2016-2017 model year 30 kWh bar losers and capacity losses

My Nissan Leaf Forum

Help Support My Nissan Leaf Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.
Scaramanga said:
So your strategy would be to drive it & charge every night up to 100% to see if the SOH comes up?

No, no need. You want to do this if you need that extra range but if you don't, you are better off doing exactly what you are doing. Use the near middle of your SOC. Run it from 40 to 90% or whatever is best for you.
 
But you do need charge it to 100% on a regular basis (not every day) to keep the cells balanced. If your morning drive leaves you at your destination with 80% or less where the car will sit all day, then it is not a problem to charge to 100% daily. I would suggest using a charge timer so that it finishes about 15 to 30 minutes prior to departure (this may need adjusted if you are on TOU rates).
 
baustin said:
But you do need charge it to 100% on a regular basis (not every day) to keep the cells balanced. If your morning drive leaves you at your destination with 80% or less where the car will sit all day, then it is not a problem to charge to 100% daily. I would suggest using a charge timer so that it finishes about 15 to 30 minutes prior to departure (this may need adjusted if you are on TOU rates).
If LEAFspy is to be trusted, my car bucks your advice. I think we charge to 100% perhaps once a month but the max/min cell delta is below 10 mv and often 7-8 mv. And incidentally, despite a very easy driving cycle and gentle climate the battery continues to shed SOH and Ahr by the month.

All quite perplexing.
 
SageBrush said:
baustin said:
But you do need charge it to 100% on a regular basis (not every day) to keep the cells balanced. If your morning drive leaves you at your destination with 80% or less where the car will sit all day, then it is not a problem to charge to 100% daily. I would suggest using a charge timer so that it finishes about 15 to 30 minutes prior to departure (this may need adjusted if you are on TOU rates).
If LEAFspy is to be trusted, my car bucks your advice. I think we charge to 100% perhaps once a month but the max/min cell delta is below 10 mv and often 7-8 mv. And incidentally, despite a very easy driving cycle and gentle climate the battery continues to shed SOH and Ahr by the month.

All quite perplexing.

Maybe you could try charging to 100% once a week, and see if it helps any.
 
baustin said:
SageBrush said:
baustin said:
But you do need charge it to 100% on a regular basis (not every day) to keep the cells balanced. If your morning drive leaves you at your destination with 80% or less where the car will sit all day, then it is not a problem to charge to 100% daily. I would suggest using a charge timer so that it finishes about 15 to 30 minutes prior to departure (this may need adjusted if you are on TOU rates).
If LEAFspy is to be trusted, my car bucks your advice. I think we charge to 100% perhaps once a month but the max/min cell delta is below 10 mv and often 7-8 mv. And incidentally, despite a very easy driving cycle and gentle climate the battery continues to shed SOH and Ahr by the month.

All quite perplexing.

Maybe you could try charging to 100% once a week, and see if it helps any.
Now sounds like a good time, before summer. Thanks -- I will.
 
baustin said:
SageBrush said:
baustin said:
But you do need charge it to 100% on a regular basis (not every day) to keep the cells balanced. If your morning drive leaves you at your destination with 80% or less where the car will sit all day, then it is not a problem to charge to 100% daily. I would suggest using a charge timer so that it finishes about 15 to 30 minutes prior to departure (this may need adjusted if you are on TOU rates).
If LEAFspy is to be trusted, my car bucks your advice. I think we charge to 100% perhaps once a month but the max/min cell delta is below 10 mv and often 7-8 mv. And incidentally, despite a very easy driving cycle and gentle climate the battery continues to shed SOH and Ahr by the month.

All quite perplexing.

Maybe you could try charging to 100% once a week, and see if it helps any.

It may be for me that driving such short distances at low speeds and charging infrequently has something to do with it. I honestly haven't had the car long enough to get to know it well, so I'm still learning. It's weird btw to be someone who has hand built Volvo engines and transmissions to feel like a newb again, but thankfully there's plenty of material to read about the car and 6 model years of collective experience to research. I've been reading the 2014 service manual that's available online to get myself familiar, but there is still work for me to do on how the battery behaves.
 
Just as a data point, we have two 2016 SV's, both purchased at the end of May 2016. One was manufactured 10/15, and the other 1/16. Both have followed the same trend with SOH are are about at 91 and 92% respectively (the cars read 98% and 96% at delivery and dropped to about 92% by October).

These cars also spent the winter over the last six months in "cool storage" in the Pacific Northwest while we wintered in Phoenix. Both LEAFs were left at 60% SOC, unplugged (although 12V de-sulfating battery minders were connected). Upon return, we found the LEAFs had only lost 1% in SOC. Interestingly, SOH readings on each are the same as before storage and holding more or less steady. We'll see what happens this summer.

Edit: I should add we generally follow the recommended charging advice in the manual. Primarily that means avoiding frequent topping off and avoiding letting the car sit for extended times at full/empty charge. We tried to implement a Stop-at-80% using a Raspberry pi and the OpenEVSE network interface by detecting the start of taper, but that ended up stopping the charge at 97%, which didn't really seem worth bothering with. The 2016 manual still recommends using Long-Life Mode (80%), even though the option had been deleted from the US models.

One last data point: my car at 92% SOH recently consumed 27,283 Wh from VLBW to full as measured at the 40A EVSE. The last time I did that test was 7/7/16, and consumption was 28,441Wh when SOH was 95%. Interesting. One variable is environmental temperature of mid 55F vs. mid 70+F explaining some of that.
 
Another data point for a brand new car. Two weeks ago I leased a 2017 SV here in San Diego, CA. Mfr date 2/2017, bought on 5/14/2017. So probably sat for 3 months at 100% charge I fear because Nissan removed the 80% charge option. Here are some stats:

Upon delivery it had 40 miles on the odo, battery at 80% SOC after a 30 mile drive from the dealer's storage lot. Leaf Spy showed 98% SOH, 93 Hx, 1QC and 6 L1/L2 charges. Wasn't real happy about the 98% SOH, was really expecting to see 100% but I took it.

Drove 40 miles around town, stop and go and SOH went down to 97% in one day. Did a L1 charge to 100% and drove another 90 miles over the next few days, SOH went down to 96%, Hx 92.

Fully charged from 27% to 100% using L1 for 22 hrs (open EVSE L2 charger is on order), After driving another 30 or so miles over the next few days SOH now 95%, Hx 90.8. GIDs with full (actually 97%) charge is only 347. Whisky, Tango, Foxtrot....over. Seems my battery is taking a rocket ship ride to the basement.

This is on a car with less than 300 miles, mild weather, driving easy. Is it just me or do you agree this seems bad for a brand new battery?

I've seen 3 yr old Leafs with 20k mi with far better stats. I'm an EE and I used to design battery chargers for a living and I know how to take care of batteries and was highly anticipating taking great care of this car. Thinking of going back to Nissan soon instead of waiting a year for the first checkup to show them these numbers to document that it's the battery and not me or my driving.

Any other new 30 kWh owners with a similar stats? Is this typical?
 
SageBrush said:
rmorgansd said:
Is it just me or do you agree this seems bad for a brand new battery?
Seems bad

#1 thing to check both new and used; time on the lot. It is critical. My 2016 lives in cooler weather (except lately) but I have cooked the pack past 120º probably 30 times or so and my batt stats are as good as the day I got it. SOH can be affected by lack of use. I picked mine up at 100% SOH but Hx was 99%

I also did an experiment 3 weeks after picking mine up where I drove it barely at all. This pushed all the numbers down except kwh available (which I only read at full charge which I did only twice in 2 weeks)
 
Scaramanga said:
2016 SL took delivery in December last year, 2400 miles, SOH 93%. Lame.

Don't feel too bad. 2016 SL took delivery in Dec 2016, 6100 miles SOH 85% Hx 82.7 AHr 68.38. I am not far from losing the first bar. Very Lame.
 
#1 thing to check both new and used; time on the lot.

I believe you're correct. When these cars sit on the storage lot they probably plug them into charge them up to 100% because they removed the 80% option. And there they sit week after week, month after month at 100%. Precisely what will prematurely wear out a battery and what Nissan tells you to not do.

Would be interesting to see a list of vehicles comparing manufacturing date, in-service date and battery SOH. From what I've been reading on other posts it seems that every month sitting on the lot equals 2% to 3% permanent loss of SOH.

In retrospect I would have demanded to go to the storage lot with the salesman to pick out my own car based on the manufacturing date at a minimum, preferably with Leaf spy in hand also..

There ought to be dealer charge mode that keeps the car less than 80% while it is sitting on the lot. Anyone from Nissan listening to this?
 
Morgansd,

Your car was probably sitting on the lot in San Diego for only 2 months since there is shipping time involved. I suspect your Leaf Spy numbers will improve with harder use and faster charging. The numbers on my 2015 drop whenever I drive it gently and charge it slowly (low rate L2 or L1). The numbers improve after highway driving with deep discharge and charging at 6 kW L2. The numbers improve more with QC.
 
We have two 2016 SVs. One was manufactured October 2015, and the other was March 2016. We bought them at the end of May 2016. Both seem to be tracking about the same SOH and have around 4000 miles on the odometers, each. SOH varies from 92% to 95% depending on driving cycles, ambient temperature, etc. Neither one was at 100% charge when we test drove them - more like 30 to 40%. That was Magic Nissan (now Campbell) in Everett, WA. They may well know that you don't store LEAFs at full charge.

Both cars recently had their official battery tests done with flying colors. Interestingly, the metric for "extended storage at high state of charge" (paraphrasing from reports I have seen here) is absent on the 2016. There are only three metrics now listed:

> Frequent charging when battery state of charge is already high.
> Frequent use of Quick charging.
> Too much electric consumption while driving.

When I asked the Nissan EV Help Line about long term storage, I was told to charge the car to 100%, then unplug it. After three months, drive it around a bit, recharge it, and store again for up to three months.

This all conflicts with group-think knowledge here and even in the owner's manual that came with the car, which suggests to use the 80% long-life charge mode before storing the car, and as well not to leave the car at 100% charge for extended time. Of course, the 80% mode is gone in the USA market cars.

Perhaps Nissan is now less concerned with 100% indicated SOC than they used to be. I don't know. In any case, we stored our LEAFs at 60% SOC for the winter with acceptable results. SOH and all picked up right where it left off.
 
Nissan can't suggest that you not charge to 100%, after removing the option to do so. Instead, they no longer admit that it's better to charge to 80%, because that's easiest and cheapest for them. If Leaf 2 doesn't have a 'hilltop reserve mode' or something to that effect, I won't order one.
 
From my experience with Li-Ion they don't tend to self-recover a lot. A little here and there but you can't regain capacity similar to when you cycle an old Ni-Cad or Ni-MH. In fact, one of the worst things you can do to Li-Ion is deep discharge then charge to full. You'll get the longest life by keeping it between about 40 to 80%, although we all recognize that doesn't work well in an EV where you want to go on a long trip.

Very interesting report from Battery University on the Nissan Leaf battery where they were studying early capacity loss. They disassembled some batteries and found the problem. They found what I surmised an an earlier post.....that sitting around at full charge prematurely ages the battery. A quote from the report:

An interesting discovery was made by NASA in that Li-ion dwelling above 4.10V/cell tend to decompose due to electrolyte oxidation on the cathode

Entire report can be found here: http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/bu_808b_what_causes_li_ion_to_die
 
gshepherd said:
We have two 2016 SVs. One was manufactured October 2015, and the other was March 2016. We bought them at the end of May 2016. Both seem to be tracking about the same SOH and have around 4000 miles on the odometers, each. SOH varies from 92% to 95% depending on driving cycles, ambient temperature, etc. Neither one was at 100% charge when we test drove them - more like 30 to 40%. That was Magic Nissan (now Campbell) in Everett, WA. They may well know that you don't store LEAFs at full charge.

Both cars recently had their official battery tests done with flying colors. Interestingly, the metric for "extended storage at high state of charge" (paraphrasing from reports I have seen here) is absent on the 2016. There are only three metrics now listed:

> Frequent charging when battery state of charge is already high.
> Frequent use of Quick charging.
> Too much electric consumption while driving.

When I asked the Nissan EV Help Line about long term storage, I was told to charge the car to 100%, then unplug it. After three months, drive it around a bit, recharge it, and store again for up to three months.

This all conflicts with group-think knowledge here and even in the owner's manual that came with the car, which suggests to use the 80% long-life charge mode before storing the car, and as well not to leave the car at 100% charge for extended time. Of course, the 80% mode is gone in the USA market cars.

Perhaps Nissan is now less concerned with 100% indicated SOC than they used to be. I don't know. In any case, we stored our LEAFs at 60% SOC for the winter with acceptable results. SOH and all picked up right where it left off.

Ray, the sales manager at Magic knows how LEAFs should be handled as he was #1 in sales for a time (might still be) and plus the cars would have sat on the lot during the coldest part of the year. You cannot discount radiant heat. I have blog (should be published today or tomorrow) illustrating the "value" of full Sun even on mild days.

I drove 83 miles past a half dozen dealers to get my LEAF from him. He is the best.
 
rmorgansd said:
From my experience with Li-Ion they don't tend to self-recover a lot. A little here and there but you can't regain capacity similar to when you cycle an old Ni-Cad or Ni-MH. In fact, one of the worst things you can do to Li-Ion is deep discharge then charge to full. You'll get the longest life by keeping it between about 40 to 80%, although we all recognize that doesn't work well in an EV where you want to go on a long trip.

Very interesting report from Battery University on the Nissan Leaf battery where they were studying early capacity loss. They disassembled some batteries and found the problem. They found what I surmised an an earlier post.....that sitting around at full charge prematurely ages the battery. A quote from the report:

An interesting discovery was made by NASA in that Li-ion dwelling above 4.10V/cell tend to decompose due to electrolyte oxidation on the cathode

Entire report can be found here: http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/bu_808b_what_causes_li_ion_to_die

It is not recovery you are seeing with improved numbers. Its better top end pack balancing and less than stellar Nissan instrumentation. The numbers drop immediately when the QCs stop or the usage drops back down to normal
 
Back
Top