Ahrs/kWhrs, i.e. only SOC and range are not helpful when you have a "shrinking gas tank". Hopefully, Jim (LeafSpy) will continue his efforts in providing a "TeslaSpy", if he hasn't
provided one yet. Even though future BEVs will have much less of an issue with range anxiety, it's still very
helpful to know the actual remaining (& @ 100% SOC) battery capacity either in Ahrs or energy in kWhrs
Click to expand...
Tesla's rated miles (RM) serve as a proxy for usable capacity and are used as such by Tesla drivers. It is also a more user-friendly metric than kWh or Ah. Something I can say with confidence, having used it to stretch the range of my car on a recent road trip by comparing the RM to actual miles left and keeping an eye on how the difference varied with terrain and speed; it is straightforward and intuitive in a way that kWh and Ah would not be.

In my car one RM is 300 Wh/mile so if my accumulated trip energy usage has been 330 Wh/mile, something that Tesla displays on the dash, I know that I need 1.1 x as many RM left as actual distance left. If I fall short of that number I can slow down and reduce my energy usage. If the number of RM left is greater than 1.1 x actual distance left to go I can speed up, if I wish. In actual usage one can just compare the difference between RM left and actual miles left. If that number is shrinking one might be using energy too quickly to make the destination, depending on the size of the difference. The trip plot provides an even easier way to measure progress in fuel usage versus distance since it displays current SOC, projected battery SOC at the destination, compensates for terrain, and does the calculations automatically.

Where temperature, HVAC use, and the like come into play is in actual energy usage for the trip, something that is displayed on the dash in Wh/mile. Most of the time leaving on a trip leg with a sufficient buffer makes watching the numbers unnecessary. If I leave with 170 RM to make a 90 mile trip leg I certainly don't have to pay attention to energy usage under most driving conditions. It also is irrelevant for local driving since the range of the car greatly exceeds my local driving needs (70 mile grocery shopping trips with large elevation change, for example). But the energy in the battery information is there if needed.
 
dgpcolorado said:
lorenfb said:
Then not very useful, not having remaining Ahrs/kWhrs, i.e. only SOC and range are not helpful when you have a "shrinking gas tank". Hopefully, Jim (LeafSpy) will continue his efforts in providing a "TeslaSpy", if he hasn't
provided one yet. Even though future BEVs will have much less of an issue with range anxiety, it's still very
helpful to know the actual remaining (& @ 100% SOC) battery capacity either in Ahrs or energy in kWhrs
Click to expand...
Tesla's rated miles (RM) serve as a proxy for usable capacity and are used as such by Tesla drivers. It is also a more user-friendly metric than kWh or Ah. Something I can say with confidence, having used it to stretch the range of my car on a recent road trip by comparing the RM to actual miles left and keeping an eye on how the difference varied with terrain and speed; it is straightforward and intuitive in a way that kWh and Ah would not be.
Click to expand...
I also like GM's method of showing max., average and minimum ranges simultaneously. Depending on how conservative you are, pick one, subtract your reserve from it (or just use average or max. and let average or minimum be your reserve) and go.
 
GRA said:
I also like GM's method of showing max., average and minimum ranges simultaneously. Depending on how conservative you are, pick one, subtract your reserve from it (or just use average or max. and let average or minimum be your reserve) and go.
Click to expand...
The problem with that approach, from my perspective, is that those max, average, and minimum ranges aren't really meaningful. The Tesla trip plot includes terrain changes and gives real time updates to the projection. The RM serves as a finely divided fuel gauge. The trip energy use display serves to give a measure of actual energy use during the conditions since the last stop, last charge or last 5, 15, 30 miles (all of those are available).

For local driving, which is the majority of use of most cars, none of this matters in the slightest in a 200 mile range EV: you start out with a 90% charge, drive however you want, plug-in when you get home, and repeat the next day. [Yes I know that there are outliers who drive more than a hundred miles per day who can be limited in range, especially in cold or snowy weather. That 1% strikes me as irrelevant; they can go with other options.] Paying close attention to the energy profile of a 200 mile range EV is for road trips. The Bolt simply isn't a road trip car, given the current and near future DCFC infrastructure.

In my view, it doesn't really matter very much how precisely the Bolt displays charge levels. That sort of stuff is for short range EVs, such as the LEAF, where range is sometimes limiting even in local driving. My sense is that the concern about such things here at MNL is a carryover from our collective short-range-LEAF experience. I have been trying to point out that once one gets to 200 miles of range it simply doesn't matter much, save for actual road trips. IME, it appears that I am a "minority of one" in this viewpoint!
 
dgpcolorado said:
GRA said:
I also like GM's method of showing max., average and minimum ranges simultaneously. Depending on how conservative you are, pick one, subtract your reserve from it (or just use average or max. and let average or minimum be your reserve) and go.
Click to expand...
The problem with that approach, from my perspective, is that those max, average, and minimum ranges aren't really meaningful. The Tesla trip plot includes terrain changes and gives real time updates to the projection. The RM serves as a finely divided fuel gauge. The trip energy use display serves to give a measure of actual energy use during the conditions since the last stop, last charge or last 5, 15, 30 miles (all of those are available).

For local driving, which is the majority of use of most cars, none of this matters in the slightest in a 200 mile range EV: you start out with a 90% charge, drive however you want, plug-in when you get home, and repeat the next day. [Yes I know that there are outliers who drive more than a hundred miles per day who can be limited in range, especially in cold or snowy weather. That 1% strikes me as irrelevant; they can go with other options.] Paying close attention to the energy profile of a 200 mile range EV is for road trips. The Bolt simply isn't a road trip car, given the current and near future DCFC infrastructure.

In my view, it doesn't really matter very much how precisely the Bolt displays charge levels. That sort of stuff is for short range EVs, such as the LEAF, where range is sometimes limiting even in local driving. My sense is that the concern about such things here at MNL is a carryover from our collective short-range-LEAF experience. I have been trying to point out that once one gets to 200 miles of range it simply doesn't matter much, save for actual road trips. IME, it appears that I am a "minority of one" in this viewpoint!
Click to expand...
I agree that the RM trip plot is easier to use, but I think the max./avg./min. method forces people to think more and pay attention to the car's performance under varying real world conditions, as well as being aware of how those conditions will change in the near future (big climbs/descents etc.)instead of just reacting. But then I also prefer to drive a stick shift because of its greater driver engagement, and I realize I'm an outlier in the U.S. Certainly, for the average person the RM method with terrain plot is likely to be more popular. I guess I'm generally resistant to depending on a fuel gauge or any other single instrument and not using my brain (note that my current car lacks a GOM, GPS or connectivity, but it does have weather band radio and is stocked with maps). Fortunately, with a variety of methods now available to people, they can choose whichever suits them best.
 
DaveinOlyWA said:
GetOffYourGas said:
DaveinOlyWA said:
As far as charging speed? If your only experience is with a 24 kwh LEAF, you really would be shocked at the huge leap in usability of the 30 kwh LEAF. Most can't see past the minimal 6 kwh bump. Trust me, there is a lot more there!

http://daveinolywa.blogspot.com/2017/03/road-trip-adventures-of-9-tb-journey.html
Click to expand...

Usability is all relative. And it's about the combination of range and charging speed.

Check out Syracuse NY on Plugshare. There is all of 1 CHAdeMO within 100 miles of me, in Ithaca. A city I visit maybe once or twice a year? Otherwise, the range of a 30kWh Leaf would not cover a significantly larger number of my annual miles than a 24kWh Leaf.

But there is a cluster of CCS/CHAdeMO chargers in Albany, about 150 miles away. A Bolt would easily get there. The return would be trickier since I'd have to charge up past the taper point, but it's doable. It's just not possible in a 30kWh Leaf. And Albany is a mid-point for most of the places that I travel. Every direction other than west has a DCQC within reasonable distance. So yeah, going out is easy. Returning home has one tricky leg - the last one. And a 30kWh Leaf is just as useless as a 24kWh Leaf on those trips.
Click to expand...

Obviously its relative and my statement hardly implies that my LEAF has solved all my problems so great comparison of nothing from nothing. Ok, time for someone from South Dakota to chime in!
Click to expand...

Ok, Dave, you lost me. I don't understand what you are trying to say here.

I was responding to your claim that I "really would be shocked at the huge leap in usability of the 30 kwh LEAF". I have given my reasons why I suspect that I really would be underwhelmed by the addition of 6kWh. It would make very little improvement to the car's usability to me.

The Bolt adds so much more usability, even if the "quick charging" is slower than on the 30kWh Leaf. The Leaf wouldn't even get me to the DCQC in question! Yes, infrastructure might (hopefully WILL) improve in the future. But I refuse to buy a car on the *hopes* that there will eventually be chargers where I need them.
 
DanDietrich said:
I can't wait to talk to a Bolt owner to see if their car has the same setup for 12 volt stuff. I hate the whole idea of the 12 volt battery in the leaf, and if Chevy avoided it that is one mark in the win column, as far as I am concerned.
Click to expand...
Hyundai Ioniq looks to eliminate the 12V Lead Acid battery with a "Consolidated" battery pack (at 02:00). Bolt still has a separate battery.

https://youtu.be/h2PGHwLzfz8
 
dgpcolorado said:
lorenfb said:
Then not very useful, not having remaining Ahrs/kWhrs, i.e. only SOC and range are not helpful when you have a "shrinking gas tank". Hopefully, Jim (LeafSpy) will continue his efforts in providing a "TeslaSpy", if he hasn't
provided one yet. Even though future BEVs will have much less of an issue with range anxiety, it's still very
helpful to know the actual remaining (& @ 100% SOC) battery capacity either in Ahrs or energy in kWhrs
Click to expand...
Tesla's rated miles (RM) serve as a proxy for usable capacity and are used as such by Tesla drivers. It is also a more user-friendly metric than kWh or Ah. Something I can say with confidence, having used it to stretch the range of my car on a recent road trip by comparing the RM to actual miles left and keeping an eye on how the difference varied with terrain and speed; it is straightforward and intuitive in a way that kWh and Ah would not be.

In my car one RM is 300 Wh/mile so if my accumulated trip energy usage has been 330 Wh/mile, something that Tesla displays on the dash, I know that I need 1.1 x as many RM left as actual distance left. If I fall short of that number I can slow down and reduce my energy usage. If the number of RM left is greater than 1.1 x actual distance left to go I can speed up, if I wish. In actual usage one can just compare the difference between RM left and actual miles left. If that number is shrinking one might be using energy too quickly to make the destination, depending on the size of the difference. The trip plot provides an even easier way to measure progress in fuel usage versus distance since it displays current SOC, projected battery SOC at the destination, compensates for terrain, and does the calculations automatically.

Where temperature, HVAC use, and the like come into play is in actual energy usage for the trip, something that is displayed on the dash in Wh/mile. Most of the time leaving on a trip leg with a sufficient buffer makes watching the numbers unnecessary. If I leave with 170 RM to make a 90 mile trip leg I certainly don't have to pay attention to energy usage under most driving conditions. It also is irrelevant for local driving since the range of the car greatly exceeds my local driving needs (70 mile grocery shopping trips with large elevation change, for example). But the energy in the battery information is there if needed.
Click to expand...

I just got a headache. It's overly complex and still relies on historical averages. Even with my ICEVs,
I discount the range estimate and utilize the gas gauge. Using either Ahrs or kWhrs is analogous
to having a gas gauge which essentially is a true measure of capacity. Besides the typical consumer's
unfamiliarity understanding of those terms, most BEV OEMs don't care to have the consumer become
aware of battery degradation. Unfortunately, most all future BEVs won't ever provide a true measure
of remaining battery capacity.

With my monitoring of my Leaf over the last 3.5 yrs (47K miles), I can very reliably estimate my range
as a worse case estimate of about 2.2 miles/Ahr. Yes, my estimate is based on averages just like the Leaf's
GOM (poor), but at least I can see in real time how the actual capacity is changing and NOT relying on
historical longer term estimates. That's one of the reasons many of us utilize LeafSpy and/or LeafDD.
Furthermore, having access to the actual battery Ahrs, allows my determining how low the battery
will be discharged during a current trip before a re-charge.
 
lorenfb said:
Hopefully, Jim (LeafSpy) will continue his efforts in providing a "TeslaSpy", if he hasn't
provided one yet.
Click to expand...
http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=21507
https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/posts/1380958/
 
cwerdna said:
lorenfb said:
Hopefully, Jim (LeafSpy) will continue his efforts in providing a "TeslaSpy", if he hasn't
provided one yet.
Click to expand...
http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=21507
https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/posts/1380958/
Click to expand...

Thanks for the insight.
 
lorenfb said:
...

With my monitoring of my Leaf over the last 3.5 yrs (47K miles), I can very reliably estimate my range
as a worse case estimate of about 2.2 miles/Ahr. Yes, my estimate is based on averages just like the Leaf's
GOM (poor), but at least I can see in real time how the actual capacity is changing and NOT relying on
historical longer term estimates. That's one of the reasons many of us utilize LeafSpy and/or LeafDD.
Furthermore, having access to the actual battery Ahrs, allows my determining how low the battery
will be discharged during a current trip before a re-charge.
Click to expand...

I can very reliable estimate my range too.
I look at the "miles remaining" range display. Or, I can look at the "predicted range remaining" available on the energy tab of the display.
Or, if I am using NAV, I can look at the estimate ramaining battery percentage left at the destination.

The estimated range is very good in most cars. It is the Leaf's biggest weakness IMO. With a good estimate, I far prefer estimated miles remaining over Ahrs.
 
lorenfb said:
I just got a headache. It's overly complex and still relies on historical averages. Even with my ICEVs,
I discount the range estimate and utilize the gas gauge. Using either Ahrs or kWhrs is analogous
to having a gas gauge which essentially is a true measure of capacity. Besides the typical consumer's
unfamiliarity understanding of those terms, most BEV OEMs don't care to have the consumer become
aware of battery degradation. Unfortunately, most all future BEVs won't ever provide a true measure
of remaining battery capacity.

With my monitoring of my Leaf over the last 3.5 yrs (47K miles), I can very reliably estimate my range
as a worse case estimate of about 2.2 miles/Ahr. Yes, my estimate is based on averages just like the Leaf's
GOM (poor), but at least I can see in real time how the actual capacity is changing and NOT relying on
historical longer term estimates. That's one of the reasons many of us utilize LeafSpy and/or LeafDD.
Furthermore, having access to the actual battery Ahrs, allows my determining how low the battery
will be discharged during a current trip before a re-charge.
Click to expand...
I used a Leaf DD as well but that is way too complex for most people. It was essential for me because I was stretching the range of my LEAF every time I went grocery shopping, especially in winter when the battery had degraded. How many ordinary people who don't hang out at MNL really understand Ah or kWh? Or care?

Such things figure to be irrelevant on the Bolt for most people because the range is great enough that it doesn't matter in daily local driving. Why pay attention to the fuel gauge when you start out with a nearly full tank each day?

Regardless, the Tesla "rated miles" (RM) is a more helpful fuel gauge than Ah or kWh since it is more finely divided and easier to grasp for most people. It has nothing whatever to do with historical averages, as you suggest, it is just a measure of energy in the battery based on the EPA efficiency of the car, a fixed number. There are many other tools available to help with measuring driving conditions and actual range but RM is just an energy gauge.
 
dgpcolorado said:
it is just a measure of energy in the battery based on the EPA efficiency of the car, a fixed number. There are many other tools available to help with measuring driving conditions and actual range but RM is just an energy gauge.
Click to expand...

Great, another GOM based on someone else's driving conditions!
 
lorenfb said:
dgpcolorado said:
it is just a measure of energy in the battery based on the EPA efficiency of the car, a fixed number. There are many other tools available to help with measuring driving conditions and actual range but RM is just an energy gauge.
Click to expand...

Great, another GOM based on someone else's driving conditions!
Click to expand...

Just divide it by the EPA miles/kWh and multiply it by your own. Easy to do in your head, right? :lol:
 
lorenfb said:
dgpcolorado said:
it is just a measure of energy in the battery based on the EPA efficiency of the car, a fixed number. There are many other tools available to help with measuring driving conditions and actual range but RM is just an energy gauge.
Click to expand...
Great, another GOM based on someone else's driving conditions!
Click to expand...
No, the "rated miles" display is not what I'd call a GOM ("guess-o-meter"), because it doesn't attempt to guess how much energy your particular driving conditions are going to require.

If you are an average driver in normal conditions, EPA rated miles tend to be pretty close to actual usage. It's a great yardstick.

We know Tesla drivers who aren't techies (my wife being one of them), and they find EPA rated miles and the nav-integrated range predictions to be quite easy to understand and useful.
 

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