Official Ford C-MAX Energi PHEV thread

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kubel said:
With the current lease cash being offered on the 2015 combined with A-Plan pricing (over $12,600 in savings all told), I'm considering getting a C-MAX Energi. I'm talking pricing with a dealership now and will probably go for a test drive tomorrow or Friday to see how it drives. I just wish Nissan would bring the 2016 LEAF here soon to change my mind.


I was in the exact same boat as you. I have an expiring 3 year lease on my Leaf. I've been waiting for the 2016 Leaf to be released but couldn't wait any longer. I considered extending my lease for a month or two but didn't like the idea of paying for a full year of registration for only 1 month of driving. Also no one knows what lease pricing will be on the 2016. It's too bad Nissan has been dragging their feet so much. I really liked the leaf.

Stumbled upon the Ford lease incentives for the C-Max Energi and I just signed a 3 year lease on one with the 303A package. Haven't really driven it much yet so it's hard to compare. Almost two different types of vehicles.
 
Via ievs:
Ford Offers 3 Years Free Charging For C-Max Energi Buyers In California & Maryland
http://insideevs.com/ford-offers-3-years-free-charging-for-c-max-energi-buyers-in-california-maryland/

. . . Ford offers 3 years instead of 2 years in the case of Nissan and only AC charging – up to 4 hour free sessions (DC is not available on C-MAX Energi).

The two charging providers participating in the project are NRG EVgo and SemaConnect. Those who purchase or lease a 2016 C-MAX Energi in California and Maryland between 1 October 2015 and 1 October 2016 will get one access card for both networks. . . .
 
It's curious that they offer this in Maryland. I wouldn't have thought that state a particular hotbed of plug-ins, but between this and the Spark EV (available in CA, OR, and MD), maybe I'm wrong?

I like the trend of OEMs providing "free" charging to new buyers. It encourages the product with very little financial cost. At the same time, it provides a revenue stream for the companies struggling to set up for-profit public charging. Until EVs reach critical mass, this could be the lifeline that keeps these infrastructure companies afloat.

It is weird, though, that Ford offers this on a PHEV and not their BEV. Public sharging seems far more critical to the latter case than the former.
 
Via IEVS:
Refreshed 2017 Ford C-Max Energi Gets $4,650 Lower Price, Now From $27,120
http://insideevs.com/nrefreshed-2017-ford-c-max-energi-gets-4650-lower-price-now-from-27120/

How much of the price drop (through de-contenting) is due to sagging sales, and how much to the introduction of the Prius Prime @ $27,100 base MSRP, I leave for others to speculate. Whatever the cause, it's terrific that there are now two sub-$30k PHEVs with at least 20 miles AER available in the U.S. How long will it be before we get the first $25k/20+ mile AER PHEV, or the first $20k/20+ mile AER one?
 
When I picked up my wife's CMax in summer of 2015, Ford offered us $5k off MSRP, plus the $4k tax credit, it came out cheaper than the new MSRP. This is just continuing the trend: 1) start with a high MSRP, and see how many takers will pay it, 2) when sales sag, offer cash rebates/etc, 3) as the model ages, lower the MSRP to reflect the price already given in (2). We saw this with the Focus EV, as well as the Volt. The CMax is just the latest to the party.

IMO, the CMax Energi is highly underrated. 20 miles of AER will work for a lot of people (certainly not all). And despite the compromised trunk, it is still one of the largest plug-ins available. Pushing the MSRP down below $30k is great, but I wonder if it will help sales. They have stalled out at about 600/month it seems. IMHO, Ford should be able to sell 1k-2k/month if they actually tried.
 
I'm borrowing my friend's C-MAX Energi while he's across the country. The 20mi range goes fast when you're driving to a destination without a plug, but the overall driving range is amazing. My friend has 23K miles and probably on his 10th tank of gasoline. My only gripe is that I wish the turning radius was a little tighter and the A-pillars create an unnecessary blindspot.
 
GetOffYourGas said:
When I picked up my wife's CMax in summer of 2015, Ford offered us $5k off MSRP, plus the $4k tax credit, it came out cheaper than the new MSRP. This is just continuing the trend: 1) start with a high MSRP, and see how many takers will pay it, 2) when sales sag, offer cash rebates/etc, 3) as the model ages, lower the MSRP to reflect the price already given in (2). We saw this with the Focus EV, as well as the Volt. The CMax is just the latest to the party.

IMO, the CMax Energi is highly underrated. 20 miles of AER will work for a lot of people (certainly not all). And despite the compromised trunk, it is still one of the largest plug-ins available. Pushing the MSRP down below $30k is great, but I wonder if it will help sales. They have stalled out at about 600/month it seems. IMHO, Ford should be able to sell 1k-2k/month if they actually tried.

between the Fusion and Cmax, they actually do sell that many
 
DaveinOlyWA said:
GetOffYourGas said:
When I picked up my wife's CMax in summer of 2015, Ford offered us $5k off MSRP, plus the $4k tax credit, it came out cheaper than the new MSRP. This is just continuing the trend: 1) start with a high MSRP, and see how many takers will pay it, 2) when sales sag, offer cash rebates/etc, 3) as the model ages, lower the MSRP to reflect the price already given in (2). We saw this with the Focus EV, as well as the Volt. The CMax is just the latest to the party.

IMO, the CMax Energi is highly underrated. 20 miles of AER will work for a lot of people (certainly not all). And despite the compromised trunk, it is still one of the largest plug-ins available. Pushing the MSRP down below $30k is great, but I wonder if it will help sales. They have stalled out at about 600/month it seems. IMHO, Ford should be able to sell 1k-2k/month if they actually tried.

between the Fusion and Cmax, they actually do sell that many

I am aware of that. The Fusion sells much better than the CMax, maybe 2:1 or better. I'm not sure I understand why. I was specifically talking about the CMax Energi - Ford could sell 1k-2k CMax Energi's per month if they tried. In fact, they already sell that many Fusion Energi's alone!
 
GetOffYourGas said:
DaveinOlyWA said:
GetOffYourGas said:
When I picked up my wife's CMax in summer of 2015, Ford offered us $5k off MSRP, plus the $4k tax credit, it came out cheaper than the new MSRP. This is just continuing the trend: 1) start with a high MSRP, and see how many takers will pay it, 2) when sales sag, offer cash rebates/etc, 3) as the model ages, lower the MSRP to reflect the price already given in (2). We saw this with the Focus EV, as well as the Volt. The CMax is just the latest to the party.

IMO, the CMax Energi is highly underrated. 20 miles of AER will work for a lot of people (certainly not all). And despite the compromised trunk, it is still one of the largest plug-ins available. Pushing the MSRP down below $30k is great, but I wonder if it will help sales. They have stalled out at about 600/month it seems. IMHO, Ford should be able to sell 1k-2k/month if they actually tried.

between the Fusion and Cmax, they actually do sell that many

I am aware of that. The Fusion sells much better than the CMax, maybe 2:1 or better. I'm not sure I understand why. I was specifically talking about the CMax Energi - Ford could sell 1k-2k CMax Energi's per month if they tried. In fact, they already sell that many Fusion Energi's alone!

well having gone thru Cmax Energi training while working at Ford, I can say that the huge factor is storage on both Energi's. It is the same complaint over and over and I half expected a redesign long ago but... who knows? I half think Ford is a ok with the current sales pace.
 
DaveinOlyWA said:
GetOffYourGas said:
DaveinOlyWA said:
between the Fusion and Cmax, they actually do sell that many

I am aware of that. The Fusion sells much better than the CMax, maybe 2:1 or better. I'm not sure I understand why. I was specifically talking about the CMax Energi - Ford could sell 1k-2k CMax Energi's per month if they tried. In fact, they already sell that many Fusion Energi's alone!

well having gone thru Cmax Energi training while working at Ford, I can say that the huge factor is storage on both Energi's. It is the same complaint over and over and I half expected a redesign long ago but... who knows? I half think Ford is a ok with the current sales pace.

The CMax has twice the storage of the Fusion. I'm surprised that the Fusion does so well, to be honest. The CMax's trunk is small for a car that size, but it is large for a PHEV. That's why I bought one. One look at the Fusion's trunk was enough to remove it from my list - it's smaller than the Volt (which is already too small).
 
GetOffYourGas said:
When I picked up my wife's CMax in summer of 2015, Ford offered us $5k off MSRP, plus the $4k tax credit, it came out cheaper than the new MSRP. This is just continuing the trend: 1) start with a high MSRP, and see how many takers will pay it, 2) when sales sag, offer cash rebates/etc, 3) as the model ages, lower the MSRP to reflect the price already given in (2). We saw this with the Focus EV, as well as the Volt. The CMax is just the latest to the party.

IMO, the CMax Energi is highly underrated. 20 miles of AER will work for a lot of people (certainly not all). And despite the compromised trunk, it is still one of the largest plug-ins available. Pushing the MSRP down below $30k is great, but I wonder if it will help sales. They have stalled out at about 600/month it seems. IMHO, Ford should be able to sell 1k-2k/month if they actually tried.


We just bought an off-lease '14 CMax Energi for $15k. Navigation, moonroof, heated leather power seats -- nice car! The miles should cover either me or my wife on a daily basis except for maybe January here in Vermont :)

I'd been tracking the plug-in varieties of Niro and Ioniq and then realized screw it, maybe we'll trade the Energi for an off-lease one of those in a few years. For now, given that we sold our Prius for almost as much as we paid for the Energi, this was a relatively cheap and easy way to double our electric mileage -- even if the Energi isn't terribly efficient with its use of electrons.
 
Congrats on the new ride, I hope you enjoy it!

Staying in EV in winter takes a little work but is possible. My recommendation is to preheat the car while plugged in and then use the heated seats instead of the heater. I know it has an electric heater but it likes to run the engine for heat of you aren't paying attention. I haven't played around with it much to see what triggers it since it is my wife's daily driver and not mine.
 
Via IEVS:
Ford C-Max Energi plug-in production over; Hybrid has only months left
https://www.greencarreports.com/new...n-production-over-hybrid-has-only-months-left

. . . "Ford C-Max Energi production has ended," Dan Jones, Ford's North America Car Communications Manager, told Green Car Reports.
"We will continue to make C-Max Hybrid [models] at [the] Michigan Assembly Plant until mid-2018," he added.

Sales of the C-Max give part of the reason for the double death sentence. In the first 10 months of this year, Ford sold just 8,331 C-Max Hybrid models—little higher than the 7,181 C-Max Energi plug-in hybrids it sold over the same period. Toyota sold more than 90,000 of its four Prius models by comparison.

Ford will apparently continue for another year or more with the hybrid and Energi versions of the Fusion mid-size sedan, which uses identical hybrid and plug-in hybrid powertrains to the C-Max. Those two sedans sold 49,764 and 8,026 copies of those the conventional and plug-in hybrid models, respectively, in the first 10 months of this year.

The C-Max will reportedly be replaced in 2019 by a new compact vehicle (possibly called the "Model E"). It allegedly will encompass full battery-electric, hybrid, and plug-in hybrid variants, similar to the Hyundai Ioniq launched for the 2017 model year, and possibly a crossover utility model as well.
 
RIP, CMax. My wife and I still love ours, and we plan to keep it another 8-10 years. But I understand why it wasn't successful in the US market. It's small by today's standards (yet still basically the largest affordable PHEV available, including cargo space).

I really hope that Ford follows through with the Escape Energi. The Energi is a great drive train, which lives on (for now) in the Fusion. They just need to package the battery better, and maybe upgrade it with more than 7.6kWh.
 
GetOffYourGas said:
RIP, CMax. My wife and I still love ours, and we plan to keep it another 8-10 years. But I understand why it wasn't successful in the US market. It's small by today's standards (yet still basically the largest affordable PHEV available, including cargo space).

I really hope that Ford follows through with the Escape Energi. The Energi is a great drive train, which lives on (for now) in the Fusion. They just need to package the battery better, and maybe upgrade it with more than 7.6kWh.
I'm curious as to which of these upgrades would be a higher priority for you, and which do you think would be most important for the mass market? IMO, for the mass market getting the battery out of the cargo compartment would be #1, and keeping the price down would take precedence over boosting the range, especially if the Fed. credit goes away. The way I see it, until the price of PHEVs is roughly comparable with ICEs/HEVs, they're simply non-viable in the U.S. absent subsidies, as long as our gas prices remain where they are.

Besides, I think the max. usable capacity that makes sense from a mass market perspective is about 8.64 kWh (with whatever total capacity above that needed to provide sufficient longevity), i.e. 8 hours of L1 assuming 120V/12A. For 1.44kW and 75% efficiency, that's 1.08kW charge rate into the battery. Depending on the vehicle efficiency, that should provide between 25 and 35 miles AER, covering the routine driving needs of somewhere between 60 and 75% of U.S.drivers. People who want and can afford more AER will pay for it, but until we've got $20k PHEVs with the same space, performance etc. as ICE/HEVs, for mass adoption cost reduction while maintaining the same range is more important than range improvement at a higher price and weight/internal space impact.
 
GRA said:
GetOffYourGas said:
RIP, CMax. My wife and I still love ours, and we plan to keep it another 8-10 years. But I understand why it wasn't successful in the US market. It's small by today's standards (yet still basically the largest affordable PHEV available, including cargo space).

I really hope that Ford follows through with the Escape Energi. The Energi is a great drive train, which lives on (for now) in the Fusion. They just need to package the battery better, and maybe upgrade it with more than 7.6kWh.
I'm curious as to which of these upgrades would be a higher priority for you, and which do you think would be most important for the mass market? IMO, for the mass market getting the battery out of the cargo compartment would be #1, and keeping the price down would take precedence over boosting the range, especially if the Fed. credit goes away. The way I see it, until the price of PHEVs is roughly comparable with ICEs/HEVs, they're simply non-viable in the U.S. absent subsidies, as long as our gas prices remain where they are.

Besides, I think the max. usable capacity that makes sense from a mass market perspective is about 8.64 kWh (with whatever total capacity above that needed to provide sufficient longevity), i.e. 8 hours of L1 assuming 120V/12A. For 1.44kW and 75% efficiency, that's 1.08kW charge rate into the battery. Depending on the vehicle efficiency, that should provide between 25 and 35 miles AER, covering the routine driving needs of somewhere between 60 and 75% of U.S.drivers. People who want and can afford more AER will pay for it, but until we've got $20k PHEVs with the same space, performance etc. as ICE/HEVs, for mass adoption cost reduction while maintaining the same range is more important than range improvement at a higher price and weight/internal space impact.

Priorities for me and for mass market are two different things.

First off, I was talking about a theoretically pending Escape Energi. For an Escape, a 7.6kWh battery would likely yield less than 15 miles of AER.

For me personally, the ~20miles of range that my CMax provides is nearly ideal. My household has a PHEV and a BEV, which complement each other nicely. The 20 miles of AER is great for my wife's commute. We do local errands together as a family in the BEV. For longer trips (>200 miles), the difference between 20 and 40 miles AER is small in terms of total gasoline used for the trip. So the answer to your question of my priority - I would prefer better packaging to more range.

For the mass market, I'm not so sure. Most people have much longer commutes than my wife or I do (both of us commute less than 5 miles round trip). It will take a while for people to get their heads around the utility of a PHEV. When they do, they would ideally buy one with an AER to handle their daily commuting/errand needs. What that is will vary greatly.

Again, my original comment was aimed at a future Escape Energi. I think a lot of people have been turned off from the CMax Energi (compared to the hybrid) because of the compromised trunk space. It is a small trunk for a crossover (although it's one of the biggest available in a PHEV, it's small compared to the rest of the market). I can see the same thing playing out with the Escape. With a small SUV form factor, people have a certain expectation of trunk space. Whether they need it or not, a smaller trunk will mean fewer sales. But if you keep the battery so small that it gets 15 miles of AER, people will wonder why they are paying this extra premium for 15 miles. They'll just buy the gas Escape instead.

I think Ford's Energi system is better than the HSD-Prime, but not quite as good as Voltec. I don't pretend to know the answer. I'm personally glad that we have options, and people can choose for themselves.
 
GetOffYourGas said:
GRA said:
GetOffYourGas said:
RIP, CMax. My wife and I still love ours, and we plan to keep it another 8-10 years. But I understand why it wasn't successful in the US market. It's small by today's standards (yet still basically the largest affordable PHEV available, including cargo space).

I really hope that Ford follows through with the Escape Energi. The Energi is a great drive train, which lives on (for now) in the Fusion. They just need to package the battery better, and maybe upgrade it with more than 7.6kWh.
I'm curious as to which of these upgrades would be a higher priority for you, and which do you think would be most important for the mass market? IMO, for the mass market getting the battery out of the cargo compartment would be #1, and keeping the price down would take precedence over boosting the range, especially if the Fed. credit goes away. The way I see it, until the price of PHEVs is roughly comparable with ICEs/HEVs, they're simply non-viable in the U.S. absent subsidies, as long as our gas prices remain where they are.

Besides, I think the max. usable capacity that makes sense from a mass market perspective is about 8.64 kWh (with whatever total capacity above that needed to provide sufficient longevity), i.e. 8 hours of L1 assuming 120V/12A. For 1.44kW and 75% efficiency, that's 1.08kW charge rate into the battery. Depending on the vehicle efficiency, that should provide between 25 and 35 miles AER, covering the routine driving needs of somewhere between 60 and 75% of U.S.drivers. People who want and can afford more AER will pay for it, but until we've got $20k PHEVs with the same space, performance etc. as ICE/HEVs, for mass adoption cost reduction while maintaining the same range is more important than range improvement at a higher price and weight/internal space impact.

Priorities for me and for mass market are two different things.
Which is why I asked the question the way I did, as you've already taken the plunge and are much more into the tech than the typical buyer. I wanted to see if your priorities differed from what I believe they are for the mass market customer. From what you say below it appears to me that they don't, although you're more willing to put up with the compromises than they would be.

First off, I was talking about a theoretically pending Escape Energi. For an Escape, a 7.6kWh battery would likely yield less than 15 miles of AER.

For me personally, the ~20miles of range that my CMax provides is nearly ideal. My household has a PHEV and a BEV, which complement each other nicely. The 20 miles of AER is great for my wife's commute. We do local errands together as a family in the BEV. For longer trips (>200 miles), the difference between 20 and 40 miles AER is small in terms of total gasoline used for the trip. So the answer to your question of my priority - I would prefer better packaging to more range.

For the mass market, I'm not so sure. Most people have much longer commutes than my wife or I do (both of us commute less than 5 miles round trip). It will take a while for people to get their heads around the utility of a PHEV. When they do, they would ideally buy one with an AER to handle their daily commuting/errand needs. What that is will vary greatly.

Again, my original comment was aimed at a future Escape Energi. I think a lot of people have been turned off from the CMax Energi (compared to the hybrid) because of the compromised trunk space. It is a small trunk for a crossover (although it's one of the biggest available in a PHEV, it's small compared to the rest of the market). I can see the same thing playing out with the Escape. With a small SUV form factor, people have a certain expectation of trunk space. Whether they need it or not, a smaller trunk will mean fewer sales. But if you keep the battery so small that it gets 15 miles of AER, people will wonder why they are paying this extra premium for 15 miles. They'll just buy the gas Escape instead.

I think Ford's Energi system is better than the HSD-Prime, but not quite as good as Voltec. I don't pretend to know the answer. I'm personally glad that we have options, and people can choose for themselves.
I'm looking forward to the Escape as well, and really hope that Ford chooses cargo volume and price over max. AER (or offers buyers the option, something I'd love to see with a Voltec CUV). There won't be any shortage of more expensive PHEVs for people who can afford them, but I'm all for picking the lowest hanging fruit first, which in this case is a PHEV that the most people can afford without significant pax/cargo limitations compared to the same ICE/HEV, i.e. Golf GTE rather than Fusion/C-Max Energis or Prime, with enough battery/AER to make it worth paying extra for and plugging in.

While there are plenty of BMW and Mercedes PHEVs with 15 miles or less AER selling reasonably well, as they're priced well above mass market I don't think they really apply to this case. As I've said before, I personally think enough battery to provide at least 20 miles AER with good longevity would be a good minimum, as that will cover the routine needs of half of the driving population. Every additional mile above that covers a smaller and smaller percentage of extra population, so providing a variety of choices which trade off cost/space versus AER is necessary. 8.64 kWh usable (10-13kWh total, depending on longevity requirements) will guarantee at least 20 miles AER in anything short of a big pickup with off-road tires. After all, 3 miles/kWh x 8.64 = 25.92 miles, and 4 x 8.64 = 34.56 miles.

More efficient vehicles can go with a smaller battery and save money/space, or if the difference isn't significant the bigger battery will cover more of the population. But according to every poll that's come out, the main impediment that keeps most people from considering PEVs is price, so IMO we have to make that the top priority, regardless of whatever else is offered.

By the time 2nd gen. PHEVs like the Escape are coming due for replacement by 3rd gen. models, say 2025, BEV prices are forecast to (and hopefully will) be down enough, and infrastructure complete enough, to make them cost and operationally competitive with ICEs, and we won't need another generation of transitional ZEV tech like PHEVs.
 
You have given a good, thoughtful, rational analysis. It is almost too rational, though. More so than the average car buyer. I have heard people claim that they would have purchased a PHEV, but with only 20 miles of range it couldn't do their commute so instead they buy a HEV. In other words, instead of 20 gas-free miles every day, they choose to get 0. It doesn't make any sense.

In talking to people, there seems to be a disconnect between what people want (and believe they "need"), and what could actually be a huge improvement. In other words - I've seen your signature line play out enough times to make me a bit of a cynic myself. People constantly let perfect be the enemy of good enough.
 
^^^^Some of the best discussion I've seen here. I would push the "optimum" battery size for the general public up just a bit. I think we can assume closer to 12 hrs, maybe even 14 hrs of L1 charging, so maybe 12-14 KWh useable battery. Most people sleep 7-8 hrs and take a couple of hours at home for other activities, so the car is probably parked at least 12-14 hours. Sure, people with 2 hr commutes are edge cases, but most commutes are 60 min or less.
 
GetOffYourGas said:
You have given a good, thoughtful, rational analysis. It is almost too rational, though. More so than the average car buyer. I have heard people claim that they would have purchased a PHEV, but with only 20 miles of range it couldn't do their commute so instead they buy a HEV. In other words, instead of 20 gas-free miles every day, they choose to get 0. It doesn't make any sense.

In talking to people, there seems to be a disconnect between what people want (and believe they "need"), and what could actually be a huge improvement. In other words - I've seen your signature line play out enough times to make me a bit of a cynic myself. People constantly let perfect be the enemy of good enough.
H'mm, not a single statement that someone's a moron or lazy for even slightly disagreeing with someone else over cost/benefits - where are we going wrong? ;)

I've always figured that reasonably rational buyers who are even considering PHEVs will try to buy one with enough AER to cover their routine daily needs, if they can afford that and it meets their other requirements, but if not an HEV rather than shorter range PHEV may well be the least expensive option, or seem to be. Most of us here care about gas-free miles, but the general public is motivated first and foremost by upfront and monthly costs and not having to spend time learning something new. There's undoubtedly a great deal of education that still needs to be done, but I have my doubts that most people will bother with the kind of detailed analysis that would show a PHEV beating out an HEV (or ICE). IMO it will continue to be word-of-mouth from friends etc. that convinces most people to change, for quite some time yet. But that plus (positive) personal experience tends to provide the most effective conversion for the long term.

Per Reddy's comments, much as AOTBE I'd like to see bigger batteries that could take longer charges, I figure most utilities now have ToU pricing with restricted hours that would preclude lowest-cost charging for more than 8 hours, in some cases well under that (SDG&E's five, IIRR). If someone's fortunate enough to live in an area where that doesn't apply, then sure, go for a bigger battery assuming cost etc. isn't an issue. But, assuming access to L2 rather than L1 charging at home pretty much restricts the potential market to homeowners, and that and/or the bigger battery adds to up front costs and hassle owing to the need to purchase an L2 EVSE and maybe install a circuit, to the point where we're no longer talking about minimum acceptable capability/hassle at lowest cost. We're already asking the public to take the extra minute and plug in daily, and even that will be a step too far for some.
 
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