Interleaf
Posts: 66
Joined: Mon Dec 13, 2010 10:30 pm
Delivery Date: 20 Jun 2011
Leaf Number: 5000
Location: Northern CA

Re: Is CARB eliminating the category of MSEV (minimal rex serial EV)?

Sun Aug 27, 2017 3:35 am

Oils4AsphaultOnly wrote:Regulations don't _dictate_ consumer behavior. A MSEV doesn't prevent a consumer from just filling up their Rex and essentially drive on gas. Just like how volt owners can run on 95% electric or 0% (early fleet volt users), the same can happen with MSEV. CARB is right to NOT classify them as BEV. Zero-emissions should mean "0", not "close enough".

But this is patently wrong. It is wrong to assign 100% credit to a BEV and 0% to an MSEV that generates only 5% of the exhaust of an ICE. "Zero Emission" has not been mentioned in the Bible, so it is not a sacred thing. MSEV should receive at least 95% of the credit or even more for beating the path to BEVs. There is no way to run on gas with an MSEV all day. It does not have enough power that you could cruise on the highway or keep yourself warm on a cold day. The best use of an MSEV is to find a charge station when the MSEV runs out of electrical charge.
SL-QC, #5000+ blue - Delivery June 20, 2011 the day after the Calif. $5000 rebate ran out to $2500. Coincidence? Nah, dealer ***** Nissan is front-running.

LeftieBiker
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Re: Is CARB eliminating the category of MSEV (minimal rex serial EV)?

Sun Aug 27, 2017 11:40 am

PHEVs already get partial credit, so you not only don't have an argument, you don't understand the reality of the situation.
2013 "Brilliant Silver" SV with Premium Package and no QC, and 2009 Vectrix VX-1 with 18 Leaf cells.

The most offensive, tasteless phrase in use here is "Pulled the trigger." I no longer respond to posts that use it.

Interleaf
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Joined: Mon Dec 13, 2010 10:30 pm
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Leaf Number: 5000
Location: Northern CA

Re: Is CARB eliminating the category of MSEV (minimal rex serial EV)?

Sun Aug 27, 2017 12:46 pm

LeftieBiker wrote:PHEVs already get partial credit, so you not only don't have an argument, you don't understand the reality of the situation.

The argument has moved well beyond what you say. Why don't you follow the debate? Some leftie folks are saying that if you are not a BEV (0% emissions), then you should get very little credit. What is the amount of "partial credit" for a PHEV? 30%? Is it fair or is too low for a SEV/MSEV?
I contend that an MSEV (which is not a PHEV, BTW) should receive 95% credit not 30% credit. Because it produces only 5% of the emissions of an ICE. But some others are saying that we have to penalize SMEV for producing 5% and not 0%. A puritanical approach. Why? Because it does not fit the politically correct language "zero emissions". So in order to arrive at the "zero emission " nirvana, they are willing to sacrifice MSEV (with only 5% emissions) which is not only more sensible and rational, but also paves the way to early EV adoption.
SL-QC, #5000+ blue - Delivery June 20, 2011 the day after the Calif. $5000 rebate ran out to $2500. Coincidence? Nah, dealer ***** Nissan is front-running.

rmay635703
Posts: 419
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2011 7:43 pm

Re: Is CARB eliminating the category of MSEV (minimal rex serial EV)?

Sun Aug 27, 2017 3:43 pm

Interleaf wrote:
LeftieBiker wrote:PHEVs already get partial credit, so you not only don't have an argument, you don't understand the reality of the situation.

The argument has moved well beyond what you say. Why don't you follow the debate? Some leftie folks are saying that if you are not a BEV (0% emissions), then you should get very little credit. What is the amount of "partial credit" for a PHEV? 30%? Is it fair or is too low for a SEV/MSEV?
I contend that an MSEV (which is not a PHEV, BTW) should receive 95% credit not 30% credit. Because it produces only 5% of the emissions of an ICE. But some others are saying that we have to penalize SMEV for producing 5% and not 0%. A puritanical approach. Why? Because it does not fit the politically correct language "zero emissions". So in order to arrive at the "zero emission " nirvana, they are willing to sacrifice MSEV (with only 5% emissions) which is not only more sensible and rational, but also paves the way to early EV adoption.


The EV range is the best predictor of how much gas is used, most PEOPLE who buy a new phev do so to run electrically, business not as much.

Just because people's behavior sometimes doesn't make sense doesn't mean there should be no benefit for an EV capable car, my belief is registration and gas tax benefits should accompany EV range not a "one time tax rebate "

Heck around here the one leaf owners other car is a large 1ton gas pickup that is driven daily, he likely uses more gas than my comutacar and Volt do but by the logic here he should get more benefit because he owns a pure EV, even though he likely makes exponentially more pollution than I do.

Oils4AsphaultOnly
Gold Member
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Re: Is CARB eliminating the category of MSEV (minimal rex serial EV)?

Mon Aug 28, 2017 9:02 am

Interleaf wrote:
LeftieBiker wrote:PHEVs already get partial credit, so you not only don't have an argument, you don't understand the reality of the situation.

The argument has moved well beyond what you say. Why don't you follow the debate? Some leftie folks are saying that if you are not a BEV (0% emissions), then you should get very little credit. What is the amount of "partial credit" for a PHEV? 30%? Is it fair or is too low for a SEV/MSEV?
I contend that an MSEV (which is not a PHEV, BTW) should receive 95% credit not 30% credit. Because it produces only 5% of the emissions of an ICE. But some others are saying that we have to penalize SMEV for producing 5% and not 0%. A puritanical approach. Why? Because it does not fit the politically correct language "zero emissions". So in order to arrive at the "zero emission " nirvana, they are willing to sacrifice MSEV (with only 5% emissions) which is not only more sensible and rational, but also paves the way to early EV adoption.


Stop moving the goal-post. A MSEV gets emissions credit. Period. That's the usage argument. Whether or not CARB should've permitted PHEV credits to count against ZEV credits is the argument you should be having and have a good case for.

But instead, you're arguing classification. An MSEV isn't a ZEV, A ZEV vehicle guarantees ZERO tailpipe emissions, not 5%, 2%, or even 0.5%. An MSEVs can not _guarantee_ 100% ZERO emissions. We don't call an okapi a zebra, just because it has 98% of the same characteristics right down to the distinctive stripes.

We don't classify pickup trucks with a crew-cab as a hatchback, even though they'll mostly be used as commuter vehicles and can seat 5 comfortable with a useful "trunk". It has nothing to do with what the "leftie folks" are saying.
[2013 leaf traded for 2016 leaf S30:
build date: Sep '16 :: purchased: Nov '16
1 May 2017 - 7300 miles & 363 GIDs
6 Sep 2017 - 13k miles & 359 GIDs
26 Oct 2017 - 15.5k miles & 344 GIDs
26 Nov 2017 - 17.1k miles & 332 GIDs]

Interleaf
Posts: 66
Joined: Mon Dec 13, 2010 10:30 pm
Delivery Date: 20 Jun 2011
Leaf Number: 5000
Location: Northern CA

Re: Is CARB eliminating the category of MSEV (minimal rex serial EV)?

Thu Nov 16, 2017 11:33 pm

Oils4AsphaultOnly wrote:But instead, you're arguing classification. An MSEV isn't a ZEV, A ZEV vehicle guarantees ZERO tailpipe emissions, not 5%, 2%, or even 0.5%. An MSEVs can not _guarantee_ 100% ZERO emissions. We don't call an okapi a zebra, just because it has 98% of the same characteristics right down to the distinctive stripes..


This argument is useless. It is a language based argument and not a scientific argument. The real world is analog and works by scientific principles, and not by linguistic categories (that lefties prefer) or conventions. If an MSEV generates only 1% of the emissions, then it better receive 99% of the credits, and not 30% of credits which is what PHEVs receive. Otherwise, it is called "injustice", and misallocation of resources, or simply a wrong regulation. Let's face it, such wrongful application of credits will increase pollution, GHG emissions, and the slow adoption of EVs.
SL-QC, #5000+ blue - Delivery June 20, 2011 the day after the Calif. $5000 rebate ran out to $2500. Coincidence? Nah, dealer ***** Nissan is front-running.

Oils4AsphaultOnly
Gold Member
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Re: Is CARB eliminating the category of MSEV (minimal rex serial EV)?

Fri Nov 17, 2017 12:35 am

Interleaf wrote:
Oils4AsphaultOnly wrote:But instead, you're arguing classification. An MSEV isn't a ZEV, A ZEV vehicle guarantees ZERO tailpipe emissions, not 5%, 2%, or even 0.5%. An MSEVs can not _guarantee_ 100% ZERO emissions. We don't call an okapi a zebra, just because it has 98% of the same characteristics right down to the distinctive stripes..


This argument is useless. It is a language based argument and not a scientific argument. The real world is analog and works by scientific principles, and not by linguistic categories (that lefties prefer) or conventions. If an MSEV generates only 1% of the emissions, then it better receive 99% of the credits, and not 30% of credits which is what PHEVs receive. Otherwise, it is called "injustice", and misallocation of resources, or simply a wrong regulation. Let's face it, such wrongful application of credits will increase pollution, GHG emissions, and the slow adoption of EVs.


Says the poster who completely ignored the okapi reference. Okapi's are NOT zebras! That's a scientific FACT. MSEV's are NOT ZEV's, that is also a scientific fact.

Using the term "scientific" in your statement does NOT make it so.

Okay mr. analog, how do you determine what "percentage" of zero emissions that MSEV generates? Can you guarantee that if your neighbor bought an i3 Rex that he/she would only consume gasoline for only 0-2% of their driven miles? How about less than 5%? You can't, not without allocating resources to some sort of monitoring/accounting system so that the classification (and its credits) doesn't get misused. This was discussed before, but you still don't seem to get it.

There is nothing "judicious" nor scientific about what you're proposing.
[2013 leaf traded for 2016 leaf S30:
build date: Sep '16 :: purchased: Nov '16
1 May 2017 - 7300 miles & 363 GIDs
6 Sep 2017 - 13k miles & 359 GIDs
26 Oct 2017 - 15.5k miles & 344 GIDs
26 Nov 2017 - 17.1k miles & 332 GIDs]

SageBrush
Posts: 1490
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Delivery Date: 13 Feb 2017
Location: Colorado

Re: Is CARB eliminating the category of MSEV (minimal rex serial EV)?

Fri Nov 17, 2017 6:56 am

Oils4AsphaultOnly wrote:[This was discussed before, but you still don't seem to get it.

He doesn't *want* to understand.

You might as well argue with a Trumple-dork about AGW
2013 Model 'S' with QC & rear-view camera
Bought off-lease Jan 2017 from N. California with 63.9 Ahr after 22k miles
Car is now enjoying an easy life in Colorado

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