Update on Nissan LEAF Battery Replacement

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tattoogunman said:
I'm saying these cars are overpriced and they need to be priced much better than they are now to become more marketable to the masses.

Really? So you suggest that OEMs re-price their BEVs to be loss-leaders like Tesla vehicles, right?
Please avoid marketing as a vocation.
 
Nissan IS selling their LEAFs in the upper teens. Sure its thru a combination of discounts and fed credits but the result is still the same. This is no different than any other manufacturer providing discounts, right?

There is nothing wrong with this and it is EXACTLY this process that has been used for decades to sell cars.

Enter LEAF II; nearly the same price (We all know only a token price hike from MY to MY is acceptable) but much shinier options which adds a few K to the sticker. But again, discounts, etc will bring the car to market value. At least Nissan understands this.

Chevy OTOH is gambling that 60 kwh will blind consumers into making that leap and for those who have the tax liability, its a very good option to consider but that leaves a HUGE niche of customers unable to get the full $7500 out in the cold and every day, the Chevy advantage shrinks. So is Chevy pulling it off? Hard to say since the market is still small but they are already in most of the EV hotbeds and what is the results? I have to say I see minimal excitement in WA.

To add to that; Chevy is pocketing the fed credit for consumers on leases. IOW, double dipping.

So the option faced is take a leap of faith and buy Version 1.0 at premium prices

or not.

Didn't do it with LEAF 1.0 and not gonna start now.
 
lorenfb said:
tattoogunman said:
I'm saying these cars are overpriced and they need to be priced much better than they are now to become more marketable to the masses.

Really? So you suggest that OEMs re-price their BEVs to be loss-leaders like Tesla vehicles, right?
Please avoid marketing as a vocation.

I'm saying that if EVs are to be adopted en masse, they need to be priced better than they are now. Right now, these cars are too expensive for "the masses" that everyone keeps talking about since they all range from the $30K to over $40K to get into one and that's too much money for the average person. The average salary in the U.S. right now, for someone with a four year degree, is hovering around $45K a year. Median household income in the U.S. is hovering around $55K per year - those are the masses and those people cannot afford to spend $30K to $42K on a car.

If you disagree, that's fine - everyone is entitled to their own opinion. I'm poor and cannot afford the current crop of EVs and there are plenty of people in my position who would love to go a bit greener and simply cannot do so because we're priced out of the market. Until these cars get cheaper, they are going to remain a niche market product.
 
DaveinOlyWA said:
Nissan IS selling their LEAFs in the upper teens. Sure its thru a combination of discounts and fed credits but the result is still the same. This is no different than any other manufacturer providing discounts, right?

There is nothing wrong with this and it is EXACTLY this process that has been used for decades to sell cars.

Enter LEAF II; nearly the same price (We all know only a token price hike from MY to MY is acceptable) but much shinier options which adds a few K to the sticker. But again, discounts, etc will bring the car to market value. At least Nissan understands this.

Chevy OTOH is gambling that 60 kwh will blind consumers into making that leap and for those who have the tax liability, its a very good option to consider but that leaves a HUGE niche of customers unable to get the full $7500 out in the cold and every day, the Chevy advantage shrinks. So is Chevy pulling it off? Hard to say since the market is still small but they are already in most of the EV hotbeds and what is the results? I have to say I see minimal excitement in WA.

To add to that; Chevy is pocketing the fed credit for consumers on leases. IOW, double dipping.

So the option faced is take a leap of faith and buy Version 1.0 at premium prices

or not.

Didn't do it with LEAF 1.0 and not gonna start now.

I'm not a fan of the credits because you shouldn't need that as an excuse to buy one of these cars and that's assuming you are entitled on getting the credit back in the first place. Not ever state has incentives either, so that also should not be an excuse to buy one. These credits would not be needed if they cars were priced better to begin with. A loaded Bolt will set you back over $42,000 and that's just crazy.

People are still leary of this technology, for a variety of reasons, and that's not going to be offset by extremely high purchase prices. It's like the Volt - it has Chevy's highest customer satisfaction ever recorded, has received any number of automotive awards, top crash test results, etc. and they still can't move enough of them. The Bolt seems to be going the same way - already receiving awards and accolades, but not too many sales (the fact it isn't available in all states yet isn't helping that).

It's hard to convince someone to buy an electric for a premium price when they can buy an ICE car sitting next to it, loaded to the gills with all the options, at a lower price.

I want an EV, but they are simply too expensive for poor blokes like me. Like I said above - purely my opinion and everyone is entitled to theirs :)
 
tattoogunman said:
I'm not a fan of the credits because you shouldn't need that as an excuse to buy one of these cars and that's assuming you are entitled on getting the credit back in the first place. Not ever state has incentives either, so that also should not be an excuse to buy one. These credits would not be needed if they cars were priced better to begin with. A loaded Bolt will set you back over $42,000 and that's just crazy.

People are still leary of this technology, for a variety of reasons, and that's not going to be offset by extremely high purchase prices. It's like the Volt - it has Chevy's highest customer satisfaction ever recorded, has received any number of automotive awards, top crash test results, etc. and they still can't move enough of them. The Bolt seems to be going the same way - already receiving awards and accolades, but not too many sales (the fact it isn't available in all states yet isn't helping that).

It's hard to convince someone to buy an electric for a premium price when they can buy an ICE car sitting next to it, loaded to the gills with all the options, at a lower price.

I want an EV, but they are simply too expensive for poor blokes like me. Like I said above - purely my opinion and everyone is entitled to theirs :)

I agree with much of your reasoning - here in Texas, we generally get only the Fed credits - maybe a credit for a charger :roll: .

However - I've found several used Leafs that will qualify for a free battery replacement - or had the battery recently replaced - in the range of $6000 to $9000. I bought one such Leaf and I am absolutely sold on this car! Most were lease deals and kept in top condition (which is easy to do with a little care). If you can live with a 65 to 85 mile range vehicle, and want to save $$$'s on fuel costs, find the right one and give it a try!
 
tattoogunman said:
I'm not a fan of the credits because you shouldn't need that as an excuse to buy one of these cars and that's assuming you are entitled on getting the credit back in the first place. Not ever state has incentives either, so that also should not be an excuse to buy one. These credits would not be needed if they cars were priced better to begin with. A loaded Bolt will set you back over $42,000 and that's just crazy.

People are still leary of this technology, for a variety of reasons, and that's not going to be offset by extremely high purchase prices. It's like the Volt - it has Chevy's highest customer satisfaction ever recorded, has received any number of automotive awards, top crash test results, etc. and they still can't move enough of them. The Bolt seems to be going the same way - already receiving awards and accolades, but not too many sales (the fact it isn't available in all states yet isn't helping that).

It's hard to convince someone to buy an electric for a premium price when they can buy an ICE car sitting next to it, loaded to the gills with all the options, at a lower price.

I want an EV, but they are simply too expensive for poor blokes like me. Like I said above - purely my opinion and everyone is entitled to theirs :)

Consider forwarding your insightful marketing perspective on EVs to Mary Barra (CEO of GM - $22M '16 salary)
and suggest that both the Bolt & Volt product lines run at loss until the typical consumer becomes financially
indifferent to buying an ICEV or an EV. GM employees could be asked to take pay-cuts to ameliorate
the overall loss. The stock price will surely tumble, but shareholders are generally wealthy anyway, right?
Again, it's all in an effort to facilitate the transition to EVs, i.e. a very "noble cause".

Also, suggest by immediately reducing Mary Barra's salary to about just $2M per year versus $22M she could
then reduce Volt & Bolt prices in the near term by $20K each, i.e. GM would easily "move" about 1K units of
which you would be the first in line (It was your revolutionary idea).
 
lorenfb said:
Consider forwarding your insightful marketing perspective on EVs to Mary Barra (CEO of GM - $22M '16 salary)
and suggest that both the Bolt & Volt product lines run at loss until the typical consumer becomes financially
indifferent to buying an ICEV or an EV. GM employees could be asked to take pay-cuts to ameliorate
the overall loss. The stock price will surely tumble, but shareholders are generally wealthy anyway, right?
Again, it's all in an effort to facilitate the transition to EVs, i.e. a very "noble cause".

Also, suggest by immediately reducing Mary Barra's salary to about just $2M per year versus $22M she could
then reduce Volt & Bolt prices in the near term by $20K each, i.e. GM would easily "move" about 1K units of
which you would be the first in line (It was your revolutionary idea).
You are being purposely obtuse. He is not saying that the current makers should immediately lower prices, but that efforts to lower prices in the future are required for ultimate success. He's right...of course this isn't the thread for it.
 
davewill said:
He is not saying that the current makers should immediately lower prices, but that efforts to lower prices in the future are required for ultimate success. He's right...of course this isn't the thread for it.

Intuitively, anyone with a very basic understanding of economics, e.g. middle school, knows that lower prices expands
the market for goods & services! Or, I guess we're back to the theory that ICEV OEMs are purposely keeping EVs
prices high and are in collusion with the oil companies, right? Most vehicle OEMs operate in an elastic market
where lower prices result in a higher volume. If OEMs could operate profitably at a lower price where the
volume delta would result in a net gain, they would.

And how about those smartphone producers that price their product where many cell phone users are "forced"
to buy flip-phones. Surely, those smartphone producers need to "adjust" their product prices to allow less
well-off consumers, e.g. struggling college students, to afford smartphones.

Isn't terrible how capitalistic economics "rations" goods and services and sets prices?
 
lorenfb said:
davewill said:
He is not saying that the current makers should immediately lower prices, but that efforts to lower prices in the future are required for ultimate success. He's right...of course this isn't the thread for it.

Intuitively, anyone with a very basic understanding of economics, e.g. middle school, knows that lower prices expands
the market for goods & services! Or, I guess we're back to the theory that ICEV OEMs are purposely keeping EVs
prices high and are in collusion with the oil companies, right? Most vehicle OEMs operate in an elastic market
where lower prices result in a higher volume. If OEMs could operate profitably at a lower price where the
volume delta would result in a net gain, they would.

And how about those smartphone producers that price their product where many cell phone users are "forced"
to buy flip-phones. Surely, those smartphone producers need to "adjust" their product prices to allow less
well-off consumers, e.g. struggling college students, to afford smartphones.

Isn't terrible how capitalistic economics "rations" goods and services and sets prices?

Guys: Please get back on the topic of Information about Leaf batteries...TNX
 
Now that we're back on topic, I have been wondering about the Nissan battery replacement program. It seems Brockman (I think that's his name) announced the original $5500 plus install price for replacement batteries almost 3 years ago now. Surely with battery costs falling every year that number needs to be adjusted at this point, right? If we assume a 10% drop in costs per year (which may be aggressive, but let's go with it for now) that would bring the retail price of the 24 kWh pack to $4k plus install now. Some quick math would lead to a retail price on a 30 kWh pack of $5k plus install, which of course then leads us back to the question of WHEN (not if) Nissan will finally agree to sell 30 kWh replacement packs to owners of 2011 thru 2016 24 kWh Leafs.

I don't need one yet, my 2015 still shows 91% SOH and is running fine. But 5 years from now perhaps I will want one. And by then I'm hopeful the costs will have come down to the point that Nissan will sell a 30 kWh replacement pack to me for around $3k plus install. Even if they need to charge another $200 or so to reprogram the BMS to communicate with a different pack capacity, it would be worth it to extend the life of my Leaf and get a bump in range.

Any thoughts on this? Am I just dreaming or might Nissan do this at some point? Mr. Brockman, any comment from Nissan?
 
Bufordleaf said:
Now that we're back on topic, I have been wondering about the Nissan battery replacement program. It seems Brockman (I think that's his name) announced the original $5500 plus install price for replacement batteries almost 3 years ago now. Surely with battery costs falling every year that number needs to be adjusted at this point, right? If we assume a 10% drop in costs per year (which may be aggressive, but let's go with it for now) that would bring the retail price of the 24 kWh pack to $4k plus install now. Some quick math would lead to a retail price on a 30 kWh pack of $5k plus install, which of course then leads us back to the question of WHEN (not if) Nissan will finally agree to sell 30 kWh replacement packs to owners of 2011 thru 2016 24 kWh Leafs.

I don't need one yet, my 2015 still shows 91% SOH and is running fine. But 5 years from now perhaps I will want one. And by then I'm hopeful the costs will have come down to the point that Nissan will sell a 30 kWh replacement pack to me for around $3k plus install. Even if they need to charge another $200 or so to reprogram the BMS to communicate with a different pack capacity, it would be worth it to extend the life of my Leaf and get a bump in range.

Any thoughts on this? Am I just dreaming or might Nissan do this at some point? Mr. Brockman, any comment from Nissan?
As an EV, the Leaf has a long life ahead, unlike ICEVs that suffer from constant maintenance costs and major mechanical breakdowns. Nissan hasn't figured that out yet and are still creating policy based on producing obsolete gassers.

Let's hope there is a good aftermarket battery pack provider for these cars; there is nothing worse than when a dealer has you locked in. has control of your car and can rob you legally. Right now that is the case with Nissan and the Leaf. You are in effect at their mercy. The $6-$7k price for the same range replacement battery added to the blue book value of a used Leaf takes the car out of consideration for many people. In order to make the used Leaf more attractive either reduce the cost of a replacement battery or offer more range for the same cost. Even a 30 kWh replacement battery would be a step up.
 
Bufordleaf said:
Now that we're back on topic, I have been wondering about the Nissan battery replacement program. It seems Brockman (I think that's his name) announced the original $5500 plus install price for replacement batteries almost 3 years ago now. Surely with battery costs falling every year that number needs to be adjusted at this point, right? If we assume a 10% drop in costs per year (which may be aggressive, but let's go with it for now) that would bring the retail price of the 24 kWh pack to $4k plus install now. Some quick math would lead to a retail price on a 30 kWh pack of $5k plus install, which of course then leads us back to the question of WHEN (not if) Nissan will finally agree to sell 30 kWh replacement packs to owners of 2011 thru 2016 24 kWh Leafs.

I don't need one yet, my 2015 still shows 91% SOH and is running fine. But 5 years from now perhaps I will want one. And by then I'm hopeful the costs will have come down to the point that Nissan will sell a 30 kWh replacement pack to me for around $3k plus install. Even if they need to charge another $200 or so to reprogram the BMS to communicate with a different pack capacity, it would be worth it to extend the life of my Leaf and get a bump in range.

Any thoughts on this? Am I just dreaming or might Nissan do this at some point? Mr. Brockman, any comment from Nissan?

When Nissan announced the replacement program, I believe they were probably losing money on the battery. As you point out battery costs have come down so Nissan may now be making money on the battery. Are they making as much money in percentage terms on the battery compared to say a cabin air filter? I doubt it.

Nissan are in the final stages of selling off their interest in AESC. Who knows why they are doing this, but it could be they couldn't achieve the same savings as other battery manufacturers and/or make a world class battery that lasts 10+ years. Tesla have announced their latest battery going into the Model 3 should last 20 years. Nissan have thrown in the towel on their own battery tech, future cost savings are unlikely.

I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for the price to come down. Once the LEAF 2.0 comes out with presumably new battery tech, there is little incentive for Nissan to pay attention to the old LEAFs except to meet warranty obligations.

What about goodwill? Nissan have demonstrated they are shy about sharing too much of that.
 
Glad to see that this topic is back on track, but it leaves my original question still up in the air. There has been speculation, but does anyone know :

1. What a replacement battery pack is going for?

2. Has there been a trend on the price (going down I hope)?

3. Will the 30kWH pack be available for the earlier models?

It seems a shame that this information is kept so secret.
 
jlatl said:
Glad to see that this topic is back on track, but it leaves my original question still up in the air. There has been speculation, but does anyone know :

1. What a replacement battery pack is going for?

2. Has there been a trend on the price (going down I hope)?

3. Will the 30kWH pack be available for the earlier models?

It seems a shame that this information is kept so secret.

No secrets I'm aware of.

Price of a 24kWh pack is $5,500 plus taxes. This already includes a $1,000 core charge credit to ensure Nissan gets the old pack back. ($6,500 - $1000 + Taxes).
Labor is up to the dealer, figure $500-800 plus taxes.
2011/12 vehicles need some adapters/cables/disconnect. Adds another $200 or so plus taxes.

Price has remained the same for the last 3 years. I doubt we'll see any downward shift in price of parts.

Nissan have stated they will not retrofit the 30kWh pack to the 24kWh variants. This could of course change in the future but seems quite unlikely. The best hope is for a 3rd party to make replacement packs, the feasibility of this without access to the BMS firmware is questionable, replacing the BMS and possibly other components would only make the exercise less likely.
 
Thanks for the good summary JP, that is the current state of affairs as I understand it as well. My 2015 Leaf is in good shape and should provide me with years of reliable service yet, whether or not we decide to replace the battery at some point. While I really do like the Leaf, if Nissan continues to stubbornly refuse to sell 30 kWh packs to owners of older Leafs, I will not purchase another Nissan product. I will instead take my money elsewhere.
 
JPWhite said:
...Price of a 24kWh pack is $5,500 plus taxes which includes a $1,000 core charge credit to ensure Nissan gets the old pack back...
The vast majority of pack replacements so far have been under warranty or subsidized by Nissan, and were either free or exchanged for a fraction of that cost.

Of those few who have reported paying for the pack themselves, I believe several have reported substantial discounts from the $5,500 list price for exchange, with one person claiming they only were charged ~$4,200, IIRC.

Anyone know what the dealer cost is on a 24 kWh pack?
 
edatoakrun said:
JPWhite said:
...Price of a 24kWh pack is $5,500 plus taxes which includes a $1,000 core charge credit to ensure Nissan gets the old pack back...
The vast majority of pack replacements so far have been under warranty or subsidized by Nissan, and were either free or exchanged for a fraction of that cost.

Of those few who have reported paying for the pack themselves, I believe several have reported substantial discounts from the $5,500 list price for exchange, with one person claiming they only were charged ~$4,200, IIRC.

Anyone know what the dealer cost is on a 24 kWh pack?

Thanks edatoakrun for the info. My 2013 has a little over 30K miles on it and I have not lost any bars or noticed any lost capacity, but I am curious - looking ahead to the future. Taking $5,500 battery cost, minus $1,000 core charge, plus about $800 install you get ~$5,300 total list.

I have been hoping that with improvements in technology, larger market, and competition we would see significant price drops. I wonder what it would be if we had a competitive market?
 
jlatl said:
edatoakrun said:
JPWhite said:
...Price of a 24kWh pack is $5,500 plus taxes which includes a $1,000 core charge credit to ensure Nissan gets the old pack back...
The vast majority of pack replacements so far have been under warranty or subsidized by Nissan, and were either free or exchanged for a fraction of that cost.

Of those few who have reported paying for the pack themselves, I believe several have reported substantial discounts from the $5,500 list price for exchange, with one person claiming they only were charged ~$4,200, IIRC.

Anyone know what the dealer cost is on a 24 kWh pack?

Thanks edatoakrun for the info. My 2013 has a little over 30K miles on it and I have not lost any bars or noticed any lost capacity, but I am curious - looking ahead to the future. Taking $5,500 battery cost, minus $1,000 core charge, plus about $800 install you get ~$5,300 total list.

I have been hoping that with improvements in technology, larger market, and competition we would see significant price drops. I wonder what it would be if we had a competitive market?

FYI $5,500 is inclusive of the core discount. Without the core refund the cost is $6,500.
 
jlatl said:
...My 2013 has a little over 30K miles on it and I have not lost any bars or noticed any lost capacity, but I am curious - looking ahead to the future. Taking $5,500 battery cost, minus $1,000 core charge, plus about $800 install you get ~$5,300 total list.

I have been hoping that with improvements in technology, larger market, and competition we would see significant price drops. I wonder what it would be if we had a competitive market?
I've been waiting to see if either of those options (Nissan's "30 kWh" pack, or an aftermarket supplier) show up myself, but don't have the same luxury of time that you do.

6+ years and 52k+ miles from delivery, I may have to decide to settle for a "24 kWh" pack from Nissan.

JPWhite said:
...Without the core refund the cost is $6,500.
No, because unless you return your core, Nissan will not sell you a pack .

Which which may present a problem to me (and perhaps Nissan) fairly soon, as I'd probably want much more than that for my OE pack, or I'd prefer to keep the batteries for home use.
 
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