Update on Nissan LEAF Battery Replacement

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I am going to get the LEAF battery replaced, but I'll still be limited to 84 miles range. Hopefully by the end of this year or early next year there is a vehicle that suits me better. The LEAF 2 is what I'm really curious about. If it doesn't live up to the hype then I'll look at the Kia Soul again. The Soul is supposed to be getting a 30 kW battery for 2018, and there may be a 120 mile range Niro EV coming out soon. With all the longer range vehicles on the market Kia may have to drop the price significantly. I should test drive the Ioniq at some point, but I'm really more interested in a hatchback.

Normally I would buy, but I'm planning to lease because I can use it as a tax write off for my company. Also, I was very shocked by the depreciation of my LEAF. I bought it figuring gas prices would continue to rise and a used LEAF would be much more valuable. Of course gas dropped and the battery turned out to be a dud. If Nissan weren't helping replace the battery, then the car would pretty much be useless. I couldn't in good conscience sell it someone else unless they really knew just how limited an 8 bar LEAF is - even for the paltry $4000 it would probably fetch. So I will lease, I don't want to get burned again, especially when 2020 looks to be the year that multiple long range larger vehicles from a number of different manufacturers may start to appear. By 2021 hopefully I can buy a great vehicle and drive that for a decade or so.

GerryAZ said:
$1500 makes the car you already own like new again. If you lease the Soul, you pay $200 per month and end up with no car when the lease ends. Are you sure you want to give up the LEAF? I am an old guy who likes the Soul and I might have purchased one if they had been available in AZ when I had to replace my 2011. The Soul EV is still not available here.
Click to expand...
 
Yes, we who supported Nissan by buying the Leaf and placed our trust in their management are disappointed because they decided neither to improve the range of the car along the way nor offer upgraded batteries for the older models. The results are a lot of unhappy customers. I no longer trust Nissan so if I buy another car, it won't be a Nissan, ever.
 
I was definitely feeling this way too. I had babied the battery trusting it would last, but I just ended up losing the 4th bar shortly out of warranty. Their offer to pay 80% of the battery replacement put me square back in the Nissan camp.

fotajoye said:
Yes, we who supported Nissan by buying the Leaf and placed our trust in their management are disappointed because they decided neither to improve the range of the car along the way nor offer upgraded batteries for the older models. The results are a lot of unhappy customers. I no longer trust Nissan so if I buy another car, it won't be a Nissan, ever.
Click to expand...
 
rpmdk said:
I was definitely feeling this way too. I had babied the battery trusting it would last, but I just ended up losing the 4th bar shortly out of warranty. Their offer to pay 80% of the battery replacement put me square back in the Nissan camp.

fotajoye said:
Yes, we who supported Nissan by buying the Leaf and placed our trust in their management are disappointed because they decided neither to improve the range of the car along the way nor offer upgraded batteries for the older models. The results are a lot of unhappy customers. I no longer trust Nissan so if I buy another car, it won't be a Nissan, ever.
Click to expand...
Click to expand...

It's a cold calculated move on the part of Nissan.

I once wondered why they would not take better care of their first customers, since we will influence the next batch of customers either positively or negatively.
It turns out that if you study Rogers Diffusion of Innovation theory, the level of influence or "Opinion Leadership" that consumers have is maximized during the second phase of market adoption. Rogers calls that phase "Early adopter". We are part of the previous classification known as "Innovators". It's the second batch of customers that will make or break a product's adoption, that's who Nissan will be sure to keep happy. We don't rate that high in the grand scheme of things.
 
I wonder if anyone knows:

1. The current price of getting a replacement battery (assuming no warranty help).
2. Has the price been going down, holding steady, or going up over the years.
3. I have a 2013, if/when I need to replace the battery is it the same as the original, or the higher capacity that is on the new cars.

Curious only - my battery if fine. 30K miles and I have no bars lost or any indication of lost capacity. Reason I am asking is that EV skeptical friends always say "Yeah, but you will have to replace that expensive battery so EV's are not worth it".

My response is that I save so much on gas it offsets the cost of a battery. It would just be nice to have good numbers to back that up. Thanks.
 
jlatl said:
I wonder if anyone knows:

1. The current price of getting a replacement battery (assuming no warranty help).
2. Has the price been going down, holding steady, or going up over the years.
3. I have a 2013, if/when I need to replace the battery is it the same as the original, or the higher capacity that is on the new cars.

Curious only - my battery if fine. 30K miles and I have no bars lost or any indication of lost capacity. Reason I am asking is that EV skeptical friends always say "Yeah, but you will have to replace that expensive battery so EV's are not worth it".

My response is that I save so much on gas it offsets the cost of a battery. It would just be nice to have good numbers to back that up. Thanks.
Click to expand...

The battery itself is $5,500. You will then pay for taxes and labor to fit it. That will take you north of $6,000 depending on the labor charge, it will vary by dealer.

The price hasn't changed since the replacement battery program was announced several years ago.

Replacement batteries are 24kWh only, no upgrade path to higher capacity packs has been provided by Nissan.
 
J I once wondered why they would not take better care of their first customers said:
I've always considered myself an "early adopter", apparently I'm an "innovator". I think I like that better, but could we please get this EV revolution a little further down the road.
Click to expand...
 
I think you are misreading the Rogers model. The second stage has the greatest influence because the consumer base is much wider, not because each person in that level is more important. And more importantly, without a happy first level, the second level flounders.
 
Theories make for good discussion; however, theories aside, Nissan has truly made a poor decision here; There are 260,000 plus Leafs worldwide that have created at least that many buyers for a second battery pack. Seems to me Nissan would want their dealers to sell those packs and be able to charge a premium for a higher range. Surely Nissan stands to make money if they manage the process wisely. EVs are more similar to flashlights than ICE cars; you don't throw the light away when the battery goes bad, you replace the battery and keep on shining the light. In fact, there is little or no reason to sell your Leaf, if it will meet your needs...just keep buying batteries every few years and driving the car...no one says you should trade it in every 3 years except those in the business of selling cars. I have a 2000 Toyota Tacoma that cost $17,000 new and is still going nicely. All I do is change oil, add gas, buy a battery and brakes every five to six years and every year it gets cheaper to drive. Let see $17,000 divided by 18 is $944 for each year on the selling price. Next year that will be $17,000 divide by 19 or $895(ha)...

BTW, because there are so many companies starting to build batteries, I believe eventually there will be a healthy aftermarket battery pack business...too bad Tesla doesn't build them for a Leaf.
 
SageBrush said:
I think you are misreading the Rogers model. The second stage has the greatest influence because the consumer base is much wider, not because each person in that level is more important. And more importantly, without a happy first level, the second level flounders.
Click to expand...

The model defines the early adopters as have the greatest influence despite early majority and late majority being much larger segments of the market.

Size doesn't always matter :)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diffusion_of_innovations#Adopter_categories
 
I would say the innovators constituted the EV-1 or even the DIY EV conversion era, while the early adopters are the LEAF/Volt 1 people. Which group the Roadster falls in, I'm not sure. I think we're just at the point of 'crossing the chasm' to early majority now, but at the moment there's little incentive for mainstream customers to do so.
 
JPWhite said:
The model defines the early adopters as have the greatest influence despite early majority and late majority being much larger segments of the market.

Size doesn't always matter :)
Click to expand...



JP;

Like your blog. I'm a very late "adopter" (maybe too late to take on the title - but definitely an "advocate"). I've waited for an EV that would be on par with an inexpensive sub-compact (Versa typifies), that could go 75-100 miles, that would cost less than $15,000, new - did not happen. Being a renewables and off-grid junkie, when it became apparent that the cheapest Li tech (well managed) energy storage was a used Leaf - I bought one to "play" with for solar charging (and extraction at some point) - for much less than $15,000. It also met all my original criteria (and more) as it is still like new.

In the year and half of ownership, all my work buddies go to lunch in my Leaf and I send them the "good deals" on used ones. But the most satisfying part of my "advocacy" is that my 16 year old Grandson always asks for the keys to take it for a spin - and wants to show it off to his friends (definitely not because of the styling). His generation might well be users rather than adopters - for many good reasons.
 
JPWhite said:
SageBrush said:
I think you are misreading the Rogers model. The second stage has the greatest influence because the consumer base is much wider, not because each person in that level is more important. And more importantly, without a happy first level, the second level flounders.
Click to expand...

The model defines the early adopters as have the greatest influence despite early majority and late majority being much larger segments of the market.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diffusion_of_innovations#Adopter_categories
Click to expand...
I understand the notion that the early adopters are the communicators to the unwashed, mostly technically ignorant early and later majority. But realize that the model is describing a *successful* diffusion of a new technology. A disaffected 'innovator' group is not going to follow this diffusion path.
 
fotajoye said:
Theories make for good discussion; however, theories aside, Nissan has truly made a poor decision here; There are 260,000 plus Leafs worldwide that have created at least that many buyers for a second battery pack. Seems to me Nissan would want their dealers to sell those packs and be able to charge a premium for a higher range. Surely Nissan stands to make money if they manage the process wisely. EVs are more similar to flashlights than ICE cars; you don't throw the light away when the battery goes bad, you replace the battery and keep on shining the light. In fact, there is little or no reason to sell your Leaf, if it will meet your needs...just keep buying batteries every few years and driving the car...no one says you should trade it in every 3 years except those in the business of selling cars. I have a 2000 Toyota Tacoma that cost $17,000 new and is still going nicely. All I do is change oil, add gas, buy a battery and brakes every five to six years and every year it gets cheaper to drive. Let see $17,000 divided by 18 is $944 for each year on the selling price. Next year that will be $17,000 divide by 19 or $895(ha)...

BTW, because there are so many companies starting to build batteries, I believe eventually there will be a healthy aftermarket battery pack business...too bad Tesla doesn't build them for a Leaf.
Click to expand...

This has been my point when people talk about cost savings with an EV. In reality, the vast majority of modern vehicles require very little in the way of maintenance. What is required is *not* that costly. I have a 2012 Fiat 500 and at a very conservative average, I spend about $100 a year on maintenance and I spend around $500 a year in gas. If I were to get an EV, my insurance would go up enough that it would negate the cost savings in gasoline. I would get cost savings from the maintenance side of things, but that would probably be offset a bit electric costs.

What I would like to see is this - sell me a four door hatch cheap, a Leaf is nowhere near worth the asking price of over $30K. It's maybe a $20K hatchback, so sell it for $17K to $20K (BASE price - you want options, you pay for a higher end model). Then adopt the European model of allowing owners to lease the battery packs. You pick what battery pack you want (24kwh, 30, etc.) and then you make a monthly lease payment. If you want to swap it out down the road for a different pack, you can do that. This would help to get the costs of these cars down to where the average person can actually afford them and you don't have to worry about the battery because you can always swap it out for another one. For someone who REALLY wanted to buy the car outright , pack and all, you could do that as well - but these cars HAVE to be priced lower than what they are selling for now. Purely my opinion ;)
 
tattoogunman said:
What I would like to see is this - sell me a four door hatch cheap, a Leaf is nowhere near worth the asking price of over $30K. It's maybe a $20K hatchback, so sell it for $17K to $20K (BASE price - you want options, you pay for a higher end model). Then adopt the European model of allowing owners to lease the battery packs. You pick what battery pack you want (24kwh, 30, etc.) and then you make a monthly lease payment. If you want to swap it out down the road for a different pack, you can do that. This would help to get the costs of these cars down to where the average person can actually afford them and you don't have to worry about the battery because you can always swap it out for another one. For someone who REALLY wanted to buy the car outright , pack and all, you could do that as well - but these cars HAVE to be priced lower than what they are selling for now. Purely my opinion ;)
Click to expand...

OK, so you imply that EVs haven't been marketed optimally or you suggest that we (the government) or the automotive
OEMs subsidize your future transportation needs, right?
 
[quoteOK, so you imply that EVs haven't been marketed optimally or you suggest that we (the government) or the automotive
OEMs subsidize your future transportation needs, right?][/quote]

The problem with legacy car makers, i.e., Nissan, GM, etc., is they are tied to a huge investment in Internal combustion engines with a dealer network that is based mostly on the repair business of fixing mechanical breakages. It is estimated each repair bay is worth a million dollars plus a year to a dealer....And, breakage and repair has been their way for a hundred years. What is occurring in this transition over to electric cars is the dealers and car makers are pricing in their costs of making that transition on the backs of the EV buyers...so, the Government kicks in subsides to assist them. You and I know a basic EV is really a pretty simple device...a battery, charger, motor,motor control and wheels,with little dependency on mechanical devices. In theory they should be cheap to build once the economics of scale kicks in. Sub $20,000 Leafs will someday be normal and except for replacing batteries, a future EV will last until you get tired of driving it.

Tesla has a decided advantage over GM, Ford and Fiat Chrysler. They don't need bother with ICVs, or their mechanical failures. So, they build only EVs. There are analysts who believe the U.S. car makers are so wedded to the internal combustion engine and fossil fuels they won't make the transition to EVs without first going through bankruptcy and reorganizing.
 
lorenfb said:
tattoogunman said:
What I would like to see is this - sell me a four door hatch cheap, a Leaf is nowhere near worth the asking price of over $30K. It's maybe a $20K hatchback, so sell it for $17K to $20K (BASE price - you want options, you pay for a higher end model). Then adopt the European model of allowing owners to lease the battery packs. You pick what battery pack you want (24kwh, 30, etc.) and then you make a monthly lease payment. If you want to swap it out down the road for a different pack, you can do that. This would help to get the costs of these cars down to where the average person can actually afford them and you don't have to worry about the battery because you can always swap it out for another one. For someone who REALLY wanted to buy the car outright , pack and all, you could do that as well - but these cars HAVE to be priced lower than what they are selling for now. Purely my opinion ;)
Click to expand...

OK, so you imply that EVs haven't been marketed optimally or you suggest that we (the government) or the automotive
OEMs subsidize your future transportation needs, right?
Click to expand...

Where did I say I expected the government to subsidize it? I already see people talking non-stop about one of the only reasons why they bought an EV in the first place was because of the federal and/or state tax credits - subsidies like those?

I'm saying these cars are overpriced and they need to be priced much better than they are now to become more marketable to the masses.
 
fotajoye said:
[quoteOK, so you imply that EVs haven't been marketed optimally or you suggest that we (the government) or the automotive
OEMs subsidize your future transportation needs, right?]
Click to expand...

The problem with legacy car makers, i.e., Nissan, GM, etc., is they are tied to a huge investment in Internal combustion engines with a dealer network that is based mostly on the repair business of fixing mechanical breakages. It is estimated each repair bay is worth a million dollars plus a year to a dealer....And, breakage and repair has been their way for a hundred years. What is occurring in this transition over to electric cars is the dealers and car makers are pricing in their costs of making that transition on the backs of the EV buyers...so, the Government kicks in subsides to assist them. You and I know a basic EV is really a pretty simple device...a battery, charger, motor,motor control and wheels,with little dependency on mechanical devices. In theory they should be cheap to build once the economics of scale kicks in. Sub $20,000 Leafs will someday be normal and except for replacing batteries, a future EV will last until you get tired of driving it.

Tesla has a decided advantage over GM, Ford and Fiat Chrysler. They don't need bother with ICVs, or their mechanical failures. So, they build only EVs. There are analysts who believe the U.S. car makers are so wedded to the internal combustion engine and fossil fuels they won't make the transition to EVs without first going through bankruptcy and reorganizing.[/quote]

I think there are going to have to be growing pains and they are going to hurt. If this technology starts taking off, they are going to have to adapt and this may also mean that the traditional dealer structure changes with it. It's not just dealers, imagine all of the independent auto repair shops out there - what do they do when people stop coming in for oil changes and small repairs like belt replacements, spark plugs, mufflers, etc.? The companies that make oil filters, oil pumps, belts, transmissions, etc.? It's happened before when a new technology has come along and made the earlier version obsolete - think of horses before the car came along. It will be a painful change for some, but hopefully within a generation or so it becomes the norm. People will need to adapt or be phased out - happens all the time. This is all assuming that EV tech becomes the standard of course ;)
 
fotajoye said:
The problem with legacy car makers, i.e., Nissan, GM, etc., is they are tied to a huge investment in Internal combustion engines with a dealer network that is based mostly on the repair business of fixing mechanical breakages. It is estimated each repair bay is worth a million dollars plus a year to a dealer....And, breakage and repair has been their way for a hundred years. What is occurring in this transition over to electric cars is the dealers and car makers are pricing in their costs of making that transition on the backs of the EV buyers...so, the Government kicks in subsides to assist them.
Click to expand...

A pricing conspiracy among the ICEV manufacturers and their inability to lose money like Tesla does making BEVs is
the basis for their present position in the BEV market, right?

fotajoye said:
You and I know a basic EV is really a pretty simple device...a battery, charger, motor,motor control and wheels,with little dependency on mechanical devices. In theory they should be cheap to build once the economics of scale kicks in.
Click to expand...

Have you overlooked the most costly component in an BEV, i.e. the battery which presently significantly limits the BEV's
penetration in the sub-$35K market. With the battery costs presently at around $180 - $200 per kWh, the battery costs
more than a 1600cc ICE for a sub-compact with +40 mpg and a resale price around $20K. Most consumers "yawn" when
asked about considering a BEV purchase.

fotajoye said:
Sub $20,000 Leafs will someday be normal and except for replacing batteries, a future EV will last until you get tired of driving it.
Click to expand...

That "someday" is really doubtful.

fotajoye said:
Tesla has a decided advantage over GM, Ford and Fiat Chrysler. They don't need bother with ICVs, or their mechanical failures. So, they build only EVs. There are analysts who believe the U.S. car makers are so wedded to the internal combustion engine and fossil fuels they won't make the transition to EVs without first going through bankruptcy and reorganizing.
Click to expand...

Oh please! Tesla's technology is basic off-the-shelf technology accessible to all ICEV OEMs. The only real advantage for
Tesla is its SC network. Given Tesla's present financial trajectory, Tesla is more likely to enter bankruptcy than any
ICEV OEM.
 

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