The Future of Public L2 Chargers

My Nissan Leaf Forum

Help Support My Nissan Leaf Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.

PianoAl

Well-known member
Joined
May 16, 2016
Messages
239
I've wondered whether the growth of public L2 chargers will be fast enough to handle the growth in EVs.

But, check my logic here:

L2 chargers are used by car owners like me who drive just far enough in a day trip that they can't get home without a charge.

They are rarely used by people on a long trip (those people will use an L3 charger)

If, in a few years, most EVs will have ranges of over 200 miles, those higher-range EV owners will rarely use a public L2 charger.

Therefore, fewer public L2 chargers will be added by government and companies.

Make sense?
 
Why would anybody driving around WANT to charge at slow chargers if given the option of fast charging?

The whole concept of plug-in hybrids always has the option of burning gasoline. The only exception so far is the Mitsubishi Outlander plug-in hybrid, which has CHAdeMO DC fast charging.

Slow AC powered charging is great for places where people linger, not for "I need a charge now" type traveling:

1) hotels
2) shopping malls
3) airports
4) curbside parking (parking meter and place to plug-in)
5) at your house / apartment / condo / flat

Of course, the option of a D.C. fast charger should also be at all those places.

The use of slow and fast charging have different goals. Slow charging is cheap to install, and therefore will be around a LONG time.

DC fast charging is VERY expensive to install, and therefore will require real planning and business case.

Both will be around a long time.
 
] Both will be around a long time.[/quote said:
I agree. I will QC as a novelty or if I'm in a hurry to get someplace, but I prefer L2 charging in my own garage and out in town as a secondary option if I need a few miles topped up while I grab a cup of coffee. The expense and level of infrastructure required to install QC chargers is not something that the majority of businesses wanting to do the right thing and provide charging are going to take the plunge on.

I think there will be a mix for a while but, the Chevy Bolt is throwing a wrench in things in my view. They can use the same L2 infrastructure we do, but Nissan & GM have split the DCQC infrastructure. I've only seen one QC that had both Chademo & CCS, I'm not sure how widespread it is to have both.
 
The longest trip I did so far was 379.6 miles. The only charging stations along the way were L2. One was down and I almost didn't make it to the next one. Two legs of the trip were about 70 miles between chargers too. It would be great if there were a CHAdeMO at every gasoline station (or in every town with a gasoline station). But I'd be happy if there were just L2 stations in those places.
 
Scaramanga said:
I will QC as a novelty or if I'm in a hurry to get someplace

You do recognize that your "novelty" is other people's necessity? I'm currently driving 500 miles from San Diego to San Francisco in one of my 125 mile range EVs. I wouldn't waste 2 minutes at an J1772 charge station, unless I was sleeping in a comfortable hotel bed.

To be honest, I'm looking forward to the day when I consider 50kW chargers too slow to monkey with.

I think the 120kW Tesla Superchargers are tolerable. The mass market probably wants / needs faster.


I think there will be a mix for a while but, the Chevy Bolt is throwing a wrench in things in my view. They can use the same L2 infrastructure we do, but Nissan & GM have split the DCQC infrastructure. I've only seen one QC that had both Chademo & CCS, I'm not sure how widespread it is to have both.


The overwhelming majority of new public DC fast chargers have both plugs. It's not an issue anymore than gasoline and diesel at the same pump is an issue.

I have been driving a 240 mile EV for 65,000 and two years. I rely on DC fast charging even more than with an 80 mile range LEAF, since it would be rare to want to take such a car on a long journey.

240 miles is not throwing any wrenches in anything.
 
TonyWilliams said:
You do recognize that your "novelty" is other people's necessity?

Absolutely. We drive / commute very different ways, just like ICE car owners, and that's fine. I find DCQC a convenience and hardly use them unless I've forgotten to sufficiently L2 charge in my garage. I think there's room in the EV world for both of us, and to some degree when early adopters realize 2nd wave drivers like me aren't necessarily a threat to their charging needs, this charger debate will wane, and all manner of charging will be plentiful, but I'd rather not see Public L2 charging vanish, or even greatly diminish.
 
You do recognize that your "novelty" is other people's necessity?

By the same token many people rely on L-2 stations to extend their range enough to compensate for a degraded battery pack or to drive a little farther than the car's actual range. I regularly do this in Winter, shopping for 20-30 minutes while I pick up an extra 10-15% charge that gets me home with no worries.
 
TonyWilliams said:
Slow AC powered charging is great for places where people linger, not for "I need a charge now" type traveling:

1) hotels
2) shopping malls
3) airports
4) curbside parking (parking meter and place to plug-in)
5) at your house / apartment / condo / flat

You left out "where people work". Seems like there will be a demand for L2 charging at offices, factories, and other commercial centers for quite some time. The charging rate and infrastructure cost of L2 makes it particularly suitable for home and office.
 
PianoAl said:
I've wondered whether the growth of public L2 chargers will be fast enough to handle the growth in EVs.

But, check my logic here:

L2 chargers are used by car owners like me who drive just far enough in a day trip that they can't get home without a charge.

They are rarely used by people on a long trip (those people will use an L3 charger)

If, in a few years, most EVs will have ranges of over 200 miles, those higher-range EV owners will rarely use a public L2 charger.

Therefore, fewer public L2 chargers will be added by government and companies.

Make sense?
It makes perfect sense. I think it can be summed up in that our first generation affordable EV's are becoming obsolete.

At least that's the way it is in my situation. I'd love to use my Leaf as my only car. With an adequate charging infrastructure that could be done. But...
  • Like you said, on long trips it would be best to go from DCQC station to DCQC station.
    • Sadly where I live there are no DCQC stations anywhere nearby. My last 380 mile trip I did I had to do it off of both L2 and L1 charging the whole way!
  • Sure, when I make it to the nearest Super WalMart or Target or Home Depot 70 miles away I wouldn't mind L2 charging while I shop.
    • But what about from here to there? As it is now I have to creep along at 40mph and still get there with only 5% left! With the next generation of EV's not needing to charge after so few miles nobody's going to put a L2 charging station between here and there along a barren road just for me.
  • Where I live I've never gone to a charging station and had to wait for other EV's. They're always empty!
    • But for the same reason it seems that L2 charging station owner's aren't seeing the benefit. On my 380 mile trip I almost didn't make it do to a charging station that was down out in the middle of nowhere. It looks like it hadn't been used in months! Once the next generation EV's are all over these kinds of Charging stations aren't going to get the use they should to make them feasible.
 
Scaramanga said:
IssacZachary said:
Sadly where I live there are no DCQC stations anywhere nearby.

What part of then world do you live in & do you think that DCQC will remain an urban phenomenon?

Gunnison, CO, USA. And by DCQC I meant CHAdeMO stations. There is a DCQC Tesla station in Grand Junction about 130 miles northwest (but that doesn't do me any good).

  • The closest CHAdeMO station is east of here in Pueblo, 160 miles away. Then there are some along I-25 north of there up into the Denver area.
  • The next closest is north of here in Aspen, 175 miles away if I can make it to the L2 station in Paonia, 87 miles away. Otherwise it's about 250 miles away the long way around.
  • Going south the closest CHAdeMO is in Santa Fe, NM, 260 miles away.
  • If I want to head west the closest CHAdeMO is in Provo, UT, about 370 miles away.

As of now, the J1772 stations are still a novelty. Many of the ones that were installed around here were installed last year. And so far these were from county efforts. I can foresee L2 stations popping up sometime in the future in Delta and Ouray. But from there it looks a bit bleak to me. So far I've counted 3 Leafs (mine and 2 others) in my town and one other Leaf in the county, which makes 4 total. I've also seen one Volt. The other 3 Leafs are S's without CHAdeMO. Looks like I have the only CHAdeMO port on a vehicle in the county! One of the Leaf owners (actually she leases) said she was going to lease a Bolt next when her Leaf lease expires. The other two Leaf owners, like me, bought their Leafs to keep.

So far it looks like the EV market here is very slow growing, and therefore the charging infrastructure is too. Now it's time for businesses to take a look at putting in J1772 stations. So far there is one business that did over in Salida and another in Buena Vista. There's also a Hotel in Grand Junction that did. But I'm a bit pessimistic that others will catch on soon. Colorado is trying to get more DCQC stations along it's interstate highways. But I'm sure we'll still be behind other places like California for several years to come.
 
That's terrible, if it makes you feel any better, fully half of the DCQC chargers in Tacoma are broken on any given day. We've got a ways to go to make them as common as gas pumps. You just L2 charge in the garage?
 
Where I live (near Eureka, CA) there are no fast chargers. My Leaf oonly has L2 capability.
 
Within a 90 miles radius of my home there is only 1 DCQC and it's $7 per session. Heck, there aren't even that many L2's around here. A few parking garages here and there have them. Hoping this will change shortly.
 
There are many sub-groups of EV drivers:

Urban/Rural/Suburban
Commuters/Middle distance/Long distance
Affluent/Money constrained/Money tight
Single car/multiple car households

That is 54 sub-groups already

It is interesting e.g. to read IssacZachary as a sub-group, but it is best not to extrapolate or generalize.

L2 destination charging and L3 road tripping covers the lion's share of use cases.
OP: Tesla has the best data so far of how a group of people in the US with 200+ mile EVs equipped with L3 use their cars. Overall it works out to 10% miles by L3 and 90% charged up at home. Their use of public L2 chargers is minimal.

I would also keep in mind that this discussion has so far been US and 208/240v centric regarding L2 but that is not a given. As one example, Germany has an extensive L2 public charging network based on 400v and 22 kW that is apparently working well and supporting local EV adoption.
 
SageBrush said:
There are many sub-groups of EV drivers:

Urban/Rural/Suburban
Commuters/Middle distance/Long distance
Affluent/Money constrained/Money tight
Single car/multiple car households

That's an interesting way to think about EV drivers, they can't all be painted with a single brush. I drive pretty short distances mostly with a twice a month 70 mile round trip commute to the office, but L2 charging is plentiful around here, L3 is spotty but I don't need it.
 
Back
Top