Aussie
Posts: 99
Joined: Wed Oct 28, 2015 10:30 am
Location: Dallas

Re: Lizard Pack Holding Up

Mon Apr 17, 2017 11:03 pm

IBeLeaf2 wrote:
Aussie wrote:
IBeLeaf2 wrote:I wasn't doing much wishful thinking, just trying to determine why my battery is doing so well compared to others who have lost bars.

Are the others you are comparing yourself to also in Maine? With an average high of 79 in July (highest month) I don't expect you would have any significant battery degradation issues, regardless of whether your battery is original or 'lizard' chemistry.

I don't recall a summer that hasn't had days in the 90's. Maine is a big state, Presque Isle still has 4' of snow on the ground, Kittery has daffodils up. But don't tell anyone it, isn't tourist season and the restaurants aren't open yet. ;)

If it is true that heat is the only reason batteries degrade, than let's spread that fact around. I see too many posts about battery degradation and not enough indicating it is only heat related. I've had people say to me that they won't buy an EV because the "car/battery wears out to fast" and "they aren't suited for the Maine climate"

I've also read on My Nissan Leaf things like "never charge to 100%", "never leave it at 100%", "charge just before you need it, not when you are done using it", "quick chargers are bad for the battery" and other warnings. I do all of those bad things and still the battery is doing well.
Are we giving EV's a bad name? Or justifiably warning potential buyers to avoid the pitfalls.

Or perhaps there have been other upgrades to battery chemistry before the "lizard" that explain why I get away with breaking the rules. Although my car is not expose to temps over 100F, that is due to where I live not because I avoid them.

I understand we are more apt to hear about the problems than the positives. But if it is only heat that causes the problems let's say so and stop worrying potential EV buyers who live in the more habitable sections of the country. :D

There are other contributors who live in the cooler climes. Seems likely LeftieBiker could chime in here.


Days in the 90's are different to weeks where the lows are pushing the 80's. Yes there are many contributing factors to battery capacity degradation. Based on the evidence available it appears that by far and away the largest contributor is sustained high pack temperatures. All the factors you mentioned are also contributors. Where practical these factors can be avoided, but I for one am willing to charge to 100% as needed, to QC if required etc. I won't do it unnecessarily, but I also need my car to perform its function and am prepared to 'pay with Amp Hours' if that's part of the tradeoff.

There are plenty of leafs running around in the colder states, Canada, northern Europe etc on original chemistry with 11 and 12 bars. An easy way to look at this is to jump on autotrader and have a look at dash photos of what's for sale. Compare that to a lot of us down South looking down the barrel of lost bars on our second battery. Autotrader have plenty of 3-5 bar losers in Dallas (I keep my eye on the market).

There is a lot of misinformation out there (not just with EV's!). Best we can do is try and understand it, and counteract with facts.

Lancpudn
Posts: 65
Joined: Fri Jan 27, 2017 2:17 pm
Delivery Date: 27 Jan 2017
Location: Lancashire UK

Re: Lizard Pack Holding Up

Sun Apr 23, 2017 2:34 am

I watch Autotrader/ebay etc over here in the UK regular & out of all the Leafs for sale I've only ever seen two with one bar lost :o

In my neck o the woods in northern England we only see low to mid 70'sF temps in the height of Summer, in fact when it gets around 75F the local news station warn of heatwave conditions :lol:

cwerdna
Gold Member
Posts: 7202
Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2011 4:31 pm
Delivery Date: 28 Jul 2013
Location: SF Bay Area, CA

Re: Lizard Pack Holding Up

Sun Apr 23, 2017 3:24 am

Lancpudn wrote:I watch Autotrader/ebay etc over here in the UK regular & out of all the Leafs for sale I've only ever seen two with one bar lost :o

In my neck o the woods in northern England we only see low to mid 70'sF temps in the height of Summer, in fact when it gets around 75F the local news station warn of heatwave conditions :lol:

Wow. That's pretty ideal for the Leaf. Even the Seattle area can sometimes get significantly hotter than 75 F in the summer.

viewtopic.php?p=307296#p307296 are some fairly extreme Phoenix area temps. I've posted about Vegas temps at viewtopic.php?p=467218#p467218, as well. I've been there 3x during the summer.

'13 blue Leaf SV w/premium package (owned)
'13 blue Leaf SV w/QC + LED & premium packages (lease over, car returned)
'06 Prius

Lancpudn
Posts: 65
Joined: Fri Jan 27, 2017 2:17 pm
Delivery Date: 27 Jan 2017
Location: Lancashire UK

Re: Lizard Pack Holding Up

Sun Apr 23, 2017 3:37 am

cwerdna wrote:
Lancpudn wrote:I watch Autotrader/ebay etc over here in the UK regular & out of all the Leafs for sale I've only ever seen two with one bar lost :o

In my neck o the woods in northern England we only see low to mid 70'sF temps in the height of Summer, in fact when it gets around 75F the local news station warn of heatwave conditions :lol:

Wow. That's pretty ideal for the Leaf. Even the Seattle area can sometimes get significantly hotter than 75 F in the summer.

viewtopic.php?p=307296#p307296 are some fairly extreme Phoenix area temps. I've posted about Vegas temps at viewtopic.php?p=467218#p467218, as well. I've been there 3x during the summer.


WOW! That's hot :o being a home loving boy I've never experienced those kind of temps in my life. I can see what you mean now with heat effecting the battery pack.

Dooglas
Posts: 176
Joined: Thu Apr 03, 2014 10:08 pm
Delivery Date: 04 Jan 2017
Leaf Number: 314779
Location: Oregon City, OR

Re: Lizard Pack Holding Up

Sun Apr 23, 2017 10:22 am

cwerdna wrote:Even the Seattle area can sometimes get significantly hotter than 75 F in the summer.

Well, sure. I live in the Portland area and summer days in the 90s are hardly all that rare. On the other hand, the temperature typically drops into the 60s, or even the high 50s at night in the summer. That is why most houses don't have air conditioning here. It is also why EV batteries are seldom exposed to sustained high temperatures here. My 2013 had 12 bars when I turned it in earlier this year. And no, I did not avoid charging to 100%. Whenever the battery was down significantly (say 70%), the car was charged overnight back to 100%. It usually sat in the driveway at full charge. I didn't QC the car too often, but I did not avoid a QC when needed. Why destroy much of the utility of the vehicle by a series of artificial restrictions on its use? If an EV is really not suitable for your location or application, then...........
2013 Leaf SV - lease ended, 2016 Leaf S30

cwerdna
Gold Member
Posts: 7202
Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2011 4:31 pm
Delivery Date: 28 Jul 2013
Location: SF Bay Area, CA

Re: Lizard Pack Holding Up

Mon May 01, 2017 5:19 pm

Lancpudn wrote:
cwerdna wrote:
Lancpudn wrote:I watch Autotrader/ebay etc over here in the UK regular & out of all the Leafs for sale I've only ever seen two with one bar lost :o

In my neck o the woods in northern England we only see low to mid 70'sF temps in the height of Summer, in fact when it gets around 75F the local news station warn of heatwave conditions :lol:

Wow. That's pretty ideal for the Leaf. Even the Seattle area can sometimes get significantly hotter than 75 F in the summer.

viewtopic.php?p=307296#p307296 are some fairly extreme Phoenix area temps. I've posted about Vegas temps at viewtopic.php?p=467218#p467218, as well. I've been there 3x during the summer.


WOW! That's hot :o being a home loving boy I've never experienced those kind of temps in my life. I can see what you mean now with heat effecting the battery pack.

In my part of the SF Bay Area (a hotter part, but not the hottest), it's wasn't that hot until today. The forecast today for the town my work is in depending on the weather app (and their data provider) is 88 F or 86 F. One app says it's currently 88 F and the other 84 F.

My home zip code is similar temps.

Forecast for Wednesday (5/3) for this town is a high of 92 and 95 F for the other. This is unusually hot for this time of year. But, by Friday, it'll die down. Forecast of high of 69 or 72 F for that day. I guess you can also see why in my area there have been a few folks who lost 4 capacity bars on '11 Leafs within the 5 year/60K capacity warranty.

Visit Las Vegas (aka Lost Wages) in the summer sometime. :P

'13 blue Leaf SV w/premium package (owned)
'13 blue Leaf SV w/QC + LED & premium packages (lease over, car returned)
'06 Prius

User avatar
Stanton
Forum Supporter
Posts: 1945
Joined: Thu Feb 03, 2011 10:56 am
Delivery Date: 01 Sep 2011
Leaf Number: 7458
Location: Plano, TX
Contact: Website Twitter

Re: Lizard Pack Holding Up

Fri May 19, 2017 7:02 am

I'm definitely seeing behavior with my lizard pack that I never saw with my original pack. My AHr dropped consistently for many months (down to about 56+)...and then started to go back up (to 57+). Had I continued on the same degradation trajectory--not to mention the summer heat--I would have probably dropped a bar by now. I would be surprised if I made it through this summer without that happening, but for now my AHr has certainly stabilized.
2011 Blue Ocean SV w/floor mats & window tint
12v LiFePO4 battery & FIAMM 74100 horns
Wet Okole seat covers (front)
Tor's low-power heater mod
2013 sun visor
3G modem upgrade
L2 EVSE Upgrade
Battery Pack replaced (Rev E) @51 months and 41k miles

DaveinOlyWA
Gold Member
Posts: 12246
Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2010 7:43 pm
Delivery Date: 10 Nov 2016
Leaf Number: 314199
Location: Olympia, WA
Contact: Website

Re: Lizard Pack Holding Up

Fri May 19, 2017 7:30 pm

Stanton wrote:I'm definitely seeing behavior with my lizard pack that I never saw with my original pack. My AHr dropped consistently for many months (down to about 56+)...and then started to go back up (to 57+). Had I continued on the same degradation trajectory--not to mention the summer heat--I would have probably dropped a bar by now. I would be surprised if I made it through this summer without that happening, but for now my AHr has certainly stabilized.


what is time and mileage on replacement pack?
2011 SL; 44,598 miles. 2013 S; 44,840 miles.2016 S30 (build 10/2016)"low water marks" 26,100.2 miles.363GID Ahr 79.55Hx95.35%kwh28.1QCs227,L2's 237
My Blog; http://daveinolywa.blogspot.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

User avatar
Stanton
Forum Supporter
Posts: 1945
Joined: Thu Feb 03, 2011 10:56 am
Delivery Date: 01 Sep 2011
Leaf Number: 7458
Location: Plano, TX
Contact: Website Twitter

Re: Lizard Pack Holding Up

Sat May 20, 2017 6:44 am

DaveinOlyWA wrote:
Stanton wrote:I'm definitely seeing behavior with my lizard pack that I never saw with my original pack. My AHr dropped consistently for many months (down to about 56+)...and then started to go back up (to 57+). Had I continued on the same degradation trajectory--not to mention the summer heat--I would have probably dropped a bar by now. I would be surprised if I made it through this summer without that happening, but for now my AHr has certainly stabilized.


what is time and mileage on replacement pack?


I'm currently @68 months and 55k miles, so based on my sig stats, the new pack is @17 months and 14k miles.
The answer to your next question is: I lost the first bar on my original pack @22 months and 20k miles.
2011 Blue Ocean SV w/floor mats & window tint
12v LiFePO4 battery & FIAMM 74100 horns
Wet Okole seat covers (front)
Tor's low-power heater mod
2013 sun visor
3G modem upgrade
L2 EVSE Upgrade
Battery Pack replaced (Rev E) @51 months and 41k miles

arnis
Posts: 743
Joined: Sat Jan 23, 2016 3:21 pm
Delivery Date: 23 Jul 2014
Leaf Number: 015896
Location: Estonia, Europe

Re: Lizard Pack Holding Up

Sat May 20, 2017 8:48 am

Once again I'm witnessing interesting behavior of HX and SOH values.
My vehicle is almost 3 years old. This winter, for 5 months, SOH and Hx
values were frozen, literally, near 98 99% values. Those values NEVER change
if battery doesn't heat up to at least 15C (4 temperature bars).
This year we went from snowstorms, hail, subfreezing awesome weather to
+23C (73F), absolutely sunny, in like, 2-3 weeks. As soon as pack got up to 15C
SOH and Hx values started to drop (they do that every spring). And for now,
30-35 days later after winter Hx/SOH "frozen" period, I've dropped form 99.03%
Hx and 99% SOH down to 91,08% Hx and 91% SOH.

With absolutely no change in range. Actually range is way better due to more efficient
chemistry (I stopped using heater at +5C). Went up from 120km to around 150km, same
usage scenarios, 50% at speed 100km/h, all else urban.
Both scenarios no HVAC draw, same tires, different pack temperature (5C vs 25C).

HX SOH values will start going up again in fall, and freeze for winter.
PS! If I DC charge, both values will go up for short period. This is known behavior.
As far as I understand, values creep up slowly. And the closer the battery is to the 4
temperature bar lower limit (+15C), the higher those numbers go.


Therefore those values are not good for capacity estimation.
Short range EVs <30kWh -- Medium range: 30-60kWh -- Long range: >60kWh
Charging: Trickle <3kW -- Normal 3-22kW -- Fast 50-100kW -- Supercharging >100kW

Return to “General / Main Owners Forum”