Why the LEAF Gen 2 and not the 220 miles Tesla Model 3?

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abasile said:
webb14leafs said:
90% of the time, my wife needs to travel 140 miles once a week but there's the odd week where she is asked to join her team twice.
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Sounds like an EV might not be a good choice as your primary car then.
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You mean an EV other than a Tesla or a Bolt?
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I'm assuming the 140 miles is one way, in which case no current EVs will suffice during the winter if she is not willing or able to charge. If the 140 miles is round trip, then YES a Tesla or Bolt will work. I would also say that the Leaf should still work. Seems unreasonable to be unwilling to charge the car at some point on this trip. 2 hours on a Level 2 charger (if it's close to the destination) or 20 minutes on a Level 3 charger would be plenty.
 
webb14leafs said:
90% of the time, my wife needs to travel 140 miles once a week but there's the odd week where she is asked to join her team twice.
Click to expand...

Sounds like an EV might not be a good choice as your primary car then.
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It would be foolish for me to purchase a below 180 (or thereabout) mile BEV knowing fully well what my wife's driving needs are. I also know she will not be too willing to drive and charge at a public station if her employer no longer has one.

I will only entertain BEVs that cover 90% of our driving needs and because the 140 mile trips comprised 15-20% of the distance covered, the only ones that make sense are the Bolt and Tesla and maybe a future 60 kWh Nissan BEV.

I'm not in a rush really because depreciation on any vehicle will almost be so much more than the gasoline savings and if post-warranty, major issues crop up, I would definitely regret purchasing a less reliable BEV because I've gotten used to the above average reliability of Honda and Toyota vehicles. A third car is nice to have but isn't necessary but it will definitely be a BEV.

=====
I like this forum better though there is fewer posts / activity compared to Tesla TMC. Might see more posts once the new Leaf details come out. People here are more helpful and don't seem to bash other people's posts.

Over at TMC, it seems one is considered a basher if one raises some concern about the Model 3's limited battery and drive train unit, the costs of packages/add-ons, and so forth. People there don't seem to want to keep an open mind and majority are Tesla fanatics.

On the Tesla forum itself, one of my legitimate post on reliability concerns was deleted so I wouldn't even bother with that site.
 
webb14leafs said:
abasile said:
webb14leafs said:
Sounds like an EV might not be a good choice as your primary car then.
Click to expand...
You mean an EV other than a Tesla or a Bolt?
Click to expand...

I'm assuming the 140 miles is one way, in which case no current EVs will suffice during the winter if she is not willing or able to charge. If the 140 miles is round trip, then YES a Tesla or Bolt will work. I would also say that the Leaf should still work. Seems unreasonable to be unwilling to charge the car at some point on this trip. 2 hours on a Level 2 charger (if it's close to the destination) or 20 minutes on a Level 3 charger would be plenty.
Click to expand...

It's round trip.

Need to find out about ESA/extended warranty on the Tesla and the Leaf (likely wait for the 50-60 kWh model though) because we tend to hold on to our vehicles for a really long time and hopefully, neither of them try to shirk warranty responsibilities when the time comes.
 
abasile said:
internalaudit said:
So the initial Tesla RWD's were plagued by drive unit issues while the Leaf plagued by declining battery capacities.
Click to expand...
Faced with declining battery capacities, Nissan resisted taking responsibility and pushed many away from the brand. The capacity loss on our 2011 LEAF (bought new) is unacceptable, yet it's not quite enough to qualify for a warranty replacement, so we're left with a crippled car. Nissan should have simply replaced all defective batteries, no questions asked.

Tesla, on the other hand, has generally been very good at taking care of its customers. They retroactively added an unlimited-mile warranty (8 years) on the drive units.

I will say that I appreciate the simplicity of the LEAF, though. As much as I'd prefer not to have to deal with traditional car dealers, we haven't had to do much of that over the course of our 6+ years of LEAF ownership. It's nice to have a car that, aside from the battery capacity loss, requires very little maintenance.

In the end, the Model 3 should meet our family's requirements for our next car purchase while LEAF 2.0 will not. Those requirements include range (close to 300 miles per charge) and/or AWD.
Click to expand...

Surprised how Nissan reacted to the battery issue. I read about a few were Nissan shouldered 50% of the replacement costs but I think a class action suit was necessary to get them to do that. I admit, I haven't really read a whole lot about the issue except for the lack of active cooling because the first gen Leaf will never serve 90% of my household's driving needs.

With Tesla, it's not a surprise because if they alienate the Model S owners with the drive unit milling issues, their customer base would have eroded and the company could imploded because Tesla was a one trick pony back then.

Good to know everything but the Leaf battery is holding up. People are saying Nissan quality is short of Honda / Toyota. This is only from a few posts I read that suggest Nissan isn't as quality-focused as Toyota. I have always gravitated toward Honda but got a RAV 4 Hybrid because the technology is rock solid. With Toyota dilly dallying about entering the BEV market and Honda possibly releasing a non-Clarity BEV with a shorter than Leaf Range, I'm caught between a later iteration of Leaf 2.0 or a Tesla Model 3.
 
Need to find out about ESA/extended warranty on the Tesla and the Leaf (likely wait for the 50-60 kWh model though) because we tend to hold on to our vehicles for a really long time and hopefully, neither of them try to shirk warranty responsibilities when the time comes.
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Another option would be to wait for the Bolts to show up on the used market. You might be able to snag one for under $15K in a couple years as they start to come off of their leases.

I purchased my Leaf used and I'm not sure I would purchase a new EV right now. The used market is just too good, and I think that there will be so many technological changes in the next couple of years that I want to see how it plays out before I drop $30K or more on a car.
 
When I had a 2012 Leaf its hardcore winter range was under 2 miles/kwh. Slow traffic, very cold temps, heat on bust. That was a 50% reduction in range from the stated. Be careful getting "winter" range estimates from people who live in moderate states. When it's cold as hell in Ottawa (for example) and you want to have the heat on full and you're creeping along at an average of 10-15 mph, your range is going to get slashed hard. You can forget a "160 miles range" EV being able to bring you 140 miles in a Canadian winter. Unless you're okay regularly dropping your highway speed to 40 to eek out more miles, it can't be done. Truthfully I wouldn't feel comfortable with that demand in the 220 tesla, either. Just cutting it too close. Think about what happens if you're stuck on the freeway in a storm, un-moving for an hour or two and then creeping along at 6 mph. And you can't even turn the heat off all the way because the windows fog (yeah I used to do that "fun" trick in my Leaf to try and extend the winter range). Extended winter trips you want a massive buffer of range.

Personally I have money down on a model 3. I prefer it over the leaf not just for the range (the leaf's 160 mile claimed range would be okay for city for me, even in hard winter), it will look better, drive better, but of great importance to me is the autonomy they are pushing. Frankly I just don't think I can get excited about another car unless it has some qualitative enhancement over what I have now, and huge amounts of autonomy are that. This said, I don't know what propilot can do right now. It may be a lot. It seems like it does a lot of what tesla's EAP does.

But, I want a car I can put on the highway, press a button, and take my hands off everything. Cadillac's super cruise will allow this. EAP may not yet (it wants your hands on the wheel like propilot), but that's just a software unlock.

The Leaf is a cheaper car to buy and you can definitely take advantage of the full federal tax credit. If you don't yet have a model 3 reservation you can forget that. You'll get half (at most). I guess that's moot in canada, though.

My guess is the leaf's reliability will be better and it will be easier to service. I have not ruled out a Leaf BTW. Really the Leaf is the "practical" choice, like buying a prius. The tesla is the fun one.
 
EatsShootsandLeafs said:
When I had a 2012 Leaf its hardcore winter range was under 2 miles/kwh. Slow traffic, very cold temps, heat on bust. That was a 50% reduction in range from the stated. Be careful getting "winter" range estimates from people who live in moderate states. When it's cold as hell in Ottawa (for example) and you want to have the heat on full and you're creeping along at an average of 10-15 mph, your range is going to get slashed hard. You can forget a "160 miles range" EV being able to bring you 140 miles in a Canadian winter. Unless you're okay regularly dropping your highway speed to 40 to eek out more miles, it can't be done. Truthfully I wouldn't feel comfortable with that demand in the 220 tesla, either. Just cutting it too close. Think about what happens if you're stuck on the freeway in a storm, un-moving for an hour or two and then creeping along at 6 mph. And you can't even turn the heat off all the way because the windows fog (yeah I used to do that "fun" trick in my Leaf to try and extend the winter range). Extended winter trips you want a massive buffer of range.

Personally I have money down on a model 3. I prefer it over the leaf not just for the range (the leaf's 160 mile claimed range would be okay for city for me, even in hard winter), it will look better, drive better, but of great importance to me is the autonomy they are pushing. Frankly I just don't think I can get excited about another car unless it has some qualitative enhancement over what I have now, and huge amounts of autonomy are that. This said, I don't know what propilot can do right now. It may be a lot. It seems like it does a lot of what tesla's EAP does.

But, I want a car I can put on the highway, press a button, and take my hands off everything. Cadillac's super cruise will allow this. EAP may not yet (it wants your hands on the wheel like propilot), but that's just a software unlock.

The Leaf is a cheaper car to buy and you can definitely take advantage of the full federal tax credit. If you don't yet have a model 3 reservation you can forget that. You'll get half (at most). I guess that's moot in canada, though.

My guess is the leaf's reliability will be better and it will be easier to service. I have not ruled out a Leaf BTW. Really the Leaf is the "practical" choice, like buying a prius. The tesla is the fun one.
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Well for cold winters, getting the 310 mile Model 3 along with waiting for dual motor all wheel drive is probably your best option. That will give you lots of extra range for those cold days, plus extra agility of dual motor. I'm torn between getting my Model 3 early and waiting for dual motors.. I may just camp out on my Model 3 reservation until my Leaf can no longer serve me adequately. Of course, all of this may go out the window if employment situations change as well, and I may have to limp along with the Leaf as long as I can... :?
 
It seems to me that perhaps we focus too much on battery size and not enough on "what for?" If I lived in Canada and wanted a BEV as a primary car, I'd be hard pressed to find one that really meets all my needs. However, if I want a second car for local driving, a 30 kw Leaf will fill my needs easily (if you want to see a very long analysis on primary vs second car use, check this out: http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0968090X16000371)).

IMHO a BEV can be the perfect second car for local driving. I don't do more than 50 miles/day so a 30 kw Leaf meets my needs for a second car. I routinely do long trips (700 miles) so my primary car is a Lexus ES350 - a great highway car. Most of the time the Lexus is under a cover.

So to the original question, Tesla or Leaf, considering my needs for a local car, I'd be hard pressed to justify $50,000 for a Tesla as a local car vs a Leaf at about $30,000 MSRP before incentives and discounts, which can lower the cost considerably.
 
Zythryn said:
Most of the information by Nubo is actually either unknown, or factually incorrect.
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How so?

Availability is a legitimate concern. Anyone reserving Model3 now gets a slot for LATE 2018; assuming Tesla can meet its ambitious production goals.
Tesla does block avenues of repair unless you agree to their terms; examples are easy to find.
Bodywork costs are a function of Tesla-granted exclusivity, not just the amount of Aluminum. Costs are sky-high.
You agree the battery chemistry is less stable.
You stated your preference for touch-panel; I stated my preference for tactile knobs, which has a basis in Human Factors Engineering.
The vampire drain is real; your results don't necessarily represent what others will get in different temperature environments.

I gave the reasons for my preference. That you disagree about their importance, or have other priorities, does not make my statements factually incorrect.
 
abasile said:
internalaudit said:
So the initial Tesla RWD's were plagued by drive unit issues while the Leaf plagued by declining battery capacities.
Click to expand...
Faced with declining battery capacities, Nissan resisted taking responsibility and pushed many away from the brand. The capacity loss on our 2011 LEAF (bought new) is unacceptable, yet it's not quite enough to qualify for a warranty replacement, so we're left with a crippled car. Nissan should have simply replaced all defective batteries, no questions asked.

Tesla, on the other hand, has generally been very good at taking care of its customers. They retroactively added an unlimited-mile warranty (8 years) on the drive units.

I will say that I appreciate the simplicity of the LEAF, though. As much as I'd prefer not to have to deal with traditional car dealers, we haven't had to do much of that over the course of our 6+ years of LEAF ownership. It's nice to have a car that, aside from the battery capacity loss, requires very little maintenance.

In the end, the Model 3 should meet our family's requirements for our next car purchase while LEAF 2.0 will not. Those requirements include range (close to 300 miles per charge) and/or AWD.
Click to expand...

Did you ever try to get a deal on a replacement battery? If so, when and what did they offer you?
 
joeriv said:
So to the original question, Tesla or Leaf, considering my needs for a local car, I'd be hard pressed to justify $50,000 for a Tesla as a local car vs a Leaf at about $30,000 MSRP before incentives and discounts, which can lower the cost considerably.
Click to expand...
How does $30k Leaf compare to $35k Model 3 ?
 
Nubo said:
Zythryn said:
Most of the information by Nubo is actually either unknown, or factually incorrect.
Click to expand...
How so?

Availability is a legitimate concern. Anyone reserving Model3 now gets a slot for LATE 2018; assuming Tesla can meet its ambitious production goals.
Tesla does block avenues of repair unless you agree to their terms; examples are easy to find.
Bodywork costs are a function of Tesla-granted exclusivity, not just the amount of Aluminum. Costs are sky-high.
You agree the battery chemistry is less stable.
You stated your preference for touch-panel; I stated my preference for tactile knobs, which has a basis in Human Factors Engineering.
The vampire drain is real; your results don't necessarily represent what others will get in different temperature environments.

I gave the reasons for my preference. That you disagree about their importance, or have other priorities, does not make my statements factually incorrect.
Click to expand...

I would not compare the vampire loads of older Teslas to the newer S models or the 3 which is different in every way possible. I used to be a die hard manual control person but after owning an S I would never look back. What you think you need in another EV or car you don't miss in a Tesla because it's a better implementation. The manual controls you need are still there.


Tesla has said it is going to likely make parts available to everyone per some new news and this may even include software tools. They must do this for a large number of reasons not just including the massive numbers of wrecked 3's that will soon be upon us.
 
joeriv said:
It seems to me that perhaps we focus too much on battery size and not enough on "what for?" If I lived in Canada and wanted a BEV as a primary car, I'd be hard pressed to find one that really meets all my needs. However, if I want a second car for local driving, a 30 kw Leaf will fill my needs easily (if you want to see a very long analysis on primary vs second car use, check this out: http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0968090X16000371)).

IMHO a BEV can be the perfect second car for local driving. I don't do more than 50 miles/day so a 30 kw Leaf meets my needs for a second car. I routinely do long trips (700 miles) so my primary car is a Lexus ES350 - a great highway car. Most of the time the Lexus is under a cover.

So to the original question, Tesla or Leaf, considering my needs for a local car, I'd be hard pressed to justify $50,000 for a Tesla as a local car vs a Leaf at about $30,000 MSRP before incentives and discounts, which can lower the cost considerably.
Click to expand...

You asked what for is the BEV? I already mentioned I need it to gover 90% of our driving needs, which includes my wife's 140 mile round trip once a week. There isn't a charging station at her employer's building (used to have them previously at other locations).

Gasoline is 50% more expensive here than it is in the bordering NY towns (Niagara Falls, Amherst, etc.) and electricity at night is pretty decent at around 12 cents (9 cents USD) per kWh from 7-7 so the break even period for a BEV in Canada can be much shorter.

We have an 11 Accord and a 16 RAV4 Hybrid and eventually we'll need a third car for emergencies when our eldest child will have obtained her license because we have a toddler who will be in JK next September. We are not selling either of the two vehicles which is why we can afford to sit out an wait for that BEV that can cover our needs. Like you said, for long distance driving, I don't mind taking either of the ICE vehicles as they're really not gas guzzlers or just rent a car when flying across the continent.

The Accord is worth $10k USD if sold and it has not problems whatsoever and I still have extended warranty on until next year end. No point getting rid of it to buy another vehicle because it already has electronic stability control, which is probably one of the best safety features invented after ABS.

The winter climate in Toronto is a little worst than many parts of NY in terms of frigid temperature but we don't really get too much snow fall or snow storms so our winter will be better than Minnesota or adjacent states.

If there was no rumor about a 60 kWh battery pack for the Leaf, then I would definitely strike it off my list. I am a little hesitant to go with a Tesla especially if the ESA is inferior because it probably comes with average to below average reliability in the long run but the AWD options seems good. We tend to keep our vehicles longer and so may be able to splurge a little but not at the expense of significant increase in ownership costs, which we aren't used to owning Honda's and Toyota's.
 
DaveinOlyWA said:
Did you ever try to get a deal on a replacement battery? If so, when and what did they offer you?
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No, I've never tried, for two reasons:

1. Our LEAF's reported capacity is currently 9/12 bars, which while quite lousy (relative to non-Nissan EVs) is above the warranty threshold of 8/12 bars. I've never heard of anyone getting a deal on a replacement battery with more than 8 capacity bars remaining. Our relatively cool climate has enabled our battery pack to degrade more slowly (too slowly for the warranty, too fast for practical purposes).

2. We have another EV (our pre-owned Tesla Model S) that we can usually use whenever the LEAF won't meet our needs. And if the Tesla isn't available, we have a Prius (which we plan to replace with a Model 3). Therefore, it just doesn't seem worthwhile to put significantly more money into our 2011 LEAF - it's not our "primary car".

That said, if after dropping to 8/12 capacity bars we can get Nissan to replace our battery for as little as $1200 (as has been the case recently for others on this forum), I'll probably go for that. But I still think Nissan should have offered a battery replacement for every pre-"Lizard Battery" LEAF at no charge, because the early batteries were defective. Even the newer LEAF batteries don't seem that great, but hopefully dropping AESC as the battery manufacturer will help going forward.
 
abasile said:
DaveinOlyWA said:
Did you ever try to get a deal on a replacement battery? If so, when and what did they offer you?
Click to expand...
No, I've never tried, for two reasons:

1. Our LEAF's reported capacity is currently 9/12 bars, which while quite lousy (relative to non-Nissan EVs) is above the warranty threshold of 8/12 bars. I've never heard of anyone getting a deal on a replacement battery with more than 8 capacity bars remaining. Our relatively cool climate has enabled our battery pack to degrade more slowly (too slowly for the warranty, too fast for practical purposes).

2. We have another EV (our pre-owned Tesla Model S) that we can usually use whenever the LEAF won't meet our needs. And if the Tesla isn't available, we have a Prius (which we plan to replace with a Model 3). Therefore, it just doesn't seem worthwhile to put significantly more money into our 2011 LEAF - it's not our "primary car".

That said, if after dropping to 8/12 capacity bars we can get Nissan to replace our battery for as little as $1200 (as has been the case recently for others on this forum), I'll probably go for that. But I still think Nissan should have offered a battery replacement for every pre-"Lizard Battery" LEAF at no charge, because the early batteries were defective. Even the newer LEAF batteries don't seem that great, but hopefully dropping AESC as the battery manufacturer will help going forward.
Click to expand...

oh ok. thought you were at or below 8 already.
 
EVDRIVER said:
I used to be a die hard manual control person but after owning an S I would never look back. What you think you need in another EV or car you don't miss in a Tesla because it's a better implementation. The manual controls you need are still there.
Click to expand...
+1. When the iPhone first came out, I remember thinking that it was silly to eliminate a keyword with actual buttons...

I feel that the Tesla touchscreen is far superior to the abundance of manual knobs, sliders, buttons, etc. that you'll find on other cars. It offers so much more flexibility, as the vehicle can have screen after screen of controls for all sorts of purposes without cluttering up the cockpit. It's been routine for Tesla to improve and extend the UI via over-the-air software updates, meaning that older cars actually get better with age. And as others have mentioned, you can map common settings such as volume or fan speed to the steering wheel controls.

By contrast, the UI on our 2011 LEAF is still lacking basic instrumentation like percent state of charge (added in the 2013 model year) and an "EPA rated miles" (or km) display instead of the ever-fluctuating "guess-o-meter". Unlike our Tesla's nav system, the LEAF's nav doesn't even attempt to calculate the amount of charge needed to reach a given destination. All of this could be addressed through software updates (albeit requiring dealer visits), but this doesn't seem to be a priority for Nissan.
 
abasile said:
I feel that the Tesla touchscreen is far superior to the abundance of manual knobs, sliders, buttons, etc. that you'll find on other cars. It offers so much more flexibility, as the vehicle can have screen after screen of controls for all sorts of purposes without cluttering up the cockpit. ...
Click to expand...
In a high-workload environment where lives are on the line, what's needed isn't flexibility or a bare cockpit. It's dedicated controls that do what you expect them to do, every time, that you can actuate immediately by feel alone without having to look or trying steady one's finger above a specific pixel during a bumpy car ride or worse yet drill down through multiple layers of such.

While the iPhone's keyboard interface is the right tool for the job, I certainly wouldn't replace my mechanical keyboard for serious typing.
 
Nubo said:
abasile said:
I feel that the Tesla touchscreen is far superior to the abundance of manual knobs, sliders, buttons, etc. that you'll find on other cars. It offers so much more flexibility, as the vehicle can have screen after screen of controls for all sorts of purposes without cluttering up the cockpit. ...
Click to expand...
In a high-workload environment where lives are on the line, what's needed isn't flexibility or a bare cockpit. It's dedicated controls that do what you expect them to do, every time, that you can actuate immediately by feel alone without having to look or trying steady one's finger above a specific pixel during a bumpy car ride or worse yet drill down through multiple layers of such.

While the iPhone's keyboard interface is the right tool for the job, I certainly wouldn't replace my mechanical keyboard for serious typing.
Click to expand...
+1 on the Human Factors, although the ability to map to a steering wheel control is helpful, as would be verbal commands. There are few situations in a car that have the same high-workload environment as say an instrument approach in an a/c. Even so, given the choice I'll take dedicated physical controls as described in the bolded section any day, until such time as someone can demonstrate that configurable controls are superior in reaction time and accuracy, and don't require me to think about what the control does at this particular moment. It's been a long time since I had a girlfriend working in Human Factors whose conference journals I used to read, but AFAIA the research shows the opposite to be the case. A smart phone's control interface is great, provided you don't have to be simultaneously looking at something else and making control actions unrelated to the phone while using it, using extra mental cycles in the process. As that's the very definition of human driving, I'll pass until full autonomy arrives and it won't matter if I never look at the road. The Zombie Apocalypse is already here, but they shouldn't be driving cars:

AAEAAQAAAAAAAAdpAAAAJDAwNGM5NTM0LWJkN2YtNDgyNC04NTRkLThmNDQxYTljYmJlNw.jpg
 
Nubo said:
abasile said:
I feel that the Tesla touchscreen is far superior to the abundance of manual knobs, sliders, buttons, etc. that you'll find on other cars. It offers so much more flexibility, as the vehicle can have screen after screen of controls for all sorts of purposes without cluttering up the cockpit. ...
Click to expand...
In a high-workload environment where lives are on the line, what's needed isn't flexibility or a bare cockpit. It's dedicated controls that do what you expect them to do, every time, that you can actuate immediately by feel alone without having to look or trying steady one's finger above a specific pixel during a bumpy car ride or worse yet drill down through multiple layers of such.

While the iPhone's keyboard interface is the right tool for the job, I certainly wouldn't replace my mechanical keyboard for serious typing.
Click to expand...


Sorry, there is nothing on my S that takes any extra effort to touch, the turn signals are not on the touch screen by the way and the car works so well on it's own I fumbled on other cars. My Tacoma is more challenging to operate than a Tesla. The thing you use when driving are on the wheel or are much larger than those on other cars on the screen. Have you ever spent any time driving a Tesla at length? I would bet all cars begin to follow this model. There is nothing that is less safe on the Tesla operationally.
 

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