LEAF 2 : What we know so far (2018 or later?)

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Here is some good guesses from what has already been revealed

1. Will the Leaf have uncomfortable seats?
No
2. Will the Leaf have cheap hard plastic interior?
No
3. Will the Leaf be bigger?
It will certainly be wider, and probably longer
4. Will the Leaf have better performance?
0-60 probably be 7-8 sec. not as fast as Bolt or Tesla, but respectable
5. Will the Leaf have higher efficiency? Better aerodynamics? Cost less per mile driven?
Probably
6. Stop and go cruise control? Adaptive cruise control?
Yes
7. Embedded android auto with always listening Google Assistant
Android Auto & CarPlay
8. Navigation system?
Probably, but why when you have AA and Apple CP.
9. Luxury features like multiple fast USB chargers throughout cabin?
Maybe
10. 150 kW fast charging speed?
No not yet. No supporting infrastructure in the US yet. Maybe in 2020.
11. Better utilization of floor space? Don't take up valuable space with a shifter.
The car will have a full length center console.
12. Dual drive system?
No
13. Lane keep assist? ProPilot.
Yes
14. Very unlikely, but would be nice if Nissan took the dealer hassle out and allowed ordering online.
Rumor has it that first buyers will be able to reserve online, but will still need to complete the purchase at a dealer.
 
Several reviews are now available from the ProPilot Assist Preview event.

The best one I've read is linked below:

Nissan ProPilot Assist Preview - It's Automated But Not Self-Driving

...While we won’t get to see the new Leaf sans camouflage until September 5, Nissan did invite a group of media to its Farmington Hills, Mich. engineering center to sample some Rogues equipped with the ProPilot Assist system. Nissan calls this a level 2 (L2) automation system because it is capable of doing coordinated longitudinal and lateral control. That means it can handle acceleration, braking and steering. What it doesn’t do is let the driver climb into the back seat to take a nap, or relax and watch a movie.

...the Nissan system explicitly requires drivers to keep at least one hand on the wheel at all times. A torque sensor in the steering wheel looks for small motions indicative of a driver holding the wheel or resistance to automatic steering motions. If the system decides that the driver doesn’t have a reasonably firm grip on the wheel after five to ten seconds it gives an audible warning and flashes an alert in the instrument cluster. Five seconds later, the alerts get progressively more insistent.

Ten seconds after that, it will automatically pulse the brakes a couple of times trying to get your attention. After 25 to 30 seconds with no sign the driver is responding, ProPilot will start slowing the vehicle and when speed drops below 40 mph, the hazard lights are turned on. Without intervention from the driver, the car will come to a complete stop in its lane...

If you try to nudge the car over to one side or the either without a turn signal on, you’ll feel the system trying to steer back to the center of the lane. Like other lane keeping systems, it’s relatively easy to overpower since it is designed as an assist, not to take over from the human driver. The forward facing radar tracks the vehicle ahead and maintains a consistent gap up to whatever speed you set. The graphics in the instrument cluster show when a vehicle is detected within range and the lane markers go from grey to green when markings are detected consistently on both sides of the car.

From a functional standpoint, the system seemed to work very well within the constraints of what it is designed to do. When lanes were detected, ProPilot did a very good job of keeping the Rogue tracking the center without bouncing back and forth. The stretch of I-696 north of Detroit that we tested on features of a number of curves of varying radius as well as overpasses that saw us go from bright sunshine to dark shadow...

Based on our early preview, ProPilot Assist is a good step in the direction of making driving in traffic or long trips easier and safer. As Carlos Ghosn promised earlier this year, it will get better every year until it reaches at least L4. But it’s not self-driving yet and Nissan wants customers to understand that before they try to do anything foolish.
Click to expand...
https://www.forbes.com/sites/samabuelsamid/2017/07/21/nissan-propilot-assist-preview-its-automated-but-not-self-driving/#47702d6c568b

ProPilot is not on my must-have list at this point, but it probably would be if I drove most of my miles on freeways, and especially so if much of that freeway time was spent in heavy traffic.
 
I would rather have a 40kWhr battery with a 150kW charging rate than a 60kW battery with a standard charging rate.
 
Nissan keeps stating that ProPilot will keep getting better over time. My question to Nissan is: will the 2018 Leaf be software upgradable or will the improvements only be for newer model years? I don't care if it's not OTA, or free. I just want to know if I can buy a 2018 Leaf and get the improved ProPilot in 2020.

From Nissan's history, I'm guessing you'd have to buy a whole new Leaf.
 
webb14leafs said:
I would rather have a 40kWhr battery with a 150kW charging rate than a 60kW battery with a standard charging rate.
Click to expand...

And where would you find a 150kW charger to use? There is only one unit in the US that is Sandboxed. Until there is public charging infrastructure to use that capability, it's just a boat anchor.
 
GetOffYourGas said:
Nissan keeps stating that ProPilot will keep getting better over time. My question to Nissan is: will the 2018 Leaf be software upgradable or will the improvements only be for newer model years? ...
Click to expand...
Nissan is using Mobileye technology and mobile eye says new chips are required for increased levels of autonomy. Chips used in Tesla AP1 where eyeq3. EyeQ4 is coming, and EyeQ5 is needed for sleeping in your car while it drives you.
https://www.mobileye.com/our-technology/evolution-eyeq-chip/
Quote:
The EyeQ®4 is the most advanced application-specific vision computing SoC currently available on the market, with a computing performance, as mentioned, eight times higher than its predecessor, the EyeQ®3. It has the capacity to process data from more than eight camera sensors, in addition to radars and LiDARs, processing 2.5 trillion operations per second while drawing only 3-5 Watts. The EyeQ®4 will launch in car models starting late 2017.
 
DanCar said:
GetOffYourGas said:
Nissan keeps stating that ProPilot will keep getting better over time. My question to Nissan is: will the 2018 Leaf be software upgradable or will the improvements only be for newer model years? ...
Click to expand...
Nissan is using Mobileye technology and mobile eye says new chips are required for increased levels of autonomy. Chips used in Tesla AP1 where eyeq3. EyeQ4 is coming, and EyeQ5 is needed for sleeping in your car while it drives you.
https://www.mobileye.com/our-technology/evolution-eyeq-chip/
Quote:
The EyeQ®4 is the most advanced application-specific vision computing SoC currently available on the market, with a computing performance, as mentioned, eight times higher than its predecessor, the EyeQ®3. It has the capacity to process data from more than eight camera sensors, in addition to radars and LiDARs, processing 2.5 trillion operations per second while drawing only 3-5 Watts. The EyeQ®4 will launch in car models starting late 2017.
Click to expand...

That's one of the reasons, i.e. increased processor capability, that Tesla switched from using MobilEye processors to Nvidia
processors in late 2016. Tesla charged owners for that upgrade. Updated processors (hardware vs firmware) will usually
be required as major changes, i.e. the AI capabilities, increase. So the implication over time will be that OEMs may have minor
firmware re-flashes (tweaks), e.g. OTA, but major upgrades will usually occur with model changes.
 
OrientExpress said:
webb14leafs said:
I would rather have a 40kWhr battery with a 150kW charging rate than a 60kW battery with a standard charging rate.
Click to expand...

And where would you find a 150kW charger to use? There is only one unit in the US that is Sandboxed. Until there is public charging infrastructure to use that capability, it's just a boat anchor.
Click to expand...

Not sure what kind of point you're trying to make, but yes, you are correct that there are not a lot of 150kW chargers yet.

I still prefer a smaller battery with faster recharge, and this is the direction I would like to see the industry go. Use smaller batteries to keep the price of EVs down and upgrade the charging infrastructure. If you bought a brand new car today and in 2 years there were a number of 150kW chargers that you couldn't take advantage of, you might be a little upset.
 
webb14leafs said:
OrientExpress said:
webb14leafs said:
I would rather have a 40kWhr battery with a 150kW charging rate than a 60kW battery with a standard charging rate.
Click to expand...

And where would you find a 150kW charger to use? There is only one unit in the US that is Sandboxed. Until there is public charging infrastructure to use that capability, it's just a boat anchor.
Click to expand...

Not sure what kind of point you're trying to make, but yes, you are correct that there are not a lot of 150kW chargers yet.

I still prefer a smaller battery with faster recharge, and this is the direction I would like to see the industry go. Use smaller batteries to keep the price of EVs down and upgrade the charging infrastructure. If you bought a brand new car today and in 2 years there were a number of 150kW chargers that you couldn't take advantage of, you might be a little upset.
Click to expand...

I had a 2012 SL for a full year before the first QCs started showing up here. Some people who opted out of the QC port were a little upset then.
Higher power QCs are definitely in the works so having a car that can use them will be advantageous when they arrive.
If only Nissan was as proactive as Tesla in that regard.
 
webb14leafs said:
I would rather have a 40kWhr battery with a 150kW charging rate than a 60kW battery with a standard charging rate.
Click to expand...
While it would be nice to have that sort of charging rate on a small battery, with current battery technology 150 kW would damage a 40 kWh battery, even with a robust cooling system. Maybe someday with new battery chemistry, but not likely anytime soon IMO.

That is one of the advantages of the bigger batteries: they can be fast charged more quickly — think "miles of range per minute" — without damage. It isn't just about range, it is about DCFC speed to make the next leg of a road trip (or to charge enough to do the day's local driving, in the case of someone without access to home or workplace charging).
 
dgpcolorado said:
That is one of the advantages of the bigger batteries: they can be fast charged more quickly — think "miles of range per minute" — without damage.
Click to expand...

Simple, more parallel cells (greater Ahrs) to sink (distribute) the higher charging current, but still limited by cell chemistry.
 
dgpcolorado said:
webb14leafs said:
I would rather have a 40kWhr battery with a 150kW charging rate than a 60kW battery with a standard charging rate.
Click to expand...
While it would be nice to have that sort of charging rate on a small battery, with current battery technology 150 kW would damage a 40 kWh battery, even with a robust cooling system. Maybe someday with new battery chemistry, but not likely anytime soon IMO.

That is one of the advantages of the bigger batteries: they can be fast charged more quickly — think "miles of range per minute" — without damage. It isn't just about range, it is about DCFC speed to make the next leg of a road trip (or to charge enough to do the day's local driving, in the case of someone without access to home or workplace charging).
Click to expand...

Tesla is supposedly upgrading it's supercharger network to a 300kW plus charging rate. There are several Teslas with 60kWhr batteries. Why doesn't the same argument hold for this ratio? Cooling technology?
 
webb14leafs said:
Tesla is supposedly upgrading it's supercharger network to a 300kW plus charging rate. There are several Teslas with 60kWhr batteries. Why doesn't the same argument hold for this ratio? Cooling technology?
Click to expand...
Tesla's with smaller batteries already charge slower at SuperChargers compared to cars with larger batteries. E.g., my 75D tops out at 99kW compared to 120kW for those with an 85/90 or larger.
 
webb14leafs said:
<snip>
Why doesn't the same argument hold for this ratio? Cooling technology?
Click to expand...
You need to read up on the several factors. Start here but lot of places to read and learn:
http://teslapedia.org/model-s/tesla-driver/understanding-charging-rates/

Also related is how the pack is arranged. i.e. 120kW mentioned above. Info via:

https://forums.tesla.com/forum/forums/400-kw-charging
georgehawley.fl.us | December 6, 2016
Haven't encountered a Supercharger operating over 120 kW yet.

The limits charging power that a battery pack can accept is the maximum amount of current the manufacturer is willing to tolerate in the individual cells and the way the cells are wired together for charging purposes.

Panasonic recommends 2 amperes maximum at 4.2 volts per cell for charging the 18650 cells used by Tesla. Tesla charges them with up to 4 amperes at 4.2 volts. In the 85 and 90 kWh packs Tesla has 96 strings of 74 cells in parallel. 74 X 4 amperes = 296 amperes maximum. 96 X 4.2 volts = 403.2 volts. 403.2 X 296 = 119.3. kW. [note the 120 kW mentioned above]

For a Supercharger to charge a 60 kWh pack, the SC regulates the voltage and current to suit the smaller batter pack configuration. Likewise a 145 kW-capable SC hooked up to a 90 kWh pack.
Click to expand...
 
Dooglas said:
scottf200 said:
Related to your 40 kWh comment. A 60 is 'required' to compete with the Bolt's range for sure.
Click to expand...
I consistently get 120 miles or more on a 30 kwh battery so 160 miles or so on a 40 kwh battery sounds about like what I would expect (though I'm sure the EPA rating will be less than that). And it isn't clear to me that Nissan is "required" to compete directly with the Bolt. A 160 mile vehicle at ten thousand dollars below the price of the Bolt (and a better built vehicle at that), is likely to be a viable choice IMO.
Click to expand...
I agree. Many will shop on price and $20K (WAG) for 160 mi will probably generate more customers than $40K for 250 mi.
 
The range of the 2017 Leaf is just adequate for me, so a boost to 140 miles or so, with better headlights and other small but important improvements, will be all I need. Lease price and residual are what I'll be looking at. I may even lease an SL, if they finally offer it with a cloth interior.

Which raises an interesting sub-topic: options and pricing. Are they going to keep the options and segregation by model (i.e. leather only in the SL, with no cloth option) the same, are are they going to tweak them? Will Premium Package be the same as now, or will the semi-autonomous driving features change the way the options are grouped?
 
Reddy said:
Dooglas said:
scottf200 said:
Related to your 40 kWh comment. A 60 is 'required' to compete with the Bolt's range for sure.
Click to expand...
I consistently get 120 miles or more on a 30 kwh battery so 160 miles or so on a 40 kwh battery sounds about like what I would expect (though I'm sure the EPA rating will be less than that). And it isn't clear to me that Nissan is "required" to compete directly with the Bolt. A 160 mile vehicle at ten thousand dollars below the price of the Bolt (and a better built vehicle at that), is likely to be a viable choice IMO.
Click to expand...
I agree. Many will shop on price and $20K (WAG) for 160 mi will probably generate more customers than $40K for 250 mi.
Click to expand...

Yah. Same with us. 250 km (whatever that is in miles) would be more than adequate even in long term degaradation. With the speed limits in our province we already get 200 so it won't take much to get to 250 km. 40 KWH should do it.
 
GetOffYourGas said:
From Nissan's history, I'm guessing you'd have to buy a whole new Leaf.
Click to expand...

Isn't that true of just about every make except Tesla. Didn't Tesla also have it rather expensive to upgrade to their autopilot capability if you had an earlier model due to the hardware impacts? This aspect is changing so rapidly that I would be surprised that any major upgrade in capability would be available without switching to a newer model. The software updates are likely to be minor refinements to the functionality the car was sold with. And besides, they always want to have something that makes the new model year a bit more attractive than the prior.
 
scottf200 said:
webb14leafs said:
<snip>
Why doesn't the same argument hold for this ratio? Cooling technology?
Click to expand...
You need to read up on the several factors. Start here but lot of places to read and learn:
http://teslapedia.org/model-s/tesla-driver/understanding-charging-rates/

Also related is how the pack is arranged. i.e. 120kW mentioned above. Info via:

https://forums.tesla.com/forum/forums/400-kw-charging
georgehawley.fl.us | December 6, 2016
Haven't encountered a Supercharger operating over 120 kW yet.

The limits charging power that a battery pack can accept is the maximum amount of current the manufacturer is willing to tolerate in the individual cells and the way the cells are wired together for charging purposes.

Panasonic recommends 2 amperes maximum at 4.2 volts per cell for charging the 18650 cells used by Tesla. Tesla charges them with up to 4 amperes at 4.2 volts. In the 85 and 90 kWh packs Tesla has 96 strings of 74 cells in parallel. 74 X 4 amperes = 296 amperes maximum. 96 X 4.2 volts = 403.2 volts. 403.2 X 296 = 119.3. kW. [note the 120 kW mentioned above]

For a Supercharger to charge a 60 kWh pack, the SC regulates the voltage and current to suit the smaller batter pack configuration. Likewise a 145 kW-capable SC hooked up to a 90 kWh pack.
Click to expand...
Click to expand...

I think everyone is stuck in the present. I'm simply pointing out the fact that Tesla clearly plans on changing their battery technology to allow for faster charging, or else they wouldn't upgrade their existing charging stations. In the age of acceleration and with someone like Musk this change "could" happen as quickly as a year or two. The other manufacturers will eventually follow suit. If I bought a new Leaf in January, and by 2019 there were new ones that could charge in 20 minutes instead of 50, I would be annoyed.
 
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