18K for $8500 or 55K for $7500?

As far as I know it was me who first discovered the chemistry change in 2013 builds. Someone was posting auction data in the Fall of 2016, IIRC, that happened to list capacity bars and build months, among other data. I noticed that the only 2013 Leafs with two or more bars gone at that time were listed as having build dates January through March of that year. There were also few if any 12 bar cars listed for those build months. I found it very interesting, and some of us started to ask those reporting capacity loss (or no capacity loss) what their car's build date was. So far there have only been two exceptions - early 2013 Leafs with all 12 bars. Both were in or from cool climates. I also don't believe we've see any built later than 3/13 with fewer than 11 bars, although that is bound to change this Summer. I'd consider the evidence anecdotal at best, were it not so consistent. Since we know that the pack case design changed when production was moved to Smyrna for the slightly-refreshed 2013 Leaf, it can be deduced (although Nissan has never, as Cwerdna wrote, produced a scrap of information) that it was the battery chemistry that changed, rather than the physical layout of the packs.

natkra90 said:

Stoaty's model is outdated, but I would think that the 2013 would be better which would make the model a worst-case scenario. Thanks for the heads-up about Mark Larsen. I'll disregard his stuff. Do you really think the 2013 will depreciate 5% per year?

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If you're talking about degradation of 5%/year, I haven't thought enough about it to be able to give you a correct answer. It's DEFINITELY going to vary depending on climate and I don't know yours at all other than it's very cold in winter. I can't even assign a % for my own climate.

(Unfortunately, I don't think they're in the sheet) I do believe I recall seeing some '13s built 4/2013 or later and '14 Leafs in hot climates that became 4 bar losers within the 5 year/60K capacity warranty and got their free replacements. Contrast that with the '13 at http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=490376#p490376 (1 CB down at 89K miles, 2 bars down at 116K miles).

natkra90 said:

If that's the case, I might consider getting a 500e in stead.

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Careful. Make sure you have FCA dealers that are willing to service it. 500e was a CA only car and then (IIRC) became CA and OR. One person who leased a 500e at my work had trouble returning hers at end of lease due to a bunch of Fiat dealers closing down. Some of other dealers were reluctant/not willing to take her lease return. She said she had to get Chrysler involved.

I heard of a similar issue lease return prob w/another former 500e driver at my work, but the summary came from another coworker.

FCA CEO wasn't too enthusiastic about selling/leasing the 500e: http://www.reuters.com/article/chrsyelr-ceo-evs-idUSL1N0O71MS20140521.

LeftieBiker said:

As far as I know it was me who first discovered the chemistry change in 2013 builds. Someone was posting auction data in the Fall of 2016, IIRC, that happened to list capacity bars and build months, among other data. I noticed that the only 2013 Leafs with two or more bars gone at that time were listed as having build dates January through March of that year. There were also few if any 12 bar cars listed for those build months. I found it very interesting, and some of us started to ask those reporting capacity loss (or no capacity loss) what their car's build date was.

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Some folks in the Seattle Leaf Facebook group were also pointing this out. I was unconvinced, for awhile. Now I'm totally convinced.

LeftieBiker said:

I also don't believe we've see any built later than 3/13 with fewer than 11 bars, although that is bound to change this Summer.

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I'm pretty sure there have been some hot climate 4/2013+ '13 and '14 Leafs that have lost 4 capacity bars. I'll have to try to find them.

Ok, found 1 and it's apparently in the wiki (http://www.electricvehiclewiki.com/Real_World_Battery_Capacity_Loss#four_bars),
http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=473995#p473995 - in Phoenix, no surprise

elec7ric said:

I got my new 2013 SL (manufactured 5/2013 ) on 9/30/2013. Lost my first bar 5/2015, second bar 9/2015, third bar 5/2016 and forth bar 8/23/2016 (31,400 miles). First 21 months mostly charged L1/L2 to 80% (home and work). My drive was 55 miles round trip with about 75% highway. As capacity started to go away, I had to charge more often to 100%, however, I tried my best to keep it fully charged as little as possible (extreme Phoenix temperatures).

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LeftieBiker said:

As far as I know it was me who first discovered the chemistry change in 2013 builds. Someone was posting auction data in the Fall of 2016, IIRC, that happened to list capacity bars and build months, among other data. I noticed that the only 2013 Leafs with two or more bars gone at that time were listed as having build dates January through March of that year. There were also few if any 12 bar cars listed for those build months. I found it very interesting, and some of us started to ask those reporting capacity loss (or no capacity loss) what their car's build date was. So far there have only been two exceptions - early 2013 Leafs with all 12 bars. Both were in or from cool climates. I also don't believe we've see any built later than 3/13 with fewer than 11 bars, although that is bound to change this Summer. I'd consider the evidence anecdotal at best, were it not so consistent. Since we know that the pack case design changed when production was moved to Smyrna for the slightly-refreshed 2013 Leaf, it can be deduced (although Nissan has never, as Cwerdna wrote, produced a scrap of information) that it was the battery chemistry that changed, rather than the physical layout of the packs.

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That's a good sign, and a good catch. I hope that means I can get at least 4-5 years out of the vehicle.

cwerdna said:

Careful. Make sure you have FCA dealers that are willing to service it. 500e was a CA only car and then (IIRC) became CA and OR. One person who leased a 500e at my work had trouble returning hers at end of lease due to a bunch of Fiat dealers closing down. Some of other dealers were reluctant/not willing to take her lease return. She said she had to get Chrysler involved.

I heard of a similar issue lease return prob w/another former 500e driver at my work, but the summary came from another coworker.

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I'll have to call around to see if a local dealer will service it. There's 5 in Chicagoland, so hopefully if I wanted to go that route, at least 1 would be able to service it. Apparently, the 500e doesn't suffer from the same kind of capacity loss due to its thermal management system for the battery. The Leaf is my preferred choice, but it ultimately comes down to value for me.

I'm pretty sure there have been some hot climate 4/2013+ '13 and '14 Leafs that have lost 4 capacity bars. I'll have to try to find them.

Ok, found 1 and it's apparently in the wiki (http://www.electricvehiclewiki.com/Real ... #four_bars),
viewtopic.php?p=473995#p473995 - in Phoenix, no surprise

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I actually had something about "excepting places like Arizona" in that post, and in editing it managed to lose it. Since even the "Lizard pack" doesn't seem to resist that kind of heat I wouldn't expect the "pre-Lizard" packs of later 2013 and 2014 to manage it either. One thing I'm still wondering is just how different the Lizard pack chemistry is from the ones in our cars - if at all...

OP: 5% degradation a year is meant to cover a broad range of ownership experiences. If you know that you will baby the car when driving, keep it in the shade in the summer, and avoid charging routines known to accelerate battery aging, you are *probably* safe in presuming a slower rate of aging.

To be frank, your OP suggested limited funds and in that context I encouraged you to be conservative in your estimates and not take on risk and uncertainty you do not want. I realize that you want an EV and I wish you the best, but getting saddled with debt and a car that cannot meet your driving needs in a few short years -- EV or not -- sucks.

SageBrush said:

OP: 5% degradation a year is meant to cover a broad range of ownership experiences. If you know that you will baby the car when driving, keep it in the shade in the summer, and avoid charging routines known to accelerate battery aging, you are *probably* safe in presuming a slower rate of aging.

To be frank, your OP suggested limited funds and in that context I encouraged you to be conservative in your estimates and not take on risk and uncertainty you do not want. I realize that you want an EV and I wish you the best, but getting saddled with debt and a car that cannot meet your driving needs in a few short years -- EV or not -- sucks.

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I understand there are risks involved. Worst case scenario, if it lasts three years, I won't be over my head, and will be in the same position as I would have been leasing. I like the potential to be able to make this last 5 years. Having said that, do you think the 500e would last longer?

If you can live with the interior space limitations, the 500e has a temp controlled (coolant heat/cool) 24 kWh pack with similar torque and kw output motor, but being lighter it's probably a little quicker. I would think battery degradation in more extreme climates would be much less of a problem.

Definitely worth a test drive, if you can find one (think they were only sold in CA)

FYI, 500e forum here:

http://www.myfiat500e.com/forum/viewforum.php?f=2

alozzy said:

If you can live with the interior space limitations, the 500e has a temp controlled (coolant heat/cool) 24 kWh pack with similar torque and kw output motor, but being lighter it's probably a little quicker. I would think battery degradation in more extreme climates would be much less of a problem.

Definitely worth a test drive, if you can find one (think they were only sold in CA)

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There's actually as many used 500e available
at that price range as there are used Leafs in Chicagoland. Not sure how that happened, but I'm game. I'm going to test drive both tomorrow.

I guess they started selling the 500e across the US then. I'm Canadian, it was never sold here AFAIK

FYI, before you buy a 500e, I would call around dealers in Chicago to see if anyone has the equipment and is certified to work specifically on 500es. For liability reasons, most dealers won't work on vehicles if they don't have a certified tech to do the work.

alozzy said:

FYI, before you buy a 500e, I would call around dealers in Chicago to see if anyone has the equipment and is certified to work specifically on 500es. For liability reasons, most dealers won't work on vehicles if they don't have a certified tech to do the work.

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There's one about 45 miles from me that will service it with an L2 charger nearby. Its an inconvenience, but doable.

Nice to have options

natkra90 said:

SageBrush said:

OP: 5% degradation a year is meant to cover a broad range of ownership experiences. If you know that you will baby the car when driving, keep it in the shade in the summer, and avoid charging routines known to accelerate battery aging, you are *probably* safe in presuming a slower rate of aging.

To be frank, your OP suggested limited funds and in that context I encouraged you to be conservative in your estimates and not take on risk and uncertainty you do not want. I realize that you want an EV and I wish you the best, but getting saddled with debt and a car that cannot meet your driving needs in a few short years -- EV or not -- sucks.

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I understand there are risks involved. Worst case scenario, if it lasts three years, I won't be over my head, and will be in the same position as I would have been leasing. I like the potential to be able to make this last 5 years. Having said that, do you think the 500e would last longer?

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The difference between three and five years could be a starting difference of 10% in SoC. That was the original point I wanted to convey. Are you willing to drive with minimal heating in the winter ? That would extend the LEAF's useful life considerably for your use case.

SageBrush said:

The difference between three and five years could be a starting difference of 10% is SoC. That was the original point I wanted to convey. Are you willing to drive with minimal heating in the winter ? That would extend the LEAF's useful life considerably for your use case.

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My old car didn't have a working heater, so I'm already used to driving with no heat. I'd probably just use heated seats/heated steering. I probably won't pull the trigger on the 55k leaf unless I get at least 90% Soh or they offer me a deal I can't turn down.

natkra90 said:

SageBrush said:

The difference between three and five years could be a starting difference of 10% is SoC. That was the original point I wanted to convey. Are you willing to drive with minimal heating in the winter ? That would extend the LEAF's useful life considerably for your use case.

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My old car didn't have a working heater, so I'm already used to driving with no heat. I'd probably just use heated seats/heated steering. I probably won't pull the trigger on the 55k leaf unless I get at least 90% Soh or they offer me a deal I can't turn down.

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I'm not sure that all models have heated steering and seats. That is something to be sure of before you buy. I live in Colorado and rely on the heat seating and gloves. It works OK for us although our feet are cold and uncomfortable after an hour drive. You also have to think about defroster use which is a huge energy drain.

Is the car parked outside ?
Can you pre-heat the car with at least 3.3 kW electricity before a drive ?
Do you have to run the defroster while driving to keep the glass clear ? I actually ventilate the car with a small flow of cold outside air in the winter but that of course makes the cabin cooler and may not even work for your climate.

SageBrush said:

I'm not sure that all models have heated steering and seats. That is something to be sure of before you buy. I live in Colorado and rely on the heat seating and gloves. It works OK for us although our feet are cold and uncomfortable after an hour drive. You also have to think about defroster use which is a huge energy drain. Is the car parked outside ? Do you have to run the defroster while driving to keep the glass clear ? I actually ventilate the car with a small flow of cold outside air in the winter but that of course makes the cabin cooler and may not even work for your climate.

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The car would be parked in the garage overnight, and outside when at work. I used to just roll down the front passenger window a little to keep the windshield from fogging. I could resort to that again if necessary. I'll have to double check the heated steering tomorrow when I test drive it.

The heated seats and steering wheel were optional in 2011, but became standard some time in 2012 and are definitely standard on all 2013 models/trims. The 2013 cars also have better heaters, including the S - that heater still uses lots of power but it heats fast and you can turn it off and use just the blower as needed. (I still would not recommend an S in any cold climate except for very short trip use only.)