Second car, owning vs renting vs borrowing vs avoiding.

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IssacZachary

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 13, 2017
Messages
881
Location
Gunnison, CO, USA
I thought I'd open a discussion about the advantages and disadvantages, the pros and cons, the blessings and curses, of either:
  1. Owning just a Leaf (or other similar affordable limited range EV) and avoiding any other type of vehicle.
  2. Owning a Leaf (or similar) and owning an ICEV of some sort.
  3. Owning a Leaf (or similar) and renting an ICEV from time to time.
  4. Owning a Leaf (or similar) and borrowing and ICEV from time to time.
  5. And don't forget public transportation options.
I'd like the discussion to be focused on such advantages and disadvantages that may help other EVer's decide what would be best. You can state what you've done, if it's worked out for you like you planned, if you would have done it differently, etc. Remember too that there is no universal answer.

I've seen a limited few here on My Nissan Leaf say they're happy with only owning a Leaf and nothing else. Personally I'd love to go that route; one car, an electric car, that needs no oil changes, sparkplugs or engine filter changes, and be able to drive that car for several years, perhaps over a decade, until it's range is so puny I have to either get the battery replaced or change it in for a different car. For long trips I'd love to just go from charging station to charging station, a minor setback compared to all the advantages the EV can give me.

But then reality sets in. Last weekend I drove 379.6 miles on a single round trip with my wife. Overall the trip went great. We visited friends, took a nap or two and got the important things done. But a down charging station, bad planning and terrible 30mph winds with 50mph gusts did have their effect. I found out that if I plan to charge next to a shopping mall, it's best to do that when the shopping mall is open, and that traveling at night at 20°F, with the heater off, going 40mph up hill for 70 miles, between 12:00AM and 2:00AM and still barely getting home with 5% on the battery is a bit uncomfortable.

I think there are things I could have done that could have made the trip better. Better planning is definitely one of them. In fact, if I had just went to the mall earlier in the day to charge and had stayed a night longer in one of the towns the whole trip would have been much more pleasant. As far as some of these distances between charging stations, perhaps trying to solicit charging stations in between or seeing if campgrounds with 240V outlets would let me charge after getting my EVSE upgraded would make things less risky. Maybe I could even build a range extender of some sort for these occasional trips.

But between negotiating with businesses and building range extenders, why not just get an ICE car? I'm married and have a family. If I were single, sure, I wouldn't mind freezing as I barely make it over treacherous mountain passes in freezing weather and perhaps even not make it and have to pull out a 2000W generator and sit on the side of the mountain pass for two or three hours in the middle of the night. But the wife doesn't think that that sounds like any fun. So what about a "normal" ICE car?

The problem here is I see several disadvantages here too. I do own an ICE actually. Two of them to be exact. But both are older than the hills. One (1985 VW Golf diesel) has about 500,000 miles on it and looks like it survived WW2. The other (1972 VW Super Beetle) I've been working on it for the past 3 or 4 years and it still doesn't run. So if I'm going to drive ICE then I'd probably be better off getting something newer. But paying even $5,000 for a ten-year-old car, plus registration, insurance, maintenance, etc. could really add up in the end. I figure I pay around $40 per month for just the minimum insurance on an extra car.

So what about renting? I actually did rent a car just a few weekends ago. It was my first time. It cost about $40 with taxes and all, not including the fuel, and that's really the cheapest I can get in town with my AAA discount and all. I can easily see renting about two days per month (mainly because the rental companies aren't open 24 hours per day, so for one day I have to rent the car from the day before.) So that would total up to about a little less than $1,000 per year. But no maintenance, no depreciation, no nothing! In the end renting could actually be cheaper than owning! Plus with renting I can rent what I need when I need it. If I need to rent a pickup or a minivan, I can. If I need to rent in another town after I get off an airplane, I can without still be paying for an ICE car at home that I'm not using.

Anyhow, I'm thinking of simply having the Leaf as my only car and renting when need be until I can get the VW Super Beetle running and get at least the upholstery finished, if not the A/C system too. Then I'll use that until I sell it, if I can get at least $9,000 for it, which might be a long while. And if I do sell it, I'd then have to decide between renting from then on for those once-in-a-month occasions, getting another newer car, or falling for the temptation of building some sort of range extender for the Leaf.
 
IssacZachary said:
"Anyhow, I'm thinking of simply having the Leaf as my only car and renting when need be."
If I didn't own a second ICE sports car for long trips, that's exactly what I'd do... After a few times you'd get used to the routine, and as you mention, rent the vehicle that best suited your needs...
 
We own 2 Leafs and a '07 Prius. My wife drives the Prius for her 16 mile RT commute, I drive one Leaf for my work which varies from 3 miles RT to generally 16 miles up to 60 miles RT. I have work place charging, she wouldn't. My daughter drives our '12SL for her 4 mile RT commute and around town for shopping and such.
Once home from work if I'm home the Leaf is our vehicle of choice for after work errands or even weekends when my wife occasionally has to work. This works pretty well as the Prius averages MPG in the mid to upper 30s(short trips) and we use the Prius for our several yearly trips which which vary from 500 to 3000 miles. When not taking trips we fill the Prius probably once/month. Were thinking of replacing her Prius which is 10 years old with something new and strongly thinking of a Prius Prime which should make her 16 mile RT commute in all EV so we'd only need gas for mostly our trips and maybe if the ICE has to run every so often or to make sure the gas doesn't get stale.
I've thought of getting a 3rd Leaf used for her and get rid of the Prius but it would still leave our several long mileage trips without a vehicle. As it is I only have to change the oil on the Prius yearly and thats more due to age and not mileage. Luckly the Prius has been very reliable and the only maintenance items has been a new 12v battery at about 8 years old and tires at 40k for the originals and I'd hope 60-80k for the replacements. I have replaced the air filter once and had to replace the rear hatch release button, so maintenance has been minimal.
If I were single I'd probably want a PHEV that had at least a 40 mile EV range, but can't stand the Volt(WAY to cramped) otherwise that would be an ideal car. I don't think a Leaf would work as my only car, for one thing trips to friends cabins are in the 120-300 mile range(RT) and I'd rather not hassle with ICE rental. I suppose a Bolt would do the trips or with destination charging but again it's really too small for my preference, both people and cargo wise.

No I can't see ever being just EV but can see keeping ICE use down to just long trips and no gas for daily work commutes.
 
A PHEV, like a Volt, would likely work great for most families (except the size of course.) Sometimes I wonder if that's what I should have bought. But on the other hand I can't help looking at it like two cars in one. Like owning an EV and an ICEV except you only have to pay insurance on one vehicle, but two driver's can't drive the two cars at the same time. It seemed to me that in any hybrid there's twice the things that can go wrong.

Plus for me 40 miles just isn't enough. Usually, not only do I max out the Leaf, but then I plug it in for another couple of hours and then hit the road again on a daily basis! I'm afraid a PHEV would end up becoming an ICEV for me. But that's just me.

If I were to get a small car with an ICE, I kind of like the Mitsubishi Mirage. A Leaf and a Mirage might work well. If one breaks down the other will keep going, unlike just a Volt.

What else goes through my mind is a large passenger van alongside the Leaf. That way when I need to haul people or cargo or go long distances I can, whereas my daily driver, the Leaf, wouldn't get the terrible fuel mileage the van does.

Or a Leaf and a Honda PCX 150 that gets 100mpg or some other motorcycle. That would be enough for my wife and me on long trips if I can get enough heat from electric clothing. Also there's the idea of hooking up a motorcycle to a Leaf with the rear wheel on the ground and use it as a pusher trailer.
 
IssacZachary said:
What else goes through my mind is a large passenger van alongside the Leaf. That way when I need to haul people or cargo or go long distances I can, whereas my daily driver, the Leaf, wouldn't get the terrible fuel mileage the van does.

Since you don't mind older cars, perhaps a Chevy Astro? Large interior volume for passengers, can swallow a 4x8 sheet of plywood with the rear seats removed. AWD was an option, and would be useful where you live. It can even tow the Leaf if necessary.

Bad sides, besides mileage, are a bouncy ride and poor crash performance. Then again, if you're willing to put your family in a '72 Beetle, an Astro's crash test performance wouldn't be a concern for you.
 
IssacZachary said:
A PHEV, like a Volt, would likely work great for most families (except the size of course.) Sometimes I wonder if that's what I should have bought. But on the other hand I can't help looking at it like two cars in one. Like owning an EV and an ICEV except you only have to pay insurance on one vehicle, but two driver's can't drive the two cars at the same time. It seemed to me that in any hybrid there's twice the things that can go wrong.

Plus for me 40 miles just isn't enough. Usually, not only do I max out the Leaf, but then I plug it in for another couple of hours and then hit the road again on a daily basis! I'm afraid a PHEV would end up becoming an ICEV for me. But that's just me. <snip>
I'm glad you mentioned a PHEV, because it really is the obvious choice for most people who want to own just one car that can do everything. The Volt2's credited with a 53 mile AER, and the (much more expensive) i3 with 97 mile AER, so the question is what's it worth to you to be pure? And then there's the Chrysler Pacifica PHEV van (31 mile AER IIRR).
 
RonDawg said:
IssacZachary said:
What else goes through my mind is a large passenger van alongside the Leaf. That way when I need to haul people or cargo or go long distances I can, whereas my daily driver, the Leaf, wouldn't get the terrible fuel mileage the van does.

Since you don't mind older cars, perhaps a Chevy Astro? Large interior volume for passengers, can swallow a 4x8 sheet of plywood with the rear seats removed. AWD was an option, and would be useful where you live. It can even tow the Leaf if necessary.

Bad sides, besides mileage, are a bouncy ride and poor crash performance. Then again, if you're willing to put your family in a '72 Beetle, an Astro's crash test performance wouldn't be a concern for you.
Actually I traded in a Chevy Astro for the Leaf. It was a horrible vehicle. I spent 5,000 in parts and labor in one year and still had engine and transmission problems. I'm not making this up! However, I do have regrets getting rid of it. After all the work I and money I put into it I was probably close to getting all the bugs worked out of it. And even if I wasn't, at least it ran and was driveable. I think the one thing that turned me off was that I couldn't find a 5,000lb hitch for it. U-Haul wouldn't let me tow the Leaf on their dolly with the Astro without at least a 5,000lb hitch. I know they had made them before for the Astro, but finding one nowadays is impossible. Couple that and only having space for 3 vehicles, I had to chose one vehicle to make room for the Leaf and the Astro got chosen.

I am concerned with safety, which is part of the reason I bought the Leaf. I'm just not the kind of guy who's willing to fork out the dough for a $40,000 SUV in the name of safety. It goes against my "work to live, not live to work" philosophy. Right now I have a modest job as a janitor that pays the bills and affords me time to be with my family and to do what I feel is important. Sure, I could spend more time trying to make more money to have the latest in safety technology. But if it's at the cost of being with my wife I might as well as tell her to go find another guy because I can't afford the safest car and safest house in the safest neighborhood and also be able to spend time with her. If the opportunity arises to but a safer long-distance car without breaking the bank I'll jump on it.
 
GRA said:
IssacZachary said:
A PHEV, like a Volt, would likely work great for most families (except the size of course.) Sometimes I wonder if that's what I should have bought. But on the other hand I can't help looking at it like two cars in one. Like owning an EV and an ICEV except you only have to pay insurance on one vehicle, but two driver's can't drive the two cars at the same time. It seemed to me that in any hybrid there's twice the things that can go wrong.

Plus for me 40 miles just isn't enough. Usually, not only do I max out the Leaf, but then I plug it in for another couple of hours and then hit the road again on a daily basis! I'm afraid a PHEV would end up becoming an ICEV for me. But that's just me. <snip>
I'm glad you mentioned a PHEV, because it really is the obvious choice for most people who want to own just one car that can do everything. The Volt2's credited with a 53 mile AER, and the (much more expensive) i3 with 97 mile AER, so the question is what's it worth to you to be pure? And then there's the Chrysler Pacifica PHEV van (31 mile AER IIRR).
Everything's a trade off. A BMW i3 for how much?! vs. a used Nissan Leaf with an occasional rental. For me, the latter fits my budget better. But if I had the money... :mrgreen:
 
We have a LEAF and just bought a Prius Prime so the Honda Fit and Prius Vagon will be sold. These two cars are a practical, relatively inexpensive, and environmentally conscious pair. I paid $7,000 for the LEAF and $17,000 before state TTL for the Prime as a Colorado resident.

And yet we still find situations where the local car rental place solves a problem, like requiring a truck, or two long-distance cars, or an extended trip when we don't want to leave a car at the airport. OP is being smart and frugal by integrating car rental into his personal transport armada.
 
The two things the Leaf lacks are cargo space and range. I'd suggest a cargo-oriented minivan or Prius V as the second vehicle, to fix both shortcomings without wasting gas. My "other vehicle" is a Prius PHEV, aka "PIP."

Sagebrush slipped in ahead of my post. It appears we agree.
 
LeftieBiker said:
Sagebrush slipped in ahead of my post. It appears we agree.
Sure -- a LEAF and a Prius Vagon are a very nice pair too. I decided to replace the Vagon with a Prime because most of our daily miles are not in the LEAF and the Prime is a pretty capable hauler for the the tasks I require. The exceptions are handled by a truck rental, although I'd be lying if I said I don't miss the Prius Vagon hitch. It was not used often, but it was *so* handy to have available. So far anyway, the hitch available for the Prime only allows limited towing via a 5/4 inch adapter.
 
SageBrush said:
So far anyway, the hitch available for the Prime only allows limited towing via a 5/4 inch adapter.
Hopefully someone will come out with a 2" receiver for the Prime, I mean if we can get one for our Leaf..... :lol:
 
jjeff said:
SageBrush said:
So far anyway, the hitch available for the Prime only allows limited towing via a 5/4 inch adapter.
Hopefully someone will come out with a 2" receiver for the Prime, I mean if we can get one for our Leaf..... :lol:
Good news -- I found out the Curt has approved the 2016 Prius hitch for the Prime. The mount is a 2" ball and the car is rated for at least 1600 #. Installation is a bit of a chore because the bumper has to be removed. Curt says 90 minutes for DIY'ers but I figure longer for me ;-)
 
IssacZachary said:
RonDawg said:
Since you don't mind older cars, perhaps a Chevy Astro? Large interior volume for passengers, can swallow a 4x8 sheet of plywood with the rear seats removed. AWD was an option, and would be useful where you live. It can even tow the Leaf if necessary.

Bad sides, besides mileage, are a bouncy ride and poor crash performance. Then again, if you're willing to put your family in a '72 Beetle, an Astro's crash test performance wouldn't be a concern for you.
Actually I traded in a Chevy Astro for the Leaf. It was a horrible vehicle. I spent 5,000 in parts and labor in one year and still had engine and transmission problems. I'm not making this up! However, I do have regrets getting rid of it. After all the work I and money I put into it I was probably close to getting all the bugs worked out of it. And even if I wasn't, at least it ran and was driveable. I think the one thing that turned me off was that I couldn't find a 5,000lb hitch for it. U-Haul wouldn't let me tow the Leaf on their dolly with the Astro without at least a 5,000lb hitch. I know they had made them before for the Astro, but finding one nowadays is impossible.

Those U-Haul guys, never willing to go for it. Now, here's a couple who knows how to have an adventure (and you have to read the story, they didn't settle for one measly 4X8 piece of plywood either):
http://www.swapmeetdave.com/Humor/Workshop/Overload.htm

IssacZachary said:
I'm married and have a family. If I were single, sure, I wouldn't mind freezing as I barely make it over treacherous mountain passes in freezing weather and perhaps even not make it and have to pull out a 2000W generator and sit on the side of the mountain pass for two or three hours in the middle of the night. But the wife doesn't think that that sounds like any fun.
(just had to add the bold!)

And what is with these women? I haven't specifically asked, but you know, I don't think my wife would think that sounds like fun either. :eek:
 
sub3marathonman said:
Those U-Haul guys, never willing to go for it. Now, here's a couple who knows how to have an adventure (and you have to read the story, they didn't settle for one measly 4X8 piece of plywood either):
http://www.swapmeetdave.com/Humor/Workshop/Overload.htm
I got excited when I noticed the 6,000lb reading on the hitch the Astro had. But the U-Haul wanted to know if that was "dead weight" or "load compensating". I went back and looked, and the dead weight rating was actually only 2,000lbs. There are 5,000lb dead weight hitches that were made for the Astro, but after trying to find one for about a year I have up. Now that I don't have the Astro more I've found one!
https://www.etrailer.com/Trailer-Hitch/Chevrolet/Astro/2001/37136.html?vehicleid=200149758
Now I really regret getting rid of the Astro! But it was a love and hate relationship anyway. Maybe it was for the better that I got rid of it.

I like your link. I once made two trips from Home Depot (70 miles away) just because I didn't want to haul more than what the max payload rating allowed.
sub3marathonman said:
(just had to add the bold!)

And what is with these women? I haven't specifically asked, but you know, I don't think my wife would think that sounds like fun either. :eek:

I know right?! Husband says, "Honey! I got a solar panel and put it on a trailer. We can drive the Leaf anywhere and see the whole country! We can sell the house and live in a tent and work washing dishes a truck stops for food and insurance money! It'll be..."

Husband notices look on wife's face.

Husband- "Now would you like us to go look at minivans, or SUV's for your vehicle that you'll park in your own space in the garage."
 
So I'm coming to a few conclusions here.

  • If you would hardly use a second vehicle then renting will likely be much cheaper, granted you have a car rental place close enough to where you live. This seems to fit me.
  • Another option would be stick with one car, but it wouldn't be a Leaf. A PHEV would let you do some or most of your driving off of electricity. But until prices come down and PHEV's get bigger it seems to me that you could still get more bang for buck by owning a used pure EV and renting or owning a used pure EV and some other cheap used ICEV.
  • Of course there's nothing wrong with owning another vehicle for those once-in-a-while occasions.
    • That vehicle could be a sports car or classic car that you're trying to keep in mint shape. Usually that's the kind of car someone would only use on a weekend trip anyway.
    • It could be a large fuel guzzler like a pickup, SUV or full/midsize van. It wouldn't have to be new either. The advantage of a cheap old truck or van is that you could do lots of things you can't do in the Leaf, including towing the Leaf. And since it would only be used on occasion the horrible fuel mileage wouldn't be much of a concern.
    • If you do drive long distances often then it makes more sense to get a fuel sipping ICE of some sort. But for me, I don't see the advantage. My Golf gets 50mpg and so I haven't put fuel in it since November. I could get 15mpg in it and wouldn't be spending very much more since I hardly use it.
  • However, if you have the kind of family that needs to use more than one car on a daily basis then you have to chose between an EV and an ICEV of some sort or two EV's. And if you own two EV's then your back in the same boat of either renting or borrowing or looking for that cheap other ICEV.
 
Insurance and registration adds mightily to the cost owning any second car... perhaps there is an offset benefit of the utility of having the vehicle on standby...

Any car rental has to likely include collision and liability insurance either from a primary policy, a credit card policy (some offer that when their card is used for payment). Love that grab and go of a car rental. Truck, passenger van, compact...or even a splurge on an exotic...

One option not mentioned is owning no car at all... Which is more and more common in urban areas...where hourly short term car rental and ride sharing is available.
 
JimSouCal said:
Insurance and registration adds mightily to the cost owning any second car...

And also depreciation, along with in general rising prices for vehicles.

Long ago I bought a 1985 Honda Rebel 250, with less than 1000 miles on it, for less than $800. I rode it for almost 20 years, pushing 100K miles with it. Only maintenance was oil changes, new tires, set the valves, and replace the chain/sprockets, and the spark plugs. I could do everything myself. It had the original clutch. :shock: The air cooled engine was never apart. In the beginning I could get over 100 mpg, towards the end it was in the low 50s, so it was needing a bit of care. I'll have to look, but I think I sold it for $400. So $400 for almost 20 years and almost 100K miles of driving.

(And no, no wife on the back "seat" of the Rebel. Anybody who has rode on the back "seat" of the Rebel will know what I mean.)

That motorcycle saved thousands and thousands of dollars, and to an extent was a key aspect of getting ahead when I was MUCH younger.

I worked at a lab, and the new girl came to me and said she wanted to save up, as she had heard I was doing. I told her, look at everybody here, what is the first thing they do? They buy a new car. So a few weeks later she drove up to the lab, in a new car. Another guy one time proudly announced that his credit card debt had dipped under $1K. I'm thinking, at 20% to 30% interest, you'll never get ahead.
 
When I was young I owned a bicycle, nothing more. I rode that bike until I got married. I even went to my fiancée's house on my bicycle to go on dates! She actually never had owned a car.

So I bought a Toyota pickup and got married. I do believe that the biggest waste of money we've had is on cars. Normally we spend good money on a used car with a lot of miles. Next thing you know it needs $7,000 in parts and labor. So we chuck that and get another one. Then the sane thing happens. I bought the Leaf to kind of put an end to that.
 
Planning ahead I'm trying first of all put long distance trip dates together. That way if I rent I might get more done with fewer days.

But in August I got to spend a week in Denver. I'll be taking along two family members, both women. One of them lives near Saguache, so that makes the trip about 300 miles one way. I'm trying to decide whether to take the Leaf or to rent.

  • Renting is going to cost a little over $300. But on top of that fuel prices. If the rental gets 30mpg that's 10 gallons one way. Say I use 10 gallons in Denver. That's 30 gallons, or about $90 in fuel.
  • To take the Leaf I'd need have a way of charging in Saguache which is 70 miles away. According to Plug Share there's a 240V Nema 50 plug which means I'll need at either upgrade my EVSE or get one with a proper plug which is going to cost slightly over $300. Then there's the there and back trips and two women to account for. Basically it's an hour and a half to Saguache. Charge for 4 hours. Ten minutes to the relative's home, about 50 minutes to Salida. Charge for 3 hours, then an hour or more to a camp ground (4hours) or hotel in Cañon City (15hours). Then an hour or so to Colorado Springs. Then hit a CHAdeMO (20-30minutes, Price?) Then drive an hour to the edge of Denver, hit another CHAdeMO and then have enough to get to the part of Denver we're headed. So in 18 or more hours I'll have made it. :|
  • The Bus is another option. About $100 in tickets for all three of us one way. Plus about $2, if I remember correctly, per trip on the city bus. I'm counting at least 16 trips, times 3 people, times $2 is $96. So around $300 on the buses.
  • Then there's owning a second car. I'm figuring I'll be spending about $900 to $1,000 this year in rentals. That's less than $100 per month. A second car costs me $40 per month in insurance. So maintenance, repairs, registration and depreciation must all come into about $50 per month to compete with rentals. Plus I have to consider that rentals are generally new, and a used car that only costs $600 in a year besides fuel and insurance is likely non-existent or very old.
  • I could also mention trading the Leaf in for something with an ICE but let's not go there.

So it can be definitely cheaper to just take the Leaf. But it would take a lot more time, and might lose its financial advantage if I end up staying at hotels.
 
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