Volkswagen Group Massive Emissions Fraud Scheme

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LTLFTcomposite said:
Is that true, just like that all emissions regulations are gone?

Not yet. Will take years to roll back regulations. Follow the laws carefully, and when hauled into court (likely in this case) and you might prevail.

To be fair to Trump, I've not yet heard about rolling back NOx regulations.
 
DarthPuppy said:
With Trump's rolling back the federal emission regulations, are all those VW diesels that VW has been buying back now perfectly legal to own and drive here in the U.S.? Of course, not in California, but elsewhere in the U.S., these might no longer be an issue from a legal point. From an environmental point, they are still a disaster. But VW was likely to ship them to overseas markets with less stringent rules, so the solution was really to relocate the polluter to another area, which isn't really a solution.

I'd be perfectly happy if all diesel engines were removed from the United States and then transported to foreign countries, as it would make the air in the U.S. cleaner, even if it didn't improve the situation for the world as a whole. My concerns are prioritized based on:
1. The air my family and I breathe.
2. The air that those in my community breathe.
3. The air that those in my state breathe.
4. The air that those in my country breathe.
5. The air that those in the rest of the world breathe.

If I can make #1-4 better by making #5 worse, I'll do it. However, if I can make #1-5 better all at once, I'll do that instead. Yes, I want to help everyone, but I want to help those around me more.
 
Via ABG:
VW gets EPA approval to sell backlog of fixed 2015 diesels
About 12,000 are currently in dealer inventory.
http://www.autoblog.com/2017/03/30/vw-gets-epa-approval-to-sell-backlog-of-fixed-2015-diesels/

Volkswagen AG said the US Environmental Protection Agency has approved its request to sell up to 67,000 diesel vehicles from the 2015 model year, including about 12,000 currently in dealer inventory with approved emissions modifications.

The vehicles in inventory were held when the company issued a stop sale in September 2015. . . .

The EPA approved a fix for specific Volkswagen diesel models in January. They include the 2015 Beetle, Golf, Golf SportWagen, Jetta, Passat, and Audi A3 equipped with the 2.0-liter TDI engine. The approved modifications include a software update, with plans for a particulate filter, additional catalysts, and another software update to come when those parts become available next year. . . .
 
VW looks to natural gas as it pivots away from diesel
Autoweek said:
In the wake of the ongoing Volkswagen diesel scandal, VW is exploring options outside diesel that could help it lower emissions and improve fleet fuel economy. One potential avenue is cars that run on natural gas, and VW has been talking with both Exxon Mobil and Gazprom in hopes they back the idea.
The article goes on to say:
Autoweek said:
VW plans to roll out four electric vehicles in the next few years, as the automaker has made progress in reducing EV production costs. However, both compressed natural gas (CNG) and electric propulsion are needed to lower its fleet-wide carbon dioxide (CO2) emissions while distancing the automaker from its diesel scandal.
Like H2, natural gas is not an option around here due to the lack of filling stations.
 
Durandal said:
DarthPuppy said:
With Trump's rolling back the federal emission regulations, are all those VW diesels that VW has been buying back now perfectly legal to own and drive here in the U.S.? Of course, not in California, but elsewhere in the U.S., these might no longer be an issue from a legal point. From an environmental point, they are still a disaster. But VW was likely to ship them to overseas markets with less stringent rules, so the solution was really to relocate the polluter to another area, which isn't really a solution.

I'd be perfectly happy if all diesel engines were removed from the United States and then transported to foreign countries, as it would make the air in the U.S. cleaner, even if it didn't improve the situation for the world as a whole. My concerns are prioritized based on:
1. The air my family and I breathe.
2. The air that those in my community breathe.
3. The air that those in my state breathe.
4. The air that those in my country breathe.
5. The air that those in the rest of the world breathe.

If I can make #1-4 better by making #5 worse, I'll do it. However, if I can make #1-5 better all at once, I'll do that instead. Yes, I want to help everyone, but I want to help those around me more.

And in so doing, we would have to completely change our entire product shipment infrastructure since most of it is hauled around by diesel trucks ;) Would be nice though.
 
tattoogunman said:
And in so doing, we would have to completely change our entire product shipment infrastructure since most of it is hauled around by diesel trucks ;) Would be nice though.
Thankfully Elon Musk and Tesla are working on that one! :D
 
Durandal said:
I'd be perfectly happy if all diesel engines were removed from the United States and then transported to foreign countries, as it would make the air in the U.S. cleaner, even if it didn't improve the situation for the world as a whole. My concerns are prioritized based on:
1. The air my family and I breathe.
2. The air that those in my community breathe.
3. The air that those in my state breathe.
4. The air that those in my country breathe.
5. The air that those in the rest of the world breathe.

If I can make #1-4 better by making #5 worse, I'll do it. However, if I can make #1-5 better all at once, I'll do that instead. Yes, I want to help everyone, but I want to help those around me more.
Is there any proof that just because it's a diesel it automatically produces more emissions than gasoline? Diesels used to be hailed for producing less emissions naturally than gasoline engines do. The problem is that it's easier to clean dirty exhaust than cleaner exhaust. For an example, the "2 stroke" Mazda RX-7 got steller emissions out of the tail pipe, but the exhaust before the catalytic converter was about equivalent to a mobile evaporating oil spill.

Yes, what VW did was nasty wrong. And getting NOx levels lower in a diesel engine is more difficult than in a gasoline engine. But that doesn't mean it can't be done. If we go all gasoline you do realize there's a potential for actually increasing emissions, not decreasing them, at least for certain types of transportation.
 
Is there any proof that just because it's a diesel it automatically produces more emissions than gasoline? Diesels used to be hailed for producing less emissions naturally than gasoline engines do.

That hailing was mostly done by diesel advocates, I think. The problem is more particulates in the exhaust, and the fact that it's hard to just make lots of particulate matter vanish into thin air, so to speak. The "burnoff" approach that VW used to use was maybe the best way, although urea injection also works. You just have to keep refilling a urea tank. And no, urine doesn't work just as well. ;-)
 
LeftieBiker said:
That hailing was mostly done by diesel advocates, I think. The problem is more particulates in the exhaust, and the fact that it's hard to just make lots of particulate matter vanish into thin air, so to speak. The "burnoff" approach that VW used to use was maybe the best way, although urea injection also works. You just have to keep refilling a urea tank. And no, urine doesn't work just as well. ;-)

I'm sure that the diesel advocates were all over it (maybe that includes me). But I also remember seeing those figures in some rather reliable sources (e.g. World Book Encyclopedia).

Also not that the urea injection isn't for particulate matter. Now these are the big two emissions that diesels are known for, particulate matter and oxides of nitrogen.

Particulate matter wasn't regulated for years even after regulations for stricter for HC, CO and NOx emissions. I guess they didn't see it as poisonous as the other emissions. However once they started regulating PM (around 2010 for commercial diesels, at least in Colorado) they were mostly done away with by simply adding on an active or passive particulate filter and incineration system. Active particulate incineration means periodically spraying fuel into the particulate filter to heat it up and incinerate the PM before the filter clogs. On long haul diesels the particulate filter receives enough heat from the engine running all day long to incinerate the PM. With such systems PM is no longer a problem, and as far so know wasn't any part of the reason VW got into trouble.

The main problem with modern diesel engines is no longer the PM but the NOx emissions. That's where urea injection comes in.

It used to be that diesels naturally got better NOx emissions than gasoline engines. This is because gasoline had to burn close to its stoichiometric air/fuel ratio (many times going lean as carburetors weren't precise), which is quite hot, whereas diesels normally run far from stoichiometric in a super lean phase running lots of cool air through the cylinders which keeps overall combustion temps cool. The excess of oxygen also has always made diesels produce far less CO and HC emissions. But then the EGR system was invented for the gasoline engine along with precise fuel injection. Such systems have allowed NOx emissions to be largely reduced in gasoline engines. But they don't work a well on diesel engines because diesel engines don't run well close to stoichiometric nor do they run well with EGR.

In conclusion, the main emissions hurdle for modern diesels isn't the typical black cloud of particulate matter. It's the difficult to control NOx emissions. But that doesn't mean that it can't be done, and I hope the scientists can get this figured out for small diesel engines.

I get upwards of 55mpg going 75mph in my 1985 VW diesel, sometimes over 60mpg if I'm careful with the pedal. I kind of think something must be wrong with technology in the sense that very few cars can attain that kind of fuel mileage today.
 
Reuters:
U.S. judge approves Volkswagen 3.0 liter, Bosch diesel settlements
http://www.reuters.com/article/us-volkswagen-emissions-idUSKBN1871WO

A federal judge on Thursday granted final approval on an agreement for Volkswagen AG (VOWG_p.DE) to pay at least $1.22 billion to fix or buy back 80,000 3.0-liter vehicles in the United States linked to the German automaker's diesel emissions cheating scandal.

At a court hearing in San Francisco, U.S. District Judge Charles Breyer also said he was granting final approval to German auto supplier Robert Bosch GmbH's separate settlement, under which it will pay $327.5 million to U.S. VW diesel owners for its role in developing the engines.

Breyer said he was overruling all objections and called the settlements, in which Bosch admitted to no wrongdoing, "fair, reasonable and adequate. . . ."

Owners of 3.0 liter vehicles who opt for fixes will get compensation of between $7,000 and $16,000 from Volkswagen if emissions remedies are approved in a timely fashion.

Volkswagen, the best-selling automaker worldwide in 2016, could be forced to pay up to $4.04 billion if regulators do not approve fixes for all 3.0 liter vehicles. . . .

Via GCR:
Extent of Volkswagen diesel deceit detailed in new book
http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1110423_extent-of-volkswagen-diesel-deceit-detailed-in-new-book

A new book, titled Faster, Higher, Farther: The Volkswagen Scandal, aims to shed light on the events leading up to the company's admission in September 2015.

Now The New York Times has published a passage adapted from the book, which gives a brief look at what readers can expect from author Jack Ewing.

What's most remarkable is the intricacy of the operation to cover up the polluting diesel vehicles. . . .

The book will go on sale May 23, 2017, offering much more detail into the entire Volkswagen diesel emission cheating scandal.
 
IssacZachary said:
LeftieBiker said:
I get upwards of 55mpg going 75mph in my 1985 VW diesel, sometimes over 60mpg if I'm careful with the pedal. I kind of think something must be wrong with technology in the sense that very few cars can attain that kind of fuel mileage today.

And that is the crux of the issue why people liked the diesels. I had a 2000 TDI Jetta and I easily got anywhere from 625 to 650 miles out of a tank and that was in Utah going up and down mountains, etc. Nobody bought/buys those cars because they are supposedly "clean", they bought them because they got phenomenal gas mileage compared to their unleaded counterparts.

I'll be brutally honest - as much as I have become interested in EVs and am considering one for my next car, I simply cannot afford them right now (new prices that is). I was actually kind of hoping a ton of used TDI VW cars would start showing up on lots at cheap prices after the buy backs so that maybe I could get back into one again. However, it sounds like most are going to be scrapped or shipped out of the country (if what I have heard is correct).
 
A used Prius is a better value than a used Diesel because they are way more reliable and similar or better fuel economy and price. The trade-off is less torque. The notion that Diesels got stellar fuel economy based on range per tank is a crock. That was true because the car has a big tank.
 
tattoogunman said:
IssacZachary said:
LeftieBiker said:
I get upwards of 55mpg going 75mph in my 1985 VW diesel, sometimes over 60mpg if I'm careful with the pedal. I kind of think something must be wrong with technology in the sense that very few cars can attain that kind of fuel mileage today.

And that is the crux of the issue why people liked the diesels. I had a 2000 TDI Jetta and I easily got anywhere from 625 to 650 miles out of a tank and that was in Utah going up and down mountains, etc. Nobody bought/buys those cars because they are supposedly "clean", they bought them because they got phenomenal gas mileage compared to their unleaded counterparts.

I'll be brutally honest - as much as I have become interested in EVs and am considering one for my next car, I simply cannot afford them right now (new prices that is). I was actually kind of hoping a ton of used TDI VW cars would start showing up on lots at cheap prices after the buy backs so that maybe I could get back into one again. However, it sounds like most are going to be scrapped or shipped out of the country (if what I have heard is correct).

I didn't write any of the quoted material. Please fix that. I loathe diesels.
 
SageBrush said:
A used Prius is a better value than a used Diesel because they are way more reliable and similar or better fuel economy and price. The trade-off is less torque. The notion that Diesels got stellar fuel economy based on range per tank is a crock. That was true because the car has a big tank.

I don't know if I can agree with all that. Not that I don't respect or appreciate your posts or that you have to agree with me. ;)

The main reason I haven't gotten rid on my ol' 1985 diesel is because the thing just won't die. It had over 400,000 miles when I bought it and it still runs like a champ. And no, I haven't done a thing to the engine except change oil and filters. In the 8 years that I've owned it the car has never let me down. I think it's because it's just to simple. The only things that could go wrong with the engine is either the mechanical fuel injecting pump, the glow plugs, the timing belt, the oil pump or the cooling system. There are no sensors or electronics of any sort to go wrong.

Of course things may be much different for modern diesels. They are probably much like gasoline engines. Prior to the Leaf I had a Chevy Astro with 160,000 miles that started acting up. Even with the Factory Repair Manual and a GM Tech 2 diagnostics tool I could not get that engine to run right even after replacing nearly the whole engine and everything that goes on it.

I think hybrids are a good idea, but there are a few things that scare me away from them. One is the off-on way they work. Ever since I was a boy I've always been told that the hardest thing on an engine is starting it. If you look at any owners manual you can let engine maintenance go well over twice the distance if you use the vehicle for long drives instead of short ones. The more you turn the engine on and off the more frequently you're supposed to change the oil and filters. Now add to that that you also have two propulsion systems to go wrong on a hybrid. I'm going on 500,000 miles in the diesel. I'm really hoping that a bunch of hybrid owner's will respond to this post and state that they have 200k, 300k, or more miles on their hybrids and are still running strong without ever having any major issues.

But in favor of hybrids there is the fact that some hybrids, especially plugin hybrids, end up using the ICE considerably less. That can add reliability and longevity to the car.

As far as fuel mileage in a diesel goes I can attest that it's not just the fuel tank size. My mother-in-law lives in Ciudad Juarez, Mexico. Go to any map and you'll see that it's at least 590 miles between Gunnison and Juarez. Yet I've done that trip several times in the ol' diesel with its 12 gallon fuel tank, fueling first in Gunnison, getting to the in-laws, then drive around Juarez with them for a week Then I fill up (630 miles after the last time I filled up) and drive all the way to Gunnison! And once I get to Gunnison I fill up and check what I used: Less than 21 gallons for a >1,200 mile trip. The fact that I've done this trip every year for the past 8 years and have always gotten repeatable results is proof that diesel can be very efficient.

Not that hybrids can't achieve that kind of highway mileage and get better town mileage at the same time. Part of the reason is because hybrids have their engines sized for fuel mileage, not acceleration. They get their acceleration from the combination of the electric and gasoline motors. But that can cause a problem here in the mountains. Quite a few hybrid owners that I know complain that while going up mountain passes the battery quickly depletes and then they're stuck with only the gutless, feels-like-it-won't-make-it, tiny gasoline engine, whereas diesel engines can be sized for good continuous acceleration and yet still get steller highway fuel mileage.

Now add diesel and hybrid together and you get a VW XL1 capable of getting over 130mpg.
 
I was also taught in automotive classes that starting an engine produces the most wear, but hybrids have two things working to minimize that: synthetic oil and a hot engine. Most wear actually occurs when you start a cold engine, not when you restart a hot one. As long as the oil film hasn't drained off the contact surfaces, the wear is negligible.

The diesel in your '85 VW was also used in Volvos of the era. It had to work a lot harder in the heavier cars, and suffered failures more often. The degree to which an engine is stressed in daily use goes a long way toward determining its longevity.
 
LeftieBiker said:
I was also taught in automotive classes that starting an engine produces the most wear, but hybrids have two things working to minimize that: synthetic oil and a hot engine. Most wear actually occurs when you start a cold engine, not when you restart a hot one. As long as the oil film hasn't drained off the contact surfaces, the wear is negligible.

The diesel in your '85 VW was also used in Volvos of the era. It had to work a lot harder in the heavier cars, and suffered failures more often. The degree to which an engine is stressed in daily use goes a long way toward determining its longevity.
I've always driven my diesel full throttle. It hasn't failed me yet, although I wish it would so I could have a reason to buy a newer car, like a Prius, a Mitsubishi Mirage or a Ford Fiesta Ecoboost. Maybe I should stop using synthetic oil and plugging in the block heater.

But another thing is that it's the high RPM's that also hurt engines. I floor it but keep the RPM's down. I thought the Volvos had 6 cylinder diesels, not the little 1.6L 4 cylinders.

I do see a future for diesels that gasoline won't be able to fill. There already exists technology to filter certain gases completely out of the air using very little energy. Let's say you could filter all the nitrogen out of the air and use pure oxygen, carbon dioxide and water vapor as the working fluids. NOx emissions would be completely eliminated and the higher oxygen content would virtually eliminate all other emissions. And then, since it's a diesel, the compression ratio could be increased to whatever is mechanically possible raising efficiency through the roof. This is something that can't be done in a gasoline engine (for an example my prehistoric diesel engine has a CR of 23:1 whereas there are very few gasoline engines with CR's as high as 17:1.) Then make the engine completely out of ceramic material that doesn't need lubrication nor cooling (which has already been done). The resulting efficiency would be potentially as high as 70%, dropping CO2 emissions considerably. That would be impossible with gasoline.
 
I thought the Volvos had 6 cylinder diesels, not the little 1.6L 4 cylinders.

Yeah, you're right. They used the D24, from VW trucks. I had forgotten that the rabbit had a diesel four. My memory is getting terrible. The six suffered more wear if run hard when cold.
 
@IssacZachary said
"I think hybrids are a good idea, but there are a few things that scare me away from them. One is the off-on way they work."

I know the Prius best since I have owned 4 of them since 2004. The lesson you learned regarding wear and tear on the engine from starts does not really apply to the Prius (and I presume other hybrids) because the programming uses the traction battery to gently start the piston moving before fuel is injected. The proof is in the pudding: Prius reliability is fantastic. 200k miles is nothing. The Prius forum have a couple of people who use the car for courier type duties who have reported over 500k miles, though I have also read that oil consumption goes up around the 400k mile mark. One thing is true though: the aluminium engine and small oil sump make the engine intolerant of owner abuse. It is a bad idea to overheat the engine by running low on oil. I got in the habit of checking the oil level once a month out of an abundance of caution.

Particularly in the Gen1 model, running out of traction energy on climbs was a real thing I also experienced but I soon learned how to avoid the issue by forcing the car to mostly use the engine early in the climb instead of draining the battery. So gutless was/is not a problem for me, although you should not expect to pass other cars on climbs.
 
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