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Durandal said:
I think the extra thought comes from thinking about how to phrase the command as many voice command systems are not very intuitive.
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I don't know about others, but the most non-driving thing I do when driving is changing what I'm listening to (skipping ads on podcasts or changing songs/artists etc). Those voice commands work ok - even with Android Auto (most of the time). Even Volt doesn't have any physical buttons for these common tasks.

As to temperature control - I probably change them once in 6 months. Don't need buttons for that.

Need commands for simple climate control options like - start AC, stop AC, Start Heater, Stop Heater, Start anti-fog, stop anti-fog. (They may even be there already in Volt, but haven't tried). But these functions I do MUCH less often than audio controls .

There are simply no buttons to easily select an album among the thousands available. It is either touch screen or voice. Choose your poison.
 
evnow said:
Durandal said:
I think the extra thought comes from thinking about how to phrase the command as many voice command systems are not very intuitive.
Click to expand...
I don't know about others, but the most non-driving thing I do when driving is changing what I'm listening to (skipping ads on podcasts or changing songs/artists etc). Those voice commands work ok - even with Android Auto (most of the time). Even Volt doesn't have any physical buttons for these common tasks.
Click to expand...
As the research paper I posed upthread (at least I think it was in this thread) shows, such commands involve far more distraction than simpler ones. Basic voice commands probably don't add a great deal of task loading compared to manual ones, but I'm not up on that research so can't say for certain.

evnow said:
As to temperature control - I probably change them once in 6 months. Don't need buttons for that.

Need commands for simple climate control options like - start AC, stop AC, Start Heater, Stop Heater, Start anti-fog, stop anti-fog. (They may even be there already in Volt, but haven't tried). But these functions I do MUCH less often than audio controls .

There are simply no buttons to easily select an album among the thousands available. It is either touch screen or voice. Choose your poison
Click to expand...
Seeing as how my hearing sucks so bad now I can't tell one artist from another or often what song's playing, I've basically had to abandon listening to music, so that's no longer an issue. But we obviously use HVAC controls very differently, and I take it you're one of the group that likes ACC, while I'm definitely in the other camp. Depending on the nature of the steering wheel controls , what can be mapped to them and as others have mentioned, what you might have to do without to get them, HVAC on those may or may not be okay, and the only way to say for certain is to try them. I still prefer dedicated controls for simplicity, reliability, and ease of repair, but can live with programmable controls if they're well done (i.e. intuitive).
 
evnow said:
There are simply no buttons to easily select an album among the thousands available. It is either touch screen or voice. Choose your poison.
Click to expand...

This statement gets to the crux of the issue.

Selecting albums & songs from a library of thousands is what I would call "new functionality". It is a complex operation and provides a level of functionality that frankly would require too many specialized buttons, displays that would not be intuitive.

I can think of one other function that may be approaching vestigial status: the radio tuner dial. While an actual "dial" is certainly intuitive and simple enough that it can be implemented as a dial, it doesn't represent how we use the infotainment systems in our car these days. So you could make an argument for ditching that particular control (I know there are some hard core FM radio junkies that will disagree here).

But certain functions (adjusting temp up & down for example) are so simple that the most intuitive interface is a dial or a slider....and a real one, not a virtual one on a screen that you have to hunt & peck for or get into that "mode" on the screen and hit a relatively small target, or maybe remove your gloves to use.

And sure, maybe voice commands could work, but let's take the example of adjusting the volume of the music. Am I going to have to call out a specific number between 1 and 100? If I say "volume up" is it going to jump up by 1? 10? How do I do fine vs. coarse control? Do I need to hit a button to get into voice control mode in the first place, and does it mute the audio during voice commands so it can understand me? How do I do fine vs. coarse control? When I'm adjusting the volume in the car, the ability to fine tune it with touch without taking my eyes off the road is extremely important.

Now I realize that clearly audio volume is a prime candidate for steering wheel control for this purpose, but it illustrates the point I'm trying to make which is that sometimes complicated GUIs or voice commands are the answer, but for some basic functions, a good old fashioned dedicated knob or slider is really the best solution. And then I don't have to worry about whether the command is "anti-fog" as you called it or "defrost" as I call it! ;)
 
^^^

I still have yet to use any voice system that doesn't piss me right off in very short order.

You should see how bluetooth is on my toyota sienna. It would almost make you take a gas can to the car. I was trying to set it up a couple weeks back and when I'd give it the name of the phone it would say "Sorry, that sounds too much like". I eventually had to literally use an expletive as my new phone's name because everything I said "sounded too much like".

Any time I get voice prompt on any phone system I just mumble and smash buttons until I get to a real human. I'd rather have a person who barely speaks english than a voice control system. I still believe they will eventually get good enough.

I drove a tesla earlier this month and the guy said what song? So we said our song name (very, very popular song), and the system kept coming up with the right artist but the totally wrong song name. He had to finally type it in. That's also why I gave up using siri to dictate texts for me. It's just better to type because it works 100% of the time.
 
EatsShootsandLeafs said:
^^^
....

I drove a tesla earlier this month and the guy said what song? So we said our song name (very, very popular song), and the system kept coming up with the right artist but the totally wrong song name. He had to finally type it in. That's also why I gave up using siri to dictate texts for me. It's just better to type because it works 100% of the time.
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Actually, that likely wasn't due to not identifying the song correctly.
The streaming music system, currently, when you say "play [song name] by [artist name]". Is very good at playing that specific song. The problem is, it creates a streaming radio station based on that song.
The first time you ask for a specific song, in my experience, it gets it right 100% of the time. However, any subsequent requests for the same song will start playing the same streaming station, which is almost never on that exact song.
For songs I listen to often I have set playlists. Album names work very well. Unfortunately song names don't work more than once.
I'd love to see that fixed, but since I haven't found anything else as close to it, I'm happy with it.
 
Zythryn said:
The first time you ask for a specific song, in my experience, it gets it right 100% of the time. However, any subsequent requests for the same song will start playing the same streaming station, which is almost never on that exact song.
For songs I listen to often I have set playlists. Album names work very well. Unfortunately song names don't work more than once.
I'd love to see that fixed, but since I haven't found anything else as close to it, I'm happy with it.
Click to expand...
This is the standard behavior of a free-tier Slacker account, which is what the car uses by default. You can fix this by paying for a premium Slacker account and then using that login/password in the car.
 
jlv said:
Zythryn said:
The first time you ask for a specific song, in my experience, it gets it right 100% of the time. However, any subsequent requests for the same song will start playing the same streaming station, which is almost never on that exact song.
For songs I listen to often I have set playlists. Album names work very well. Unfortunately song names don't work more than once.
I'd love to see that fixed, but since I haven't found anything else as close to it, I'm happy with it.
Click to expand...
This is the standard behavior of a free-tier Slacker account, which is what the car uses by default. You can fix this by paying for a premium Slacker account and then using that login/password in the car.
Click to expand...

Unfortunately it seems to be the same when signed into the premium account. Although it has been quite some time since I chacked...
 
I remembered that slightly incorrectly. It partially works...
https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/slacker-radio-premium-experience.87833/
You cannot use the backward track button when listening to a station even with Premium. It only works for playlists.
Click to expand...
If I hadn't starting using a Spotify family plan last year I'd probably get Slacker, but at this point...
 
lpickup said:
And then I don't have to worry about whether the command is "anti-fog" as you called it or "defrost" as I call it! ;)
Click to expand...

It doesn't have to be one or the other. They can map a hundred words to the same function.

Volume situation can be handled similarly. Just think of what you would tell someone to do it, instead of you doing it yourself. "Increase the volume a bit" or "I can' hear that. Can you make it higher" ?

I've been impressed with what Amazon has done. Though I don't use Echo (yet) - I've heard very good reports of it. It can pickup commands from the other side of the room in noisy environments (even when the song is playing). Amazon tablets consistently recognize what my toddlers tell it to play - and the competitors (like MS or Google) hardly ever do. No, I don't work for Amazon.

The reason voice commands on autos suck is that they don't go through continuous improvements.

BTW, Amazon Music when used through Android Auto (in Volt) picks the songs, albums, artists correct 90%+ of the time. (Hello by Adele vs Hello by Lionel Ritchie for eg).

Ofcourse Amazon music still has issues when it comes to Indian music. So, I can see how these systems probably suck in non-US context.
 
evnow said:
It doesn't have to be one or the other. They can map a hundred words to the same function.
Click to expand...

They can...doesn't mean they will...

evnow said:
Volume situation can be handled similarly. Just think of what you would tell someone to do it, instead of you doing it yourself. "Increase the volume a bit" or "I can' hear that. Can you make it higher" ?
Click to expand...

FIrst of all, that actually sounds pretty cumbersome compared to turning a knob (even pushing a volume up/down button is less convenient than twisting a dial). Not to mention that it is very disruptive to whatever you are listening to (particularly if when going into voice command mode the volume is lowered/muted as I think I've heard elsewhere), not to mention the other occupants of the car. For example when my wife is asleep in the passenger seat, I'm not sure she would appreciate me asking the car aloud if I it could adjust the temperature a bit higher or lower, or adjust the delay on the intermittent wipers, or something like that.

I'll reiterate: for certain functions (in my opinion) the most simple and intuitive "interface" is a simple knob or button, not a voice command. You may feel differently, and you are entitled to that opinion, but I am entitled to mine, and it would be a really tough sell to convince me that voice commands or a touch screen interface are an improvement over simple dials/buttons.
 
lpickup said:
I'll reiterate: for certain functions (in my opinion) the most simple and intuitive "interface" is a simple knob or button, not a voice command. You may feel differently, and you are entitled to that opinion, but I am entitled to mine, and it would be a really tough sell to convince me that voice commands or a touch screen interface are an improvement over simple dials/buttons.
Click to expand...
Knobs and Buttons are just a historical technical accident. Didn't have to be that way. Nothing "intuitive" about it. Try it with toddlers.
 
evnow said:
lpickup said:
I'll reiterate: for certain functions (in my opinion) the most simple and intuitive "interface" is a simple knob or button, not a voice command. You may feel differently, and you are entitled to that opinion, but I am entitled to mine, and it would be a really tough sell to convince me that voice commands or a touch screen interface are an improvement over simple dials/buttons.
Click to expand...
Knobs and Buttons are just a historical technical accident. Didn't have to be that way. Nothing "intuitive" about it. Try it with toddlers.
Click to expand...
On an old blackberry device I could type crazy fast with my thumbs because of the tactical feel. Can't get half as fast with a screen with no tactical feel. Voice commands could be more useful if it works reliably in a loud environment with uncommon controls. I doubt voice will be as easy as buttons on the steering wheel, unless we are talking about driverless.
 
DanCar said:
On an old blackberry device I could type crazy fast with my thumbs because of the tactical feel. Can't get half as fast with a screen with no tactical feel. Voice commands could be more useful if it works reliably in a loud environment with uncommon controls. I doubt voice will be as easy as buttons on the steering wheel, unless we are talking about driverless.
Click to expand...
I've seen youngsters type crazy fast using gesture/swipe keyboards.

All said and done - natural language (voice) will remain the most natural input - duh ! Perfected over 50,000 years.
 
evnow said:
DanCar said:
On an old blackberry device I could type crazy fast with my thumbs because of the tactical feel. Can't get half as fast with a screen with no tactical feel. Voice commands could be more useful if it works reliably in a loud environment with uncommon controls. I doubt voice will be as easy as buttons on the steering wheel, unless we are talking about driverless.
Click to expand...
I've seen youngsters type crazy fast using gesture/swipe keyboards.

All said and done - natural language (voice) will remain the most natural input - duh ! Perfected over 50,000 years.
Click to expand...
If voice input where so much better, we'd be talking to our computers instead of typing, mousing and swiping.
 
DanCar said:
If voice input where so much better, we'd be talking to our computers instead of typing, mousing and swiping.
Click to expand...

We'd be talking to EVERYTHING! We wouldn't have TV remotes. My toaster oven would not have a dial to set the temperature & timer. My washing machine would not have a dial and buttons to select the mode. There would be no light switches in my home. There would not be a doorbell by my front door--visitors would just speak "knock knock" I suppose.

Certain functions are simply better suited to simple interfaces. Voice is a method of communication that is way overkill for many (but not all) functions you would want to access in a car, and like it or not, but over reliance on voice is going to turn at least some (and maybe many) people away.
 
Just in case anyone might be interested in the actual thread topic...

Tesla Model 3: Exclusive first look at Tesla’s new battery pack architecture

...The standard 50 kWh Model 3 battery pack is made of 2,976 of those cells in groups of 31 cells per “brick”. The bricks go into 4 separate modules (2 modules of 23 bricks and 2 modules of 25 bricks).

That pack is going into production later this year. Currently, Tesla is producing a 74 kWh ‘long range’ battery pack, which consists of 4416 cells in groups of 46 cells per brick and the same brick distribution in the 4 modules...
Click to expand...
https://electrek.co/2017/08/24/tesla-model-3-exclusive-battery-pack-architecture/
 
lpickup said:
evnow said:
There are simply no buttons to easily select an album among the thousands available. It is either touch screen or voice. Choose your poison.
Click to expand...

This statement gets to the crux of the issue.

Selecting albums & songs from a library of thousands is what I would call "new functionality". It is a complex operation and provides a level of functionality that frankly would require too many specialized buttons, displays that would not be intuitive.

I can think of one other function that may be approaching vestigial status: the radio tuner dial. While an actual "dial" is certainly intuitive and simple enough that it can be implemented as a dial, it doesn't represent how we use the infotainment systems in our car these days. So you could make an argument for ditching that particular control (I know there are some hard core FM radio junkies that will disagree here).

But certain functions (adjusting temp up & down for example) are so simple that the most intuitive interface is a dial or a slider....and a real one, not a virtual one on a screen that you have to hunt & peck for or get into that "mode" on the screen and hit a relatively small target, or maybe remove your gloves to use.

And sure, maybe voice commands could work, but let's take the example of adjusting the volume of the music. Am I going to have to call out a specific number between 1 and 100? If I say "volume up" is it going to jump up by 1? 10? How do I do fine vs. coarse control? Do I need to hit a button to get into voice control mode in the first place, and does it mute the audio during voice commands so it can understand me? How do I do fine vs. coarse control? When I'm adjusting the volume in the car, the ability to fine tune it with touch without taking my eyes off the road is extremely important.

Now I realize that clearly audio volume is a prime candidate for steering wheel control for this purpose, but it illustrates the point I'm trying to make which is that sometimes complicated GUIs or voice commands are the answer, but for some basic functions, a good old fashioned dedicated knob or slider is really the best solution. And then I don't have to worry about whether the command is "anti-fog" as you called it or "defrost" as I call it! ;)
Click to expand...

I like the TS interface better for any music functions. The climate controls are vastly superior to my 2016 Toyota, I set the temp and I'm done. I have never used a defrost button heat button, etc. The Tesla climate does this all well on auto, it has auto defrost! You can ask for any song or artist via voice or use preset icons. I think the vast majority of consumers will prefer the Tesla UI after use. On my recent 1000 mile trip I used the volume on my steering and the temp twice. A few selections of music on the large icons or by voice. I think that the only people that will be be beating the TS dead horse will be small group of people. The entire climate control UI discussion is strange, this is the one thing I interface the least with and it's the most automated.
 
EVDRIVER said:
The entire climate control UI discussion is strange, this is the one thing I interface the least with and it's the most automated.
Click to expand...
Yup

My only exception is that I often use vent only. I'm not worried about the interface.
 
lpickup said:
DanCar said:
If voice input where so much better, we'd be talking to our computers instead of typing, mousing and swiping.
Click to expand...
We'd be talking to EVERYTHING! We wouldn't have TV remotes. My toaster oven would not have a dial to set the temperature & timer. My washing machine would not have a dial and buttons to select the mode. There would be no light switches in my home. There would not be a doorbell by my front door--visitors would just speak "knock knock" I suppose.

Certain functions are simply better suited to simple interfaces. Voice is a method of communication that is way overkill for many (but not all) functions you would want to access in a car, and like it or not, but over reliance on voice is going to turn at least some (and maybe many) people away.
Click to expand...
The voice input technology is getting better. There will be TVs announced at CES 2018 with Alexa always listening and or other assistants. I think it is coming to microwaves and other devices 5 years down the road. As it relates to Model 3, maybe a little ahead of the technology curve. First versions of TVs with voice input probably won't be half as good as later versions that handle voice input.

I can envision a camera looking down in the kitchen and knows that you are trying to pop popcorn. Will automatically set the microwave timer appropriately. For Model 3 would be nice if could listen and watch my children in the back seat and notices if they are too hot or cold and adjust temperature accordingly without anyone asking. If someone known is reaching for the glovebox, it knows to open it rather than going through the touch screen menus.
 
lpickup said:
DanCar said:
If voice input where so much better, we'd be talking to our computers instead of typing, mousing and swiping.
Click to expand...

We'd be talking to EVERYTHING! We wouldn't have TV remotes. My toaster oven would not have a dial to set the temperature & timer. My washing machine would not have a dial and buttons to select the mode. There would be no light switches in my home. There would not be a doorbell by my front door--visitors would just speak "knock knock" I suppose.

Certain functions are simply better suited to simple interfaces. Voice is a method of communication that is way overkill for many (but not all) functions you would want to access in a car, and like it or not, but over reliance on voice is going to turn at least some (and maybe many) people away.
Click to expand...


I guess you have not noticed that voice technology is getting better and lower cost every day and is being adopted in more and more applications. You also may have noticed that everything you mention is now voice enabled however it is not everywhere yet as a result of cost, economies of scale and improvements to the recognition. Adoption will increase quickly as the cost and reliability increases. Electronics that cost thousands before are less than a $1 today. If you live long enough you will see autos will have no screen other than to show media and as a backup, I'll bet you on that one. I'll also bet you talking toasters are on the way sooner than you think. I already can talk to every light in my home.
 

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