2017 Prius Prime PHEV

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On a slightly off-topic note: my housemate drives a 2013 PIP. I participated in the Toyota Prius Owner's Forum for years, on her behalf (she hates the internet for the most part). I was one of the people pushing HARD for a heatpump in the PHEV, along with a heated steering wheel. So what does she do when the Prime comes out? She buys her PIP. Shortly thereafter, Toyota notified members of the group that if we talked about what we were shown (and it hadn't been anything Earth-shattering, believe me!) we would be liable for attorneys' fees for Toyota taking legal action against us, along with other darkly-hinted punishments. I opted out. Anyway, not only was I not responsible for the beating the Prime's looks have taken, I also will not be responsible for any future atrocities committed by Toyota on the Prius.
 
rmay635703 said:
I do understand how a heat pump works, but the number of days where I would want heat and it's above 15 are pretty rare
And you are quite sure that the overwhelming majority of car buyers share your behaviour ?
 
SageBrush said:
rmay635703 said:
I do understand how a heat pump works, but the number of days where I would want heat and it's above 15 are pretty rare
And you are quite sure that the overwhelming majority of car buyers share your behaviour ?
Here in Wisconsin I see shorts t-shirts and sandals come out every time it gets above freezing, so yes I do see others that figure it's a nice warm day in those circumstances. For me it depends how sunny , windy and humid it is more than temp.

Maybe things are different in California
 
rmay635703 said:
SageBrush said:
rmay635703 said:
I do understand how a heat pump works, but the number of days where I would want heat and it's above 15 are pretty rare
And you are quite sure that the overwhelming majority of car buyers share your behaviour ?
Here in Wisconsin I see shorts t-shirts and sandals come out every time it gets above freezing, so yes I do see others that figure it's a nice warm day in those circumstances. For me it depends how sunny , windy and humid it is more than temp.

Maybe things are different in California
So now you state that you are not alone. How does that extend to everybody else, or the large majority of everybody else ?
 
rmay635703 said:
SageBrush said:
rmay635703 said:
I do understand how a heat pump works, but the number of days where I would want heat and it's above 15 are pretty rare
And you are quite sure that the overwhelming majority of car buyers share your behaviour ?
Here in Wisconsin I see shorts t-shirts and sandals come out every time it gets above freezing, so yes I do see others that figure it's a nice warm day in those circumstances. For me it depends how sunny , windy and humid it is more than temp.

Maybe things are different in California
Living in the midwest I somewhat agree, which is one of the reasons I purchased a S model Leaf and also supported my bother getting a used S, but I wouldn't call the heatpump a "gimmick". It's a real feature with real benefits. Of course not below 15F when we'd actually need a lot of heat and I agree on a sunny 20-50 day we can often do without any car heat but where I've found the heat pump to be most handy is defogging the windows in the 30-55 degree range, when your FORCED to run the heat, for safety. Temps too cold to really run the more efficient AC to dehumidify the windows so you've got to run the heat, even if your running out of range.
I also think a heatpump is more needed in a vehicle like the Prime with it's smallish battery, if you want to try and make your whole trip on EV. Sure on something like the Prime you can always fall back on the ICE but to me half the fun would be trying to not start the ICE and to that the heatpump would be one more thing to help out :)
 
As stated, it depends on where you live... Here in southern California I very rarely ever use heat... But since I often use A/C, a heat pump is actually a liability for me as it is less efficient at cooling than a pure A/C system... A heat pump CAN be made as efficient as a regular system at cooling but it requires an expensive proportioning valve to do so. So, far, no manufactures have seen fit to spend that money.

jjeff said:
but I wouldn't call the heatpump a "gimmick". It's a real feature with real benefits.
 
TomT said:
As stated, it depends on where you live... Here in southern California I very rarely ever use heat... But since I often use A/C, a heat pump is actually a liability for me as it is less efficient at cooling than a pure A/C system... A heat pump CAN be made as efficient as a regular system at cooling but it requires an expensive proportioning valve to do so. So, far, no manufactures have seen fit to spend that money.

jjeff said:
but I wouldn't call the heatpump a "gimmick". It's a real feature with real benefits.
Interesting, I hadn't thought of the downside of the heatpump :)
What I have wondered about heatpump cars though is, how does it work when you push the DEFROST button? when the heat and cool are on at the same time....in this case does it use the heatpump for dehumidifying and the resistive heater for heat? I mean I can't believe the heatpump unit could both heat and cool at the same time....
 
When you push Defrost the resistance heater comes on. The Leaf has both heaters when equipped with the heatpump. It is possible for a heatpump to provide both heat and A/C at once, but as noted that requires some expensive valve assembly, so the Leaf can't do that. I don't know about the Prime.
 
rmay635703 said:
SageBrush said:
rmay635703 said:
I do understand how a heat pump works, but the number of days where I would want heat and it's above 15 are pretty rare
And you are quite sure that the overwhelming majority of car buyers share your behaviour ?
Here in Wisconsin I see shorts t-shirts and sandals come out every time it gets above freezing, so yes I do see others that figure it's a nice warm day in those circumstances. For me it depends how sunny , windy and humid it is more than temp.

Maybe things are different in California
Yes, they are.
[Mark] Twain’s most well-known remark about the weather is also something he never said: “The coldest winter I ever spent was a summer in San Francisco.” What native San Franciscan hasn’t heard this clever quip served up by a shivering, Bermuda-shorted sightseer on a fogbound Golden Gate Bridge?
https://www.anchorbrewing.com/blog/the-coldest-winter-i-ever-spent-was-a-summer-in-san-francisco-say-what-says-who/

It all depends on what you're used to, but any tourist who comes out here in summer and expects San Francisco to be warm and sunny instead of windy, and damply cold in fog is in for a rude awakening, unless they get lucky. Unlike just about any other major metropolitan area in the northern hemisphere, the month with the highest average temps in S.F. is September rather than July or August, because the fog clears out for a week or two and S.F. has an Indian summer. The real S.F. summer high temps may only be in the low '60s, '50s or occasionally in the '40s, but I've felt far colder than I have in sub-zero temps while skiing (I've X-C skied shirtless in shorts, fingerless bike gloves and a ballcap down to 18 deg. F and been reasonably comfortable, but I have an unusual metabolism). OTOH, 10 or even five miles to the east of S.F. at the same time, you will be in warm or even hot sunny weather - some places like the Bay Area feature a multitude of micro-climates.

It's fair to say that a heat pump is of most benefit in areas with mild winters, where the temps rarely go below freezing and virtually never into the teens, which is the case in virtually all of California west of the Sierra Nevada. People who live in colder climates are naturally more used to same than those who don't and will need heat less, but cold and dry doesn't feel as cold as cool, damp and windy. I ski and almost always drive in shorts, often shirtless, but if the temp's in the low '60s or below I've probably got the heat on (I have heated seats, but in shorts they don't warm the tops of my legs, and the circulation in my toes is poor due to some frostbite damage several decades back). Heated seats and wheel are great, but they don't do it for everyone, and don't keep your face warm. Not everyone wants to wear a watch cap/toque/balaclava/full face mask while they drive!
 
America does not lack for people who live in cold climates and keep their homes, cars and workplaces warmed up into the 70s during the winter. My New Mexico raised daughter loves to gossip about a room mate from WS who fights with her non stop to turn up the thermostat because she wants to wander around in her T-shirt and shorts.
 
SageBrush said:
America does not lack for people who live in cold climates and keep their homes, cars and workplaces warmed up into the 70s during the winter. My New Mexico raised daughter loves to gossip about a room mate from WS who fights with her non stop to turn up the thermostat because she wants to wander around in her T-shirt and shorts.

My heat is shut off as soon as it's above freezing in my little duplex.

Never goes below 50 with the heat off, I do enjoy a hot shower in the morning, though I take it military style starting with cold water and pretty short.

If I'm sick or it's rainy / dreary I turn it up but usually not.

My gas + electric bill is usually under $10 a month (excluding the $50 of taxes and fees I pay regardless)

I truly live in a sustainable way, my energy use is below the first percentile, yet I still have electronic toys, cook most of my meals the old way.

My goal has been to micro home and off grid for a long while .

3-5 months a year it's higher since it's not avoidable.

My water bill is usually for .1 units of water every three months which is the smallest unit they meter.
 
rmay635703 said:
SageBrush said:
America does not lack for people who live in cold climates and keep their homes, cars and workplaces warmed up into the 70s during the winter. My New Mexico raised daughter loves to gossip about a room mate from WS who fights with her non stop to turn up the thermostat because she wants to wander around in her T-shirt and shorts.

My
If I'm
My
I
My goal
My
And you think you represent the majority, thus your conclusion about heat pumps.
 
SageBrush said:
rmay635703 said:
SageBrush said:
America does not lack for people who live in cold climates and keep their homes, cars and workplaces warmed up into the 70s during the winter. My New Mexico raised daughter loves to gossip about a room mate from WS who fights with her non stop to turn up the thermostat because she wants to wander around in her T-shirt and shorts.

My
If I'm
My
I
My goal
My
And you think you represent the majority, thus your conclusion about heat pumps.
It's not that a heat pump isn't nifty but climate here dictates it would be of use what , 30 days a year? Wisconsin is either hot or cold, that short period in fall and spring where things are crisp and cool is just that "short"

And No I represent how Americans once were and likely will end up in the future, my Grandmother and her 3 children lived how I do into the 70's not because they had to but because it was prudent, my mother has lived with 30's era values her whole life, reusing everything.
if the majority lived the way I do we would not need oil imports, or Chinese imports, we would have no debt, no need for war, few landfills and we could live within the constraints of our local environment.

I have a distaste for people who waste tremendous amounts of energy efficiently and live green washed lives justifying improved tech just so they can waste more.

Don't get me wrong, I drive about 18000 miles a year which is a waste for my pastime and work but with a heavy handed mix of 200mpge, 70mpg insight and lastly 45mpg 4 passenger vehicle half of the miles with 1 or 2 passengers in every case I'm still using less energy per person doing it than someone who drives 3000 miles a year.
My goal is to start moving more miles to human power but I'm not there yet.

I do not believe most Americans realize the tremendous gifts they waste everyday that are likely here for the moment but will be gone for our grandchildren .

There are still those like me, some can be found here
Ecomodder.com

My point is that not everyone needs an expensive device that should be optional.

Just as I believe Chevy is very short sighted in not including exhaust heat recovery as an option on the cold weather equipped "Volt", which (usuing the Malibu hybrid as an example) would add +10% onto to summer gas FE and +20% onto winter or more.

Ah well
 
Fwiw, I am a lot like you, and I have yet to use the heat pump of my Prius Prime. I may never. But I recognize the efficiency gain for all those people who *will* heat their cars while driving in EV in ambient temperatures of ~ 15F - 60F. And if it is true that the heat pump is a more efficient defroster than cabin heating, it is even better and useful for me too.
 
Per IEVS, May U.S. Prime sales were once more #1 with 1,908, beating out the Volt (1,817) this month by 91(vs. 12 last month). Sales are apparently still supply-constrained, as per Jay Cole time on lot is apparently something like 7 days.
 
Via IEVS:
In May, Toyota Prius Prime Sales In Japan Went Through The Roof
http://insideevs.com/in-may-toyota-prius-prime-sales-in-japan-went-through-the-roof/

Toyota Prius Plug-In Hybrid (AKA the Prius Prime in U.S.) set a new sales record last month in Japan, obliterating all previous “best efforts” by other OEMs. New registrations surged to 5,369, which was a third of the total Prius family sales. Japanese sources reports that higher incentives (from May) influenced the results (after they sank April). . . .
 
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