Volkswagen Group Massive Emissions Fraud Scheme

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I had looked into how much damage automatic state/stop tech caused compared to a traditional engine a while back. Essentially, everything I found pointed to the fact that the jury was still out since it's still relatively new and there hasn't been enough data collected. However, it did show that the average number of automotive starts was increased exponentially (like from a few thousand over the life of the car to well into the hundreds of thousands of starts with the start/stop tech) with the systems. Again, those were based off of averages and I honestly cannot remember where I found that at. Basically what I found was that there really has not appeared to be a problem with the tech thus far.

As for hybrid reliability, Toyota seems to have done it right as I have not read any significant problems. Honda, on the other hand, has not. I bought my wife a used '09 Honda Civic Hybrid after doing a little bit of research (not enough as it turned out) and two days after we bought it, the battery pack died. Luckily for us it was a significant problem that Honda was aware of and Honda had extended the warranties on them to 100,000 miles. So we had a happy ending in that the dealer replaced it no questions asked. If it had not been for that warranty coverage, we would have been hosed as a new pack cost something like $1000 or more. However, given this issue with Honda, it does show there is a potential issue down the road. It's also one of the reasons why I have reservations about EVs in general because if I were to pick up a used Leaf (since I cannot afford new), there is no way I would ever be able to cover the cost of a replacement battery pack.
 
tattoogunman said:
It's also one of the reasons why I have reservations about EVs in general because if I were to pick up a used Leaf (since I cannot afford new), there is no way I would ever be able to cover the cost of a replacement battery pack.
One lesser known trick is to put aside the money you save in fueling for the day you want a new pack.

I bought my used LEAF for ~ $8000. A replacement pack costs $6000.
That should be good for 10 years for most people, or about $120 a month. If you save around $50 a month on fuel, an equivalent ICE vehicle would have to cost around $70 a month.
 
SageBrush said:
tattoogunman said:
It's also one of the reasons why I have reservations about EVs in general because if I were to pick up a used Leaf (since I cannot afford new), there is no way I would ever be able to cover the cost of a replacement battery pack.
One lesser known trick is to put aside the money you save in fueling for the day you want a new pack.

I bought my used LEAF for ~ $8000. A replacement pack costs $6000.
That should be good for 10 years for most people, or about $120 a month. If you save around $50 a month on fuel, an equivalent ICE vehicle would have to cost around $70 a month.

Not a bad idea, but I have been playing around with my numbers the last few days regarding maintenance, fueling, etc. Because I drive my current car so little as it is (Fiat 500), I do my own work on the car, and it is very economical (36-38mpg), I figure any money I would realistically save in fuel costs would be offset by how much my insurance would go up if I were to get an EV.

I have been looking at the Volt, Bolt, and Leaf and all of them will make my insurance go up anywhere from $500 to $600 a year. As it is, I am only spending approximately $500 to $600 a year in gas (at current prices), so I would essentially be at a break even point if I got an EV. In all actuality, it would actually cost me more to get an EV right now because I would end up having to pay for my electricity to charge the car and that would push me past the break even point when comparing my current car to an EV. Granted, my required maintenance would go down, but I am only spending around $50 to $100 a year for maintenance on my Fiat, so that isn't a huge savings.

There are very few public charging stations in my area. The only chargers available on my campus (born again college student in my 40's) require the "premium" parking permit (which is BS) to use and that would also cost me more money since I usually park out in the nosebleed area and walk a few miles a day on campus.

Here is an approximate (stress approximate/average here) breakdown of my yearly car usage for reference - again, I am sort of an extreme conservative case at the moment:

Miles driven per year - appx. 7000

Average fuel fill ups - appx. 16 fill ups per year (I only have to get gas every 3-4 weeks) at a cost of appx. $500 (that's at a rounded up average of $30 a fill up since the car requires premium, but there are times where I don't fill the car all the way up)

Maintenance - on average, maybe $50 a year for oil/filter change since I am only averaging one a year. I have had to replace two tires and the spark plugs if you want to factor that in (still not much).

Current Insurance (for my car, not including the wife's car) - $1450 per year (it's high where I live thanks to this area being in the top 10 for accidents in America. Could get a bit cheaper, but I also carry full coverage and gap insurance).

So playing around with those numbers, on a very loose average, I am spending around $2500 a year on gas/maintenance. If I replace this car with an EV, I would save the $500/year on gas, but that would be negated by insurance going up. Now, the maintenance costs would go away (sans tires eventually), but that would still only be saving me around $50 a year or so and I would then have to factor in what electric would cost me (not much, but I am still not going to see fantastical savings).

This is why the whole EV thing has been driving me nuts. I'm the ideal candidate for one, it's just not cost effective for me at the moment to make the switch. I'm due to graduate at the end of this year and more than likely I am still going to be working at someplace within a ten mile round trip commute from my home. I just cannot justify the expense and that isn't even factoring in the purchase price of the EV to begin with.
 
It seems to me that as a college student (regardless of age) with a working car, buying any car new or used, gas or electric, should be off the table. Use your Fiat to get around. When you graduate and return to the work force, re-evaluate your needs against what is available then. Yes, I understand the temptation to move to an EV. But it just doesn't sound like you are in a good position to do so right now.
 
And *additional* car will cost more in insurance -- that much is clear and not related to EV.
So either buy the EV as a *replacement* for one of the cars you own,
OR buy a used EV with low insurance value and dump the gap and collision/Comp

The last choice works if you are a safe driver.
I insure our LEAF for about $18 a month. This includes 1M/300k liability, and uninsured motorist (UI)

Your problem isn't the cheap LEAF, it is getting out of your Fiat.
 
For the OP, if you've got a round trip commute of 10 miles or less and don't need to travel on freeways to do it, consider a bicycle. A bike remains the most energy-efficient land transportation yet invented, will save you far more than any car, have zero emissions (depending on your diet ;) ), and be better for your health.

If you don't want to provide all the energy to propel yourself, get a pedelec (Pedal Electric) which will still cost you far less than a car, can be easily charged off any 120V/15A receptacle, and is light enough to take indoors. If you've got to carry it up/down stairs at home/work, consider a model where the battery can be easily detached and taken with you to charge. If interested, see this thread for a start: http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=10256

Another option is an electric scooter or motorcycle. In any case, keep the 500 for long distance and inclement weather. And if you do start to ride to work and begin using your car intermittently, consider changing over to Pay-As-You-Drive insurance if it's offered in your area. As my car often sits in my driveway for weeks at a time, switching to PAYD has saved me about half of what my insurance used to cost, and gives me an extra financial incentive to walk/bike/use public transit at every opportunity.
 
IssacZachary said:
I'm really hoping that a bunch of hybrid owner's will respond to this post and state that they have 200k, 300k, or more miles on their hybrids and are still running strong without ever having any major issues.
http://prius.wikia.com/wiki/Lifespan/Operating_costs has numerous examples of long-lived Priuses.

I though this was old news: https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/researchers-find-smoking-gun-in-volkswagen-emissions-cheating-code/ but apparently was published on 5/24.

It contains a pointer to a paper on this: https://www.ieee-security.org/TC/SP2017/papers/101.pdf. I've only skimmed bits of this. Hope it's not a repost.
 
cwerdna said:
IssacZachary said:
I'm really hoping that a bunch of hybrid owner's will respond to this post and state that they have 200k, 300k, or more miles on their hybrids and are still running strong without ever having any major issues.
http://prius.wikia.com/wiki/Lifespan/Operating_costs has numerous examples of long-lived Priuses.
Thanks!

That does help change my perspective towards Prii, and even makes me think about trading my Leaf and VW diesel in for one.

Financially, the Leaf and the VW Golf diesel make a great pair. The Leaf me cost $8,000 and the VW $600. I get between 2.5 to 4.5 m/kWh in the Leaf around town and between 50 to 60mpg in the VW on the highway. Both are very low maintenance and very reliable. Basically I change the oil and air filter in the VW once a year and the brake fluid in both ever other year.

The Prius would get much better emissions than the 1985 VW diesel, hands down. Pricewise, I'm betting I could find a use Prius for around the price my Leaf and my Golf cost together, $8,600 (not that I would ever find a direct trade, although I could try.) Fuel-mileagewise, an older used Prius won't be getting between 2.5 to 4.5 miles/kWh (50 to 100 mpg-e?) around town. But it might get close to 50 to 60mpg on the highway, plus the fact I'd be paying insurance on only one car. Depending on the needed octane, I might be paying more or less per gallon than I do for diesel. (It's right now between regular and mid-grade in price here.)

I do wonder how the cold here would affect a Prius. I get as low as 2.5 m/kWh in my Leaf in the winter. The diesel is terrible at heating the cabin around town; the engine will cool down with the heater on unless I'm on the highway. We have a long winter. Hopefully a Prius won't get less than 30mpg around town at around -30°F.

I need to start looking though. If I could find a Prius, let's say, in the >$5,000 range I'd just replace my diesel and use the Prius for long trips and the Leaf for around town. That being said, any modern gasoline (or non-VW diesel with good emissions) that gets great fuel mileage on the highway (at least 45mpg) and wouldn't price me out of keeping my Leaf would definitely be on my radar.


cwerdna said:
I though this was old news: https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/researchers-find-smoking-gun-in-volkswagen-emissions-cheating-code/ but apparently was published on 5/24.

It contains a pointer to a paper on this: https://www.ieee-security.org/TC/SP2017/papers/101.pdf. I've only skimmed bits of this. Hope it's not a repost.
Yes. Very interesting. As this points out it's the NOx emissions that are the problem in modern diesels. With diesel running super lean, it's very difficult to control NOx emissions. Hopefully an economic, yet effective solution will be found. Such a solution wouldn't only improve diesel emissions, but could be used to improve gasoline emissions and efficiency, since in order to lower NOx emissions, gasoline has to run richer than what would be the most efficient.

For an example, if there were a way to economically filter all the nitrogen out of the air. NOx could not form in the engine. The higher O2 saturation could potentially eliminate all particulate, HC and CO emissions in both diesel and gasoline engines. If the O2 saturation would be too high (burning the oil off of the cylinder walls), it could be reduced using cooled exhaust gasses. But by that time hopefully we'd be using ceramic engines that don't need lubrication.

I've often though of strapping an O2 tank to my diesel and deleting the air intake, only mixing cooled exhaust gases via a large diesel EGR cooler with the oxygen from the O2 tank.

Or better yet. Skip ICE entirely and go with MAGLEV roads.
 
cwerdna said:
IssacZachary said:
I'm really hoping that a bunch of hybrid owner's will respond to this post and state that they have 200k, 300k, or more miles on their hybrids and are still running strong without ever having any major issues.
http://prius.wikia.com/wiki/Lifespan/Operating_costs has numerous examples of long-lived Priuses.

I though this was old news: https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/researchers-find-smoking-gun-in-volkswagen-emissions-cheating-code/ but apparently was published on 5/24.

It contains a pointer to a paper on this: https://www.ieee-security.org/TC/SP2017/papers/101.pdf. I've only skimmed bits of this. Hope it's not a repost.
No, this is new. GCC has a similar article, which includes a bit more detail without having to wade through the IEEE paper:
International team uncovers mechanisms of VW, Fiat software defeat device code
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2017/05/20170524-ucsd.html
 
Via ABG:
Porsche accused of using steering inputs to cheat on emissions tests
http://www.autoblog.com/2017/06/05/porsche-steering-inputs-emissions-cheat-allegations/
Last week, the German transport authority KBA announced it was investigating Porsche and Audi for cheating on emissions tests. Wirtschaftswoche, a German economic publication, says the KBA's investigation focuses on a system that uses steering inputs to determine whether or not the car is being tested. While Audi has recalled 24,000 models, Automotive News reports that currently Porsche denies any wrongdoing.

According to KBA, if the affected cars measured a steering input of 15 degrees or more, they would emit excess nitrogen oxide emissions. It's important to note that this is different than Volkswagen diesel CO2 emissions. The cars broke European strict emissions standards, so it's unclear what impact this has on cars in the US. Audi has recalled the A7 and A8, though it's unclear which Porsche models the KBA is investigating. . . .
 
Via aBG:
VW execs knew the potential cost of its diesel emissions scandal a month before disclosure
http://www.autoblog.com/2017/07/09/vw-diesel-emissions-cost-disclosure/

A Volkswagen manager told the then chief executive and other managers that the carmaker's diesel emissions cheating could cost up to $18.5 billion, almost a month before investors were informed, German newspaper Bild am Sonntag reported. Investors were told about VW's systematic emissions test cheating using illegal software on Sept. 18 2015, when the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) informed markets.

The Sunday newspaper Bild am Sonntag reported that Oliver Schmidt, a VW executive who was arrested in Miami in January this year, told the then CEO Martin Winterkorn about possible financial implications at an Aug. 25, 2015 presentation. German securities law requires firms publish any market sensitive news in a timely fashion. A probe by German prosecutors includes investigating whether VW disclosed details promptly.

The newspaper said Schmidt informed Winterkorn about the maximum possible penalty at the meeting that was also attended by Heinz-Jakob Neusser, VW's development chief at the time, and Herbert Diess, who still works as VW's brand chief. Bild am Sonntag cited U.S. investigation documents. . . .
 
GRA said:
Via ABG:
Porsche accused of using steering inputs to cheat on emissions tests
http://www.autoblog.com/2017/06/05/porsche-steering-inputs-emissions-cheat-allegations/
Last week, the German transport authority KBA announced it was investigating Porsche and Audi for cheating on emissions tests. Wirtschaftswoche, a German economic publication, says the KBA's investigation focuses on a system that uses steering inputs to determine whether or not the car is being tested. While Audi has recalled 24,000 models, Automotive News reports that currently Porsche denies any wrongdoing.

According to KBA, if the affected cars measured a steering input of 15 degrees or more, they would emit excess nitrogen oxide emissions. It's important to note that this is different than Volkswagen diesel CO2 emissions. The cars broke European strict emissions standards, so it's unclear what impact this has on cars in the US. Audi has recalled the A7 and A8, though it's unclear which Porsche models the KBA is investigating. . . .
I don't seem to understand the article. It seems to indicate that the VW diesel scandal was about emitting too much CO2 but not too much NOx. What?!
 
IssacZachary said:
GRA said:
Via ABG:
Porsche accused of using steering inputs to cheat on emissions tests
http://www.autoblog.com/2017/06/05/porsche-steering-inputs-emissions-cheat-allegations/
Last week, the German transport authority KBA announced it was investigating Porsche and Audi for cheating on emissions tests. Wirtschaftswoche, a German economic publication, says the KBA's investigation focuses on a system that uses steering inputs to determine whether or not the car is being tested. While Audi has recalled 24,000 models, Automotive News reports that currently Porsche denies any wrongdoing.

According to KBA, if the affected cars measured a steering input of 15 degrees or more, they would emit excess nitrogen oxide emissions. It's important to note that this is different than Volkswagen diesel CO2 emissions. The cars broke European strict emissions standards, so it's unclear what impact this has on cars in the US. Audi has recalled the A7 and A8, though it's unclear which Porsche models the KBA is investigating. . . .
I don't seem to understand the article. It seems to indicate that the VW diesel scandal was about emitting too much CO2 but not too much NOx. What?!
Different countries, different emissions violations.
 
Via GCC:
US charges Audi manager with conspiracy to cheat US emissions tests; sacrificing NOx control for a sound system
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2017/07/20170710-audi.html

. . . Giovanni Pamio, 60, an Italian citizen, is charged with conspiracy to defraud the US, wire fraud, and violation of the Clean Air Act. Pamio was formerly head of Thermodynamics within Audi’s Diesel Engine Development Department in Neckarsulm, Germany. According to the complaint, from in or about 2006 until in or about November 2015, Pamio led a team of engineers responsible for designing emissions control systems to meet emissions standards, including for nitrogen oxides (NOx), for diesel vehicles in the US. The complaint cited a cooperating witness (CW1)—an Audi employee who works in Audi’s Diesel Engine Development Department—as well as contemporaneous documentation in the Statement of Probable Cause.

Beginning in or about 2006, Audi was designing the new 3.0 liter diesel engine that would be the cornerstone for its passenger diesel vehicle sales in the US. The 3.0 liter diesel engine was ultimately placed in certain VW, Audi, and Porsche diesel vehicles sold in the United States for MY 09 through MY 16.

According to CW1 and the documentation, Pamio and his co-conspirators realized they could not calibrate a diesel engine that would meet the stricter NOx emissions standards that would become effective in 2007 while staying within the design constraints imposed by other departments at the company.

  • According to CW1, and as corroborated by contemporaneous documentation, the proposed Audi 3.0 liter diesel engine employed Selective Catalytic Reduction (“SCR”) technology to reduce NOx emissions. As part of the SCR technology, exhaust stream emissions were dosed with a mist of a urea substance, commonly known as “AdBlue,” which converted NOx into nitrogen, water, and small amounts of carbon dioxide. The initial SCR design required a certain amount of AdBlue be stored onboard the vehicle to reduce NOx emissions to legal limits and reach a 10,000 mile service interval for refilling. The requisite tank size for onboard storage was believed by certain Audi employees to interfere with features considered to be attractive to customers, such as a high-end sound system.

    According to CW1, and as corroborated by contemporaneous documentation, as a result, Audi employees, acting at the direction of Pamio and his co-conspirators, designed and implemented software functions, described below as a “dosing strategy” and a “warm-up function,” to cheat the standard US emissions tests. These functions constituted defeat devices.

    —Criminal Complaint, USA v. Zaccheo Giovanni Pamio. . . .
 
Via IEVS:
Volkswagen Begins Installing Chargers Under Electrify America Plan
http://insideevs.com/volkswagen-begins-installing-chargers-under-electrify-america-plan/

. . . In total, eight units were installed in the Washington, D.C. area last month:

  • Pentagon City Fashion Centre in Arlington, Virginia;
    Ashburn Village Center in Ashburn, Virginia;
    Leesburg Corner Premium Outlets in Leesburg, Virginia;
    Newgate Shopping Center in Centreville, Virginia;
    Stonebridge at Potomac Town Center in Woodbridge, Virginia;
    Dulles Town Circle in Dulles, Virginia;
    Bowie Town Center in Bowie, Maryland;
    St. Charles Towne Center in Waldorf, Maryland.

By September, 50 more stations are to be available in 10 metro markets: Boston, Chicago, Denver, Houston, Miami, New York, Philadelphia, Portland (Oregon), Seattle and Washington D.C.

Currently Volkswagen is installing dual-head (CCS Combo / CHAdeMO) units, with a 50 kW output.

Later there will be also 150 kW chargers in metros, and up to 350kW charging along highways – a step change in the EV charging infrastructure we are really looking forward too (as well as EVs that can actually handle that kind of energy transfer). Suppliers of the hardware today are BTC Power and ABB.

Chargers are connected to the EVgo charging network, however Electrify America hints at its own network in the future. . . .
The above implies that they are putting in single units at each location, which we know is pretty much doomed to failure, as no one will trust them to be available when needed. At least they do seem aware of the need for multiple high-power charging stalls on inter-city routes, as the plan calls for 4-10 150 and/or 320kW stalls per station, spaced an average of 66 miles and no more than 120 miles apart. Direct link to VW's
"National ZEV
Investment
Plan: Cycle 1

is here: file:///C:/Users/Patron/Downloads/National ZEV Investment Plan.pdf
 
Via ABG:
Daimler sold 1 million cars with excess emissions, according to search warrant
http://www.autoblog.com/2017/07/12/daimler-excess-diesel-emissions-report/

BERLIN - German carmaker Daimler has been accused of selling over a million cars with excessive emissions in Europe and the United States, Sueddeutsche Zeitung newspaper said on Wednesday, citing a search warrant issued by a Stuttgart court. Two months ago, Stuttgart prosecutors searched Daimler sites in Germany following allegations of false advertising and the possible wrongful manipulation of exhaust gas treatment systems in diesel cars. The Stuttgart local court's search warrant triggered the searches on May 23, Sueddeutsche Zeitung said.

According to that document, more than 1 million cars with excessive emissions, including various luxury Mercedes-Benz models, were sold in Europe and the United States between 2008 and 2016, said Sueddeutsche Zeitung, which researched the matter with regional broadcasters WDR and NDR. . . .
 
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